[Rumor, Tweaktown] AMD to launch next-gen Navi graphics cards at E3

[coercitiv]

Intel is the company that is famous for targetting Price Margins

Intel is the company that is famous for targeting Price Margins after achieving Market Domination.

What's so hard to understand about this recipe?! First you get the bigger chunk of market share, establish your brand as perceived leader, and THEN you increase prices and margins.

Why is it so hard to look back to recent Intel history and see how they sold their mobile products so cheap that phones and tablets based on Atom became cheaper than ARM based products despite Atom platform having higher BoM. They poured billions into contra revenue and effectively bribed consumers to take their products. Price Margins my end sequence.

What makes you think Intel will do the same?

Quote from future Intel investor meeting:

Yes, Graphics segement looks really promising. As expected we have excellent, high margins across our entire product lineup. Right now we're looking at 4% market share with a positive outlook for next year, aiming for 5.5% in 2022. Intel is being perceived as a strong 3rd graphics brand, and this is exactly what we aimed for.

Intel is coming in for a dominant position in terms of market share and brand perception. That's their modus operandi: they come in with superior tech and loads of cash to burn, suffocate the competition into submission, and then profit.

 

[mohit9206]

This deserves a separate thread . Please make one.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Intel is coming in for a dominant position in terms of market share and brand perception. That's their modus operandi: they come in with superior tech and loads of cash to burn, suffocate the competition into submission, and then profit.

They tried that with Atom in the mobile market and got a black eye. You sure they're going to do it again? Consumer XE has already been teased as a $500 product if I recall correctly.

 

[arandomguy]

I think they'll keep prices the same, if only because the performance will position them between the 2060 Super and 2070 Super and they probably don't want to connotation that it's an inferior product that would accompany an immediate price drop. Instead what they'll do is add in free games or something along those lines if they feel that the value proposition isn't quite where it needs to be relative to the new competition. Then they can play it off as though that was always something they were going to do and that their card is competitive and they don't need to adjust the price to compensate.

Strictly speaking RX 5700/xt were already announced with the Xbox game pass bundle.

However while it's not officially confirmed yet but Nvidia is likely to also announce a game bundle on July 9th for Wolfenstein Youngblood and Control for all RTX cards. This will include the Super cards which are stated to actually start selling on July 9th.

What would more likely happen given that AiB cards are further out for RX 5700/xt is that they will be allowed to clock noticeably higher and given more pricing flexibility. Street prices will then be allowed to gradually adjust until a "comfortable" equilibrium is reached. What shouldn't be ignored is that while AMD might not have mainstream mind share they have enough of a following (or Nvida has enough haters, or a combination of both) that is enough to hold a certain amount of sales especially given likely limited initial availability.

Or the other alternative is that there has been some long play here with regards to heavy sand bagging for Navi 10 that the reviews will show in a few days.

This just side commentary in general regarding AMD competing vs Nvidia. People shouldn't expect AMD to take the same methods they are using on the CPU side against Intel. On the CPU side AMD with Zen has several specific advantages especially when targeting certain market segments with their product. Meanwhile Intel as had several miss steps and issues which have led to weaknesses in those same segments. This is why AMD can (and has) make an actual aggressive play for more market share via pricing as Intel cannot really counter play.

The above situation does not exist in the desktop GPU space. While some might want to convince themselves this isn't the case and give some advantages to AMD (eg. it's 7nm! which is great and that somehow was only an option for AMD. But semi custom, consoles!) the reality is almost certainly that whatever price based play AMD makes Nvidia can effectively match it (and likely are more able to). Nvidia might not like it but at best for AMD this would only result in basically both sides cratering. This has been the case at least as far back as Hawaii if not all the back to Terascale vs Tesla/Fermi days. The pricing moves they've made since this is been reacting to the market as they haven't been in a position product wise to be pro active. With Zen and Intel's stumbles they can be pro active in those CPU spaces.

 

[Dribble]

Strictly speaking RX 5700/xt were already announced with the Xbox game pass bundle.

However while it's not officially confirmed yet but Nvidia is likely to also announce a game bundle on July 9th for Wolfenstein Youngblood and Control for all RTX cards. This will include the Super cards which are stated to actually start selling on July 9th.

You got to remember that one of the key aims of Super is to ruin all the Navi reviews. It released *just* in time to make it into all of them - so Navi will now be vs 2060S/2070S nto the 2060/2070.

For that week when all the first Navi reviews come out expect Nvidia to be rolling out all sorts of offers. It's probably also why the founders edition isn't more expensive - it's another advantage - you got the cheap Navi blower cards vs Super with cooling as good as most aftermarket solutions. Navi will get double/triple fan coolers too but not for those official reviews. So whenever someone googles anandtech in 2 years time they will still be reading how Navi is hot and loud and Nvidia's competing cards are not.

I'd expect a whole bunch of "look at our next gen game with ray tracing" articles to appear about now as well - as that's another angle Nvidia can come at AMD. When it comes to marketing even if you hate the company you've got to admit Nvidia know what they are doing.

