[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[Head1985]

You say crushed and then you insert a. picture where we see a less than 8% difference. You may have some valid points but this hysterical hyperdrive stinks from all your posts and makes arguing with you more of a chore and less of an entertaining discussion.

Yes crushed that is when cheaper card is faster than card that cost more.GTX680 launched at 500 and 7970 was 550.Its just like 3700x crushed i7 9700k.its cheaper and faster

 

[lobz]

Yes crushed that is when cheaper card is faster than card that cost more.GTX680 launched at 500 and 7970 was 550.Its just like 3700x crushed i7 9700k.its cheaper and faster

Our vocabularies are incompatible.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Man the gpu market just sucks right now. My $340 GTX 970 was pretty good for almost five years. It wasn't until around that fifth year or so that I was having to turn any settings below high to get a consistent 60 fps at 1080p. Now I can't see anything on the market that I wouldn't want to replace in two years max at that price range with how powerful the next gen consoles look to be, and you know AAA games will mostly target them ahead of PC.

 

[amrnuke]

Man the gpu market just sucks right now. My $340 GTX 970 was pretty good for almost five years. It wasn't until around that fifth year or so that I was having to turn any settings below high to get a consistent 60 fps at 1080p. Now I can't see anything on the market that I wouldn't want to replace in two years max at that price range with how powerful the next gen consoles look to be, and you know AAA games will mostly target them ahead of PC.

If you think any card bought today will be obsolete in 2 years, that would mean, as best I can tell, one of two things: developers stopped optimizing for PC or there will be a massive breakthrough in GPU technology that would make the current generation obsolete.

I think both are unlikely, but why do you think a 1660 Super will age any worse than a 970?

Game demands will not far exceed what Nvidia and AMD GPUs can handle, because then the games wouldn't have a market even on console, keeping in mind the GPU solutions there are made by the same companies. Stagnation in the GPU realm means game developers have to focus more on optimization, or just deal with the current hardware. So any hardware you buy now, provided that it is roughly equivalent to the new Xbox/PS systems, should survive for several years just as your 970 has.

The RX570 has been around for almost 3 years and still plays games at 1080p with average 58 FPS. A 1070 still hits average 60 FPS at 1440p and it's over 3 years old. (Link)

Now, if suddenly there's a breakthrough on the GPU front and magically we are able to play at 4K Ultra at 144Hz - it wouldn't make an RX5700 obsolete. It would still run 1440p at 80fps average. But it might entice developers to get lazy with their optimizations because of the amount of brute force processing power out there.

 

[Glo.]

I think people believing that suddenly with next gen consoles we will get massively more demanding PC games, should not forget that First gen Xbox One and PS4's are still available and most likely games will still be developed for those platforms.

And simply because of this fact, there will be quite a lot of time before we will get Xbox Series X and PS5 games only, and this is the moment we will see the spike in game requirements.

 

[beginner99]

Man the gpu market just sucks right now. My $340 GTX 970 was pretty good for almost five years. It wasn't until around that fifth year or so that I was having to turn any settings below high to get a consistent 60 fps at 1080p. Now I can't see anything on the market that I wouldn't want to replace in two years max at that price range with how powerful the next gen consoles look to be, and you know AAA games will mostly target them ahead of PC.

I think at this point it's best to wait for NV to be on 7nm and then shell out some serious money and be set for next couple years. they will likely stay on 7nm for couple years. So no big gains in that time.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

If you think any card bought today will be obsolete in 2 years, that would mean, as best I can tell, one of two things: developers stopped optimizing for PC or there will be a massive breakthrough in GPU technology that would make the current generation obsolete.

I think both are unlikely, but why do you think a 1660 Super will age any worse than a 970?

Well the 970 was a much more powerful card for it's time, for one. But I think a huge reason that card aged well was because the consoles were pretty weak even by late 2013 standards, and the mid generation refreshes just got into the ballpark of the 970's gpu power.

Game demands will not far exceed what Nvidia and AMD GPUs can handle, because then the games wouldn't have a market even on console, keeping in mind the GPU solutions there are made by the same companies. Stagnation in the GPU realm means game developers have to focus more on optimization, or just deal with the current hardware. So any hardware you buy now, provided that it is roughly equivalent to the new Xbox/PS systems, should survive for several years just as your 970 has.

