Russian Hacking (You People are Idiots)

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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
How many voters changed their choice for President due to this "hacking"?

It's perfectly clear that Repubs used the information to serve that purpose. How well it worked is basically unknowable other than to say Democratic turnout was greatly reduced this cycle. They tore down Clinton well enough that Trump barely won.

They're still doing so as if that justifies itself retroactively.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Uhm. Are you equating a political stance and political negotiation to a covert criminal act? That is patently ridiculous.
Russia is a sovereign country, not subject to US laws. The only barrier to foreign countries interfering with US elections is vigilance of the American people and the people who voted for Trump don't care. They are fine with a Russian supported president. That's all there is to it, really.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
It's perfectly clear that Repubs used the information to serve that purpose. How well it worked is basically unknowable other than to say Democratic turnout was greatly reduced this cycle. They tore down Clinton well enough that Trump barely won.

They're still doing so as if that justifies itself retroactively.
It's clear that the Democrats didn't have a candidate that motivated people to get out and vote. Maybe they listened to people like yourself and others in the forum who stated that Clinton had a lock on the election.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
It's perfectly clear that Repubs used the information to serve that purpose. How well it worked is basically unknowable other than to say Democratic turnout was greatly reduced this cycle. They tore down Clinton well enough that Trump barely won.

They're still doing so as if that justifies itself retroactively.

Exceeding the 270 minimum electoral vote number by 36 isn't a barely won. You need to go see red on the final map again. If you pull loony California out of the mix, Trump would have also won the popular vote.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,026
2,879
136
Russia is a sovereign country, not subject to US laws. The only barrier to foreign countries interfering with US elections is vigilance of the American people and the people who voted for Trump don't care. They are fine with a Russian supported president. That's all there is to it, really.

There is such a thing as international law.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,333
1,889
126
It's clear that the Democrats didn't have a candidate that motivated people to get out and vote. Maybe they listened to people like yourself and others in the forum who stated that Clinton had a lock on the election.
That's true enough. While I seldom get excited about the people I vote for, this was a factor I discussed at lunch today with a friend. Just for all the extended visibility, a history of smears and accumulated baggage, she meant more risk.

But there are aspects of the political culture and the general national culture which brought us to this day. For instance, there's a smorgasbord attitude about citizen-voter choices. Corollary is the illusion that you can simply say thumbs up or thumbs down, that's the extent of your responsibility and since you never 'get what you want anyway," who cares?

Sometimes, the only wise choice is the one you didn't like. I just don't understand -- despite the economic insecurity and other middle America frustrations, why the gurr-eat exceptional American people would choose such a low-life disgusting slug for their high office.

Must not be so gurrr-eat or exceptional. But this isn't going to be "Great Again." Signs? 350+ Carrier employees blindsided in their Xmas spending, suddenly told the income would stop flowing after all. Do you think that PIG gave a God Damn about those people? No. It was all about him.
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
So have any politicians given a damn about all the Americans who lost their jobs?? No, but they sure talked a good game to get elected/re-elected

You might want to back off stewing so much over Trump becoming President, it can't be good for your health
 

Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,270
103
106
I am fatigued from keeping up with the other thread. This one will be to discuss a different take on this.

It seems that intelligence is quite confident that Russia orchestrated cyber attacks against the US election. This is true independent of any intent or efficacy in undermining a particular candidate or party and changing the votes of the election.

The reaction has been one of divisive partisan politics wherein Americans' main focus is on whether Trump's presidency is legit.

Wake up people. Russia orchestrated an attack on our political system. This is an act of war. In saying so I am not calling for us to declare war on Russia, merely for us to see plainly the aggressive act against the US. Not against Clinton. Not against Democrats. Not against Republicans. Against the US government.

Seeing this as an opportunity to correct an injustice in our election results or otherwise to defend against the notion that the attacks may discredit those results is wrong. We are Americans first. Russia attacked America. America should respond to Russia. When parties respond to each other, even seeing it as an opportunity to discredit each other, we are taking responsibility for Russia's attack. I don't think they could have set it up any better.

Discuss.

I feel reasonably comfortable with the conclusion that the Russians tried to influence the election. What is not at all clear is if their efforts actually had any influence on the election at all. What evidence do we have to support that? I'm not convinced dnc emails had any impact on the results anyway.

I'm good with a full investigation, but there's not really anything we can do with the Russians.

I agree that we should treat it as a foreign government trying to meddle and that we are Americans first. It's hard to set aside partisan bickering though when many are trying to use the hacks as justification for discrediting Trump and even for overturning the election results.