 

[Ajay]

Yes, they would be. AMD (again, if the extrapolation is accurate) already have better fps/$ with the 5700XT and equal with the 5700. If the price were $30 lower there would be no question as to who had the better value.

You think people, enthusiasts in particular, buy based on value? By the numbers, most buy based on brand - and NV has won the brand wars for now. One GPU won’t change that. I wish AMD luck, the 5700s maybe be a good start (we’ll know better in a few days).

 

[maddie]

You think people, enthusiasts in particular, buy based on value? By the numbers, most buy based on brand - and NV has won the brand wars for now. One GPU won’t change that. I wish AMD luck, the 5700s maybe be a good start (we’ll know better in a few days).

Yeah, I see this as the first step in a long hard slog.

 

[Glo.]

Intel is coming in for a dominant position in terms of market share and brand perception. That's their modus operandi: they come in with superior tech and loads of cash to burn, suffocate the competition into submission, and then profit.

If that is their strategy, they have to bring BETTER products than AMD and Nvidia.

Is it possible? .

 

[theeedude]

Intel is the company that is famous for targeting Price Margins after achieving Market Domination.

What's so hard to understand about this recipe?! First you get the bigger chunk of market share, establish your brand as perceived leader, and THEN you increase prices and margins.

Why is it so hard to look back to recent Intel history and see how they sold their mobile products so cheap that phones and tablets based on Atom became cheaper than ARM based products despite Atom platform having higher BoM. They poured billions into contra revenue and effectively bribed consumers to take their products. Price Margins my end sequence.


Quote from future Intel investor meeting:


Intel is coming in for a dominant position in terms of market share and brand perception. That's their modus operandi: they come in with superior tech and loads of cash to burn, suffocate the competition into submission, and then profit.

You mean like they did with smartphone SOC and LTE modem business? Or Larabee? Or Itanic? Intel is going to get hammered by AMD in their CPU business. The rest is just a distraction from that.

 

[soresu]

Almost, but it's going to dwindle away over time. Every sale for AMD hurts Intel in the long run. Intel having to give more for less hurts them in the long run. People can argue till they turn blue, but in the end it's really the way it is. Not saying doomsday for Intel nor denying the possibility of it, but there future will surely be way more challenging than their past.

People are also apt to forget the huge R&D investment that goes into developing a new process node, and Intel now has to race to become relevant again with their 7nm, or finally just throw their hands up and concede to the fabless regime that basically everyone else follows now.

I can only imagine what potential profit loss the 10nm delays have incurred in future earnings, and this is not a faux pas that can be easily shrugged off to potential clients considering Intel's relative resources to its competitors (AMD and ARM I mean, not Samsung and TSMC).

I don't doubt that MBCFET Nano Sheet at 3nm will have its teething troubles, but I wouldn't bet on them being enough to delay Samsung and TSMC significantly if I were Intel.

 

[coercitiv]

You mean like they did with smartphone SOC and LTE modem business? Or Larabee? Or Itanic? Intel is going to get hammered by AMD in their CPU business. The rest is just a distraction from that.

Whether they succeed or not is not my problem, I'm talking about their strategy.

 

[beginner99]

AMD could do that right now, especially if other posters are correct in their estimates that a 5700XT only has a BoM of ~$200. Selling that thing for $300 would be a cakewalk, would move a ton of cards onto the market, and make it easy for AMD to recover on design costs. Yet AMD isn't doing that. What makes you think Intel will do the same? We don't even know exactly what process they'll use for their consumer dGPUs in 2020 (heaven help us if it's Intel 10nm).

Who knows why AMD is pricing it this way. It's honestly a mystery and their market share decline should maybe have been a hint that it isn't working. Maybe they hope NV doesn't have enough capacity or they need most 7nm for Zen2 chiplets for the next couple months to come. Who knows, if MS, alibaba, amazon or co. place a huge order for Rome CPUs, AMD won't care about navi pricing much.

I'm betting on first on being on 14nm and then as they at least said first product in 2021 in 7nm. Unless 10nm yields are now under control. The lack of clock speed matters less in gpus so it might not be that bad.

Intel will get away with absurd pricing even less than AMD. They would really need to offer some good price or really really good features or game bundles at same perfromance/$. Especially because their driver support will be unknown at first and a huge risk given past history. It's possible they complete fail to get these points but given the people they recently hired, that knowledge is for sure available. Just a matter if they act on it or the bean counters win.

 

[Glo.]

Whether they succeed or not is not my problem, I'm talking about their strategy.

If they have no better products than AMD and Nvidia their strategy in this business is a recipe for disaster equal to their mobile efforts.

 

[coercitiv]

If they have no better products than AMD and Nvidia their strategy in this business is a recipe for disaster equal to their mobile efforts.

Nvidia also failed in their mobile efforts. What does that say about their GPU competence?

 

[maddie]

Nvidia also failed in their mobile efforts. What does that say about their GPU competence?

Hand up.