Seems like they will far exceed once you see games developed mainly for the new consoles and not the old ones, which is probably about a one year time delay from the new console launches. At least if the 9.2 TFLOPS on PS5 rumor is true. That's effecitvely a 5700 XT rumored, plus some hardware ray tracing support which they have officially promised. Kind of sounds like the closest equivalent to next gen consoles is going to be RTX 2070 Super since it's close to RX 5700 XT performance and has hardware RT (though likely far superior hardware RT than the PS5 gpus will have). That's a $500 card, ouch.

The RX570 has been around for almost 3 years and still plays games at 1080p with average 58 FPS. A 1070 still hits average 60 FPS at 1440p and it's over 3 years old. (Link)

I think that's largely because games are designed for consoles with quite weak hardware. Sony was very conservative with their hardware choices after how much PS3 bombed early in the gen. But it sounds like they're aiming to put pretty good quality hardware into the next gen system.

Now, if suddenly there's a breakthrough on the GPU front and magically we are able to play at 4K Ultra at 144Hz - it wouldn't make an RX5700 obsolete. It would still run 1440p at 80fps average. But it might entice developers to get lazy with their optimizations because of the amount of brute force processing power out there.

I kind of fear RT's usage in the next gen consoles which could make even the RX 5700 obsolete. An an RX 5700 discounting RT isn't as powerful as what's rumored to go into the PS5. Just feels like a really bad time to be buying a gpu.

 

[psolord]

I think there are important pieces of info that are missing.

That dude from microsoft, phil spencer, said the seX will be twice as powerful regarding graphics, compared to 1X right? The 1X has a 6tflop rx580 with more bandwidth to accomodate the fake 4K/30fps most games feature (dynamic res, checkerboarding, half res, you name it).

People assume that twice 1X gpu performance, means 12tflops, but alas the 2070 super is twice as fast compared to rx 580, with only 9 tflops.

MSI GeForce RTX 2070 Super Gaming X Review

MSI's GeForce RTX 2070 Super Gaming X is a factory overclocked custom-design that's priced only $10 higher than the Founders Edition. It is cooled by a large triple-slot, dual-fan heatsink that has fan-stop and runs cooler and much quieter than the NVIDIA Founders Edition.

www.techpowerup.com

Also what about die size. Rx 5700xt is already 251mm^2 without RT and without the cpu cores. How big will this APU be? What is its transistor budget?

I mean look how much bigger the turing gpus ended up, just by adding RT. Do we really think that AMD has gotten so smart all of a sudden that they can even match Nvidia's know how? Will RT be based on other computing units? And what will happen to that computing unit's processing power, when it will be executing RT commands? And what about power draw?

Also is AMD going to just kill off their own mid range category? How are they going to sell their rx 5500s if they are useless?

I don't know, it seems to me that there is a bit of exaggeration of what we should expect.

Just a reminder, we were promised Babylon 5 graphics for nintendo 64, we were supposed to get toy story 2 graphics with the original xbox, quoted by Billy the kid himself, and don't get me started on what Sony was showing at E3 2006...

 

[Stuka87]

Yes crushed that is when cheaper card is faster than card that cost more.GTX680 launched at 500 and 7970 was 550.Its just like 3700x crushed i7 9700k.its cheaper and faster

Again, your idea of "crushed" is not what most people think of. At launch, the 7970 was a whopping 6% slower than the 680 (which is almost imperceptible to most people). But just a few months later the 7970 GHz Edition launched, which was then faster than the 680 for the same $499 price.

And as we all known, years down the road, Tahiti had surpassed the 680 as AMD continued with driver updates, and nVidia stopped updating Kepler.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I don't know, it seems to me that there is a bit of exaggeration of what we should expect.

Just a reminder, we were promised Babylon 5 graphics for nintendo 64, we were supposed to get toy story 2 graphics with the original xbox, quoted by Billy the kid himself, and don't get me started on what Sony was showing at E3 2006...

I'm aware consoles are often overpromised before launch, but I have to take note of a rumor that Digital Foundry reports on and takes seriously. These rumors will definitely stop me from buying a gpu until I can find out some official info on the PS5.

 

[insertcarehere]

I think people believing that suddenly with next gen consoles we will get massively more demanding PC games, should not forget that First gen Xbox One and PS4's are still available and most likely games will still be developed for those platforms.

And simply because of this fact, there will be quite a lot of time before we will get Xbox Series X and PS5 games only, and this is the moment we will see the spike in game requirements.

It will really depend on how much uptake the Ps4 pro/X1X had. If they had good uptake it's not hard to imagine game developers setting a baseline 1080p/30 FPS for the Ps4 Pro/X1X and adding more bells and whistles for the next gens. That's still significantly more demanding than what we're seeing today.