If you say it's an attempt to meddle that we shouldn't allow, I'm on board, but when it's presented as a reason why Trump shouldn't be president or is somehow discredited, i call bullshit.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
There is such a thing as international law.
International law doesn't care about elections, how rigged they are, or whether countries even have them.
Putin could have went on US television and said, "Vote for Trump, he'll be my puppet," and Trump supporters would have said something like "Well, at least he's not PC" and voted exactly the same way. You can't blame it on Russia that Trump supporters are stupid. It would be malpractice for Russia to not exploit it for their own goals. Can you imagine if the US had an opportunity to make Russia into an American client state by installing a puppet president with a few cheap hacks and fake news, especially if the Russian people were gullible and happy to fall for it because it fit well with what they wanted to believe anyways? Would that not be a much better thing to do than spending hundreds of billions on defense to prepare for a potential military confrontation?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Exceeding the 270 minimum electoral vote number by 36 isn't a barely won. You need to go see red on the final map again. If you pull loony California out of the mix, Trump would have also won the popular vote.

Trump's victory margin in the EC ranks 46th out of 56-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...dential_elections_by_Electoral_College_margin

That win hinged on ~80K votes in 3 states.

Trump's win is entirely legitimate. Let's not pretend it isn't the result of undemocratic quirks in the EC system that rarely manifest themselves. Let's not pretend that it expresses the will of the majority. Let's not pretend that it's a strong mandate for the radical right agenda that's coming up.

The saddest part is that people likely to suffer the most live in red states that are highly dependent on federal funding. All in the name of Capitalism & more wealth for the wealthy.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
It's clear that the Democrats didn't have a candidate that motivated people to get out and vote. Maybe they listened to people like yourself and others in the forum who stated that Clinton had a lock on the election.

I said Trump as president was completely absurd & stand by that. There's a lot of absurdity in the world, largely the result of propaganda in general. I also encourage everybody to vote every chance I get.

I am amazed & dismayed that lies, distortions, innuendo & insult have won out. I thought we were smarter than that. Most of us actually were, as a matter of fact.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,040
24,351
136
Exceeding the 270 minimum electoral vote number by 36 isn't a barely won. You need to go see red on the final map again. If you pull loony California out of the mix, Trump would have also won the popular vote.

Actually yes, that's a pretty close race.

To anyone with a brain that is.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,162
136
Hey.
If Putin hacking Hillary actually did get Trump elected, don't expect Mitch McConnell to get his panties all in a knot over it.
Obama is still the president, but obviously Trump is now running the show.
And as far as Obama giving that hacking outrage speech today, I doubt many Trump people really care whether or not Ronald Reagan is turning in his grave over this.
Ronald Reagan is dead and already buried deep down within his grave.
Trump, on the other hand, is busy digging his.

Nothing an outgoing president like Obama could say or do, especially now, is going to matter to very many people out there.
Certainly not to those that voted Trump.
And if this hacking thing had ever been foreseen as the game changer with this election, Obama should have and could have long long ago brought the full wrath of the US government down upon Putin's head.
Doing so now, especially with only words, well....
Like I said, Trump is now running this show.

Least we forget... republicans are about to wipe clean, zero format for us techie people, all and every evidence that a president Obama had ever existed.

And that brings me to "term limits".
Mitch McConnell has hated Obama from day one, even more so than Donald Trump has hated Obama.
So now some 8+ years later Mitch still holds that same grudge and still totally hell bent on full and total political annihilation of Barack Obama.
When some old white crotchety senator that has been in congress since Moses walked the earth should hold a grudge after all these years, it is time for that senator to go bye bye.
And Mitch McDonnell is exactly why we need term limits.
You could even call Mitch the poster boy for term limits.

I know I know, some will say that candidate Donald Trump has spoke of supporting term limits.
But when that same Donald Trump also appoints the wife of that same old white crotchety senator to a high cabinet post within his Donald Trump administration, well don't expect any more talk about term limits coming from this president elect....
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,333
1,889
126
It doesn't matter whether you could "prove" to what extent an election was affected by the disinformatia, hacking, Wiki releases and possibly yet-to-be-discovered facets of an organized propaganda, dis- and mis-information campaign.

From posts I see in this forum, too many Americans are naïve about the underlying literature, project development and strategies or psy-war campaigns conducted in other countries with measurement instruments to gauge success.

Between 1945 and 1960, The US government and mostly the CIA spent billions annually on grants to sociologists, psychologists, and other disciplines for secret research in mass communications and the dark arts or science that had a foundation in the ideas of Goebbels and Harold Laswell. Think about parallels to Werner von Braun in the space business, but in these other disciplines. They'd sit in an office, publish papers in Public Opinion Quarterly, and write their classified work for the grants.

Some time after there arose a confusion of CIA projects on American soil, there were congressional investigations revealing things that wouldn't be declassified to the public until decades later. Those projects were closed down. Of course, if a Hollywood director with a spy movie project needed to consult with the careerists at Langley, and if he wanted footage of the Langley building interior, there's a possibility just for instance that a doctrine or worry about the agency itself might transmit an impression of characters that would prove historically contrary.

So you might see it in a film like Yuri Nosenko KGB produced about 5 years before they finally caught Aldrich Aimes.