That competence in one field does not automatically translate into others. Us humans generally look for 'leaders' to know all truth. BS I say, I'll do my independent analysis. Just look at YT video stars. In most cases, slightly above average, yet the faith shown is scary. Same with companies, but I have to state this. I see Lisa Su as very superior to most in depth and breadth of understanding, or at least ability to learn. The new AMD is really that. An industry inflection point happening here in many dimensions.

 

[guachi]

You think people, enthusiasts in particular, buy based on value? By the numbers, most buy based on brand - and NV has won the brand wars for now. One GPU won’t change that. I wish AMD luck, the 5700s maybe be a good start (we’ll know better in a few days).

An enthusiast is the person most likely to buy based on value as he should have read a review or twelve and would know what the best value is.

If you aren't buying based on value after having done your homework then you aren't an enthusiast.

 

[Glo.]

Nvidia also failed in their mobile efforts. What does that say about their GPU competence?

Let me sum up. For what you have written to work, for Intel they have to design better products, than AMD and Nvidia, to gain marketshare. It has to be faster, than AMD and Nvidia competing products, more efficient, or cheaper, in combination of two of those three.

It cannot be as good, and priced the same, if that strategy you have written is supposed to work. In essence 250 mm2 die from Intel has to be the same in performance and efficiency as Nvidia/AMD's but cheaper to buy for them to be viable option.

And when they will release their GPUs, what makes you believe AMD will not release 6700 Series, by rebadging the Navi GPUs, and selling them at 300$, and lower?

IMO. Intel will not release faster, more efficient GPUs than AMD and Nvidia, while pricing them more aggressively. They will just release the same 400-500$ mid range GPU, as Nvidia/AMD did.

 

[Head1985]

Let me sum up. For what you have written to work, for Intel they have to design better products, than AMD and Nvidia, to gain marketshare. It has to be faster, than AMD and Nvidia competing products, more efficient, or cheaper, in combination of two of those three.

It cannot be as good, and priced the same, if that strategy you have written is supposed to work. In essence 250 mm2 die from Intel has to be the same in performance and efficiency as Nvidia/AMD's but cheaper to buy for them to be viable option.

And when they will release their GPUs, what makes you believe AMD will not release 6700 Series, by rebadging the Navi GPUs, and selling them at 300$, and lower?

IMO. Intel will not release faster, more efficient GPUs than AMD and Nvidia, while pricing them more aggressively. They will just release the same 400-500$ mid range GPU, as Nvidia/AMD did.

Then nobody will buy them and they will be forever at 0% market share in dgpu market.Why anyone should buy intel when its another copy/paste overpriced garbage like AMD/NV cards?

 

[SPBHM]

apparently these are legit leaks from Poland
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/the-amd-navi-thread.18790390/page-185#post-32839826

5700xt beats the 2070FE on the latest tomb raider and FC5, but is slower than the Super;
5700 does better against the 2060S, but on Wolfenstein and 3dm Timespy both are not really competitive with Nvidia.

power usage is around the same.

 

[Glo.]

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-and-rx-5700-review-leaks-out

So RX 5700 XT is basically RTX 2070 Super, and RX 5700 is basically RTX 2060 Super.

So they appear more efficient than Nvidia GPUs, also.

In essence if Benchmark results are correct, you get for 450$, RTX 2070 Super, with RTX 2070 power draw.

 

[Head1985]

5700xt is not like 2070 super.
5700xt is 4% faster than 2070FE in FC5 and 2% in tomb raider and slower in wolf2 by 36%.
5700 is same performance as 2060super in fc5 and tomb raider and slower in wolf2 by 29%.
Power draw 5700xt same as 2070super and 5700 as 2060FE.

only 3 games tested.Also other cards have weird results(2070super and 1080TI both should be way faster and very close to 2080).Better wait for hardware unboxed and 30games benchmark with AIB cards

 

[crisium]

Hmm, so it's not moving the needle then. Basically same thing, with ray tracing being a slight tax?

 

[Glo.]

5700xt is not like 2070 super.
5700xt is 2% faster than 2070FE in FC5 and tomb raider and slower in wolf2 by 36%.
5700 is same performance as 2060super in fc5 and tomb raider and slower in wolf2 by 29%.
Power draw 5700xt same as 2070super and 5700 as 2060FE.

only 3 games tested

Not three games tested, but three games were Screenshoted . benchmark's review suite is wider than just three games. Shadow of the Tomd Raider was worst benchmark for Navi, per AMD's own benchmarks. Far Cry 5 was supposed to perform well, at around 9% better than RTX 2070. And the performance of Wolfenstein is more an outlier, most likely because of Drivers, because its hard to believe it will be so much slower compared to even two other games. Especially, considering the performance of Radeon VII in this game.

Secondly, about power draw, you missed that RTX 2070 is there also? So power draw is equal to RTX 2070 FE, and RTX 2060 FE.

 

[Glo.]

Hmm, so it's not moving the needle then. Basically same thing, with ray tracing being a slight tax?

Pretty much.

 

[jpiniero]

Pretty much.

But that's certainly better than things stood before. I do think they will cut prices quickly, and yes the VII is likely going to be discontinued soon if it hasn't been already.