 

[soresu]

Just a reminder, we were promised Babylon 5 graphics for nintendo 64

While N64 gfx were sublime at the time (to me anyways) - I don't think anyone of sound reasoning would have expected that level of CG quality in a real time setting/engine of the day on any platform.

In my opinion the only thing that truly hampered N64 was the storage capacity of those game carts - Sony stuck them real good by abandoning them to make the Playstation.

 

[soresu]

These rumors will definitely stop me from buying a gpu until I can find out some official info on the PS5.

I'd save your money further until you start hearing exclusives rolling in for PS5 launch and beyond - there is Sony's true triumph in this current generation.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I'd save your money further until you start hearing exclusives rolling in for PS5 launch and beyond - there is Sony's true triumph in this current generation.

If PS5 actually has the rumored gpu I'd buy it for the multiplatform games too. Especially since the big 2020 games coming to PS4 would likely have not too difficult ports to PS5 with better textures and better framerate. I'm guessing improved versions of 2020 PS4 releases are going to be the main PS5 launch lineup since Sony hasn't said much about launch titles yet.

 

[soresu]

If PS5 actually has the rumored gpu I'd buy it for the multiplatform games too. Especially since the big 2020 games coming to PS4 would likely have not too difficult ports to PS5 with better textures and better framerate. I'm guessing improved versions of 2020 PS4 releases are going to be the main PS5 launch lineup since Sony hasn't said much about launch titles yet.

Yes, this is a likely path - and one that will be even more profitable for this generation as porting will be so much easier.

 

[mohit9206]

Man the gpu market just sucks right now. My $340 GTX 970 was pretty good for almost five years. It wasn't until around that fifth year or so that I was having to turn any settings below high to get a consistent 60 fps at 1080p. Now I can't see anything on the market that I wouldn't want to replace in two years max at that price range with how powerful the next gen consoles look to be, and you know AAA games will mostly target them ahead of PC.

5700XT will be relevant for atleast 4 years I think.

Again, your idea of "crushed" is not what most people think of. At launch, the 7970 was a whopping 6% slower than the 680 (which is almost imperceptible to most people). But just a few months later the 7970 GHz Edition launched, which was then faster than the 680 for the same $499 price.

And as we all known, years down the road, Tahiti had surpassed the 680 as AMD continued with driver updates, and nVidia stopped updating Kepler.

I'm sorry but the fact is that AMD was slower than Nvidia at launch and that is what matters.

 

[Stuka87]

I'm sorry but the fact is that AMD was slower than Nvidia at launch and that is what matters.

Actually no. The 7970 was faster than nVidia at launch, as the competition was the GTX 580. Four months later, nVidia was slightly faster with the 680. Than 3 months after that, AMD was slightly faster with the 7970 GE. Once the 780 came out a year later nVidia was back to being at the top by a pretty healthy margin at launch. Although these days the 780 has not aged well at all.

Anyway, back on topic. to me the N64 was amazing as well, as was the Dreamcast when it came out. I also think we will see a jump in game quality once the new consoles get released. As games are currently still being made to be playable on the very old PS4 and XBoxOne. I don't think there are any PS4 Pro or XBOX ONLY games out there?

 

[railven]

Again, your idea of "crushed" is not what most people think of. At launch, the 7970 was a whopping 6% slower than the 680 (which is almost imperceptible to most people). But just a few months later the 7970 GHz Edition launched, which was then faster than the 680 for the same $499 price.

And as we all known, years down the road, Tahiti had surpassed the 680 as AMD continued with driver updates, and nVidia stopped updating Kepler.

Let's be honest here. To the every day person, "crushed" is definitely not the descriptor to use. But we aren't every day people. We're enthusiasts. And when we see NV's historical mid-range GPU outperform AMD's newest top-range GPU, "crushed" is putting it nicely.

GTX 680 demolished 7970. And all the "fine wine" and "OC it to the moon" rhetoric won't change this.

We can trace a lot of the hardship AMD faced back to Tahiti. It was a legendary card, I still miss both of mine, but let's not try to re-write history. It took AMD months to get the 7970 where it was viable, and that took price cuts, bundle packs, and driver updates that eventually ended up moot thanks to bitmining.

The FineWine thematic sure ended up as a sour point with Vega. And I truly hope AMD can fix their current driver issues with Navi because frankly, being told to disable selling point features to maintain driver stability is turning a lot of people off.

 

[railven]

I think people believing that suddenly with next gen consoles we will get massively more demanding PC games, should not forget that First gen Xbox One and PS4's are still available and most likely games will still be developed for those platforms.