There are CIA manuals [no less, KGB compendiums] on the topic dating probably back to the 1950s. But if anyone had been the master of it, they would master it most successfully in a totally pluralistic media market. One could compare that with the old USSR -- a place where everyone knew where the information was coming from, and enough would figure out whether to take it seriously. But in an atmosphere of limited state-run media, there was no challenge to the craft of the psy-war specialist.

Apparently, they have caught up.

Look up the expressions "misprision," "misprision of a felony," "misprision of treason." Foreknowledge, add complicity, coordination, cooperation, or collaboration. With a foreign power, for instance.

Painful holiday for everyone. Some just think it might have been avoided with less of the ingenuous citizen.
 

Tequila

Senior member
Oct 24, 1999
882
11
76
w640-885ceb230a3cd7b54f3532727e6e593e.jpg



Please use your words and not just an image as a post.
admin allisolm
 
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Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,329
126
This is an act of war, an act of aggression. Now I'm not saying we should wage war against them, but they made an act of war, and we, as Americans, should respond, dig?

*Wink wink nudge nudge*

From what I understand, China has hacked us far more yet I don't see threads dedicated to our response to their "act of war".

PS: Not a Trump supporter.
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
International law doesn't care about elections, how rigged they are, or whether countries even have them.
Putin could have went on US television and said, "Vote for Trump, he'll be my puppet," and Trump supporters would have said something like "Well, at least he's not PC" and voted exactly the same way. You can't blame it on Russia that Trump supporters are stupid.

And Saudi Prince Al-Waleed Bin Talal bin Abdulaziz al Saud could have went on US television and said "Vote for Clinton, she is and has been my family's puppet for years," and Clinton supporters would have said something like "Well, at least she's not Trump" and voted exactly the same way. You can't blame it on Saudi Arabia that Clinton supporters are stupid.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,243
86
I am fatigued from keeping up with the other thread. This one will be to discuss a different take on this.

It seems that intelligence is quite confident that Russia orchestrated cyber attacks against the US election. This is true independent of any intent or efficacy in undermining a particular candidate or party and changing the votes of the election.

The reaction has been one of divisive partisan politics wherein Americans' main focus is on whether Trump's presidency is legit.

Wake up people. Russia orchestrated an attack on our political system. This is an act of war. In saying so I am not calling for us to declare war on Russia, merely for us to see plainly the aggressive act against the US. Not against Clinton. Not against Democrats. Not against Republicans. Against the US government.

Seeing this as an opportunity to correct an injustice in our election results or otherwise to defend against the notion that the attacks may discredit those results is wrong. We are Americans first. Russia attacked America. America should respond to Russia. When parties respond to each other, even seeing it as an opportunity to discredit each other, we are taking responsibility for Russia's attack. I don't think they could have set it up any better.

Discuss.

If you merely observe the contents of this thread, it's obvious that many don't care as long as Russia was helping them win. So much like with Jesus, these people talk obsessively of patriotism but are perfectly willing to sell the country or whatever else down the river for some perceived personal gain. It's hardly surprising that the thrust of their interests largely align with Trump, who needs their votes in exchange for providing even more lucrative handouts; a perfectly rational mutually beneficial relationship we see in just about every non liberal democracy.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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86
From what I understand, China has hacked us far more yet I don't see threads dedicated to our response to their "act of war".

PS: Not a Trump supporter.

The crux of this isn't the intelligence gathering per se, but actively using it to get their guy elected.
 

jihe

Senior member
Nov 6, 2009
747
97
91
Lol. Americans complaining about other countries meddling with their political process? Is this peak hypocrisy? Maybe the Russians should take lessons from CIA and train and arm US anti-government groups?
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,351
16,727
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I remember when a president would get impeached for stealing info from his opponents. When another country does it? No big deal. The Republican transformation into the know nothing party is complete.
 

jihe

Senior member
Nov 6, 2009
747
97
91
I remember when a president would get impeached for stealing info from his opponents. When another country does it? No big deal. The Republican transformation into the know nothing party is complete.

Well you are going to impeach Putin then?
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Quit gobbling up what you're being told because it helps you justify your anger and disappointment. The Russian involvement is not even close to being a sure thing. Watch this video out of a news station in Atlanta.

Watch: Atlanta TV reporter dismantles anonymous CIA 'hack' report

Anonymous CIA insiders convinced national mainstream media outlets that Russian hackers attempted to sway the 2016 presidential election for Donald Trump, but an Atlanta television reporter actually did some reporting and quickly found five solid reasons to question the claim.

A few of you guys are too smart to be falling for this manipulation by the media you're being subjected to. We hear repeatedly that you check multiple news sources, blah, blah, blah. You should widen that circle.

Yes, you're angry Trump won. You're disappointed, you're feeling hostility along with rage and a slew of emotions. But letting it simmer and stew while allowing yourself to be manipulated by the media to the point where you think you're actually making a difference isn't healthy. The media. who has been dealt a huge blow in this election has tried to enlist you through one tactic after another to try and delegitimize the upcoming Trump presidency. Quit falling for their tactics. Prove to yourself and by doing so also show us how smart you are.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
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86