And simply because of this fact, there will be quite a lot of time before we will get Xbox Series X and PS5 games only, and this is the moment we will see the spike in game requirements.

With consoles moving towards a more homogeneous build, we'll just see more of what PC side. Slower hardware will just get resolution and settings lowered.

Both Sony and MSFT stated Gen 8 that they were trying to maximize profits per unit, instead of doing the usual loss-leader strategy. Gen 8 was obsolete the moment they launched. With the hardware leaks I remember the console wars but Xbox One was barely going to out perform an HD 5770. With release titles having to settle on 600p-720p upscaled to 1080p where as PC hardware was more than capable of doing it with better IQ. As someone else pointed out here, Digital Foundry covered this well.

The refresh consoles were the first in console history to change the hardware to the point where it brought noticeable differences. And I don't expect consoles to deviate from this method in the future. Gen 9 is probably gonna roll out with 5500 XT base line performance and will get refreshed to perhaps AMD's RTX 2080 equivalent in a quarter decade or so, before Gen 10 rolls around.

Even the console market is squeezing users dry now. Want the latest features? Upgrade your console every 2-3 years! WooooooOOoo!

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Gen 9 is probably gonna roll out with 5500 XT base line performance and will get refreshed to perhaps AMD's RTX 2080 equivalent in a quarter decade or so, before Gen 10 rolls around.

Even the console market is squeezing users dry now. Want the latest features? Upgrade your console every 2-3 years! WooooooOOoo!

For months I have kept telling my friends hyped on the new XBox and PS5 similar, to not expect anything beyond around 1660 Ti performance because gpu prices are through the roof these last couple of years. But now we have pretty respected journalists at Digital Foundry running with this 9.2 TFLOPS rumor and all it can make me think is maybe AMD and Nvidia are just bending PC gamers over right now and laughing if Sony can get that kind of gpu into a system that already is known to have an 8C/16T Ryzen chip and an ssd in it and still sell it for $499 or less. It's not like there is a node shrink coming that's going to make RDNA2 somehow cheap. And I can't imagine Sony is going to make the same mistake they did with the $599 PS3 that almost sank the company. I really don't want to be the one paying top dollar for PC hardware that's not going to smoke a full system I could get for $500, especially considering I'll also need a platform upgrade not too long from now either, running a Haswell Xeon E3-1231v3 (4C/8T chip that runs at 3.6 GHz on an all-cores load). This gen I was willing to pay twice the price of a console for twice the performance on PC, but for next gen I'm not willing to pay twice the price just to get console parity ten months early on PC.

 

[VirtualLarry]

all it can make me think is maybe AMD and Nvidia are just bending PC gamers over right now and laughing if Sony can get that kind of gpu into a system that already is known to have an 8C/16T Ryzen chip

Sadly, ever since the "mining boom", I think that this is true.

 

[CHADBOGA]

I don't get how AMD makes their CPU's look so compelling and yet makes their GPU line up look so uninspiring.

 

[jpiniero]

Remember that Sony and MS aren't paying much more than what TSMC charges AMD. And given the order size they are likely getting a better deal on the wafers than what AMD is paying now. And the consoles themselves are essentially sold at cost.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Remember that Sony and MS aren't paying much more than what TSMC charges AMD. And given the order size they are likely getting a better deal on the wafers than what AMD is paying now. And the consoles themselves are essentially sold at cost.

I mean there's no doubt these consoles are going to be subsidized by Sony and MS since the long game is to get you to buy your games and microtransactions on that platform so Sony/MS can take their 30 cents on the dollar there, and also so you'll pay for memberships that are virtually pure profit to use PS Plus / XBox Live. Even the puny PS4 and XB1 were likely sold at a small loss at launch once you factor in the retailer's cut. But man, low binned Ryzen7 + RX 5700 XT level gpu + 16GB GDDR6 (guessing here on size) + 1TB SSD (guessing here on size also) + power supply to run it for $500? It sounds absurd based on prices for PC hardware. But that's seemingly the best guess what's going to be in the system.

 

[Glo.]

low binned Ryzen7 + RX 5700 XT level gpu + 16GB GDDR6 (guessing here on size) + 1TB SSD (guessing here on size also) + power supply to run it for $500?

PS5 is rumored to cost 399$, and Xbox Series X is rumored to cost 499$.

Rumors say that XSX is more powerful, and this would put the validity into rumors about TFLOPs: PS5 - 9.2 TFLOPs, XSX - 12 TFLOPs.

Who cares? If PS5 is 399$ - its a day one buy from me.