News Roe v. Wade overturned

[JD50]

You answered my question with two more questions. Not sure why you think that is answering my question.

Is there any line to be drawn before birth when we tell a person that they cannot abort unless it is medically necessary?

Since this is supposedly allowed in Colorado, can you give some examples of women getting an abortion at 34 weeks just for fun?

 

[Zorba]

that’s funny, pro birthers want to murder women for having abortions, and it will be law in some states

Only if the fetus was male, though.

 

[Pohemi]

This is how US News lists the Abortion Laws in the US.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/a-guide-to-abortion-laws-by-state

California
With Roe: Abortion available up to viability
Without Roe: Abortion protected by state law prior to viability
Colorado
With Roe: No gestational age restrictions
Without Roe: Abortion protected by state law throughout pregnancy

Are you saying that US News is mispresenting Colorado's Abortion law?

Perhaps you should look up the laws in Colorado at the CO.gov site instead of taking a summary position from a news aggregation site and running with it as fact.

I'll repeat it again. 22 weeks except for specific circumstances (such as medical reasoning).

Care to give it another shot and revise your incorrect beliefs? I won't hold my breath.

 

[Brovane]

Perhaps you should look up the laws in Colorado at the CO.gov site instead of taking a summary position from a news aggregation site and running with it as fact.

I'll repeat it again. 22 weeks except for specific circumstances (such as medical reasoning).

Care to give it another shot and revise your incorrect beliefs? I won't hold my breath.

Reproductive Health Equity Act

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb22-1279

The bill declares that every individual has a fundamental right to use or refuse contraception; every pregnant individual has a fundamental right to continue the pregnancy and give birth or to have an abortion; and a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus does not have independent or derivative rights under the laws of the state.


I did find a Bill proposed in 2020 to limit Abortion to 22 weeks, however it doesn't seem the Bill made it out of committee.

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb20-1098

I am fine with revising my incorrect belief's if you can show a link to something that shows that CO bans Abortions after 22 weeks except for specific circumstances.

Thank you,

 

[Pens1566]

Reproductive Health Equity Act

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb22-1279

The bill declares that every individual has a fundamental right to use or refuse contraception; every pregnant individual has a fundamental right to continue the pregnancy and give birth or to have an abortion; and a fertilized egg, embryo, or fetus does not have independent or derivative rights under the laws of the state.


I did find a Bill proposed in 2020 to limit Abortion to 22 weeks, however it doesn't seem the Bill made it out of committee.

https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb20-1098

I am fine with revising my incorrect belief's if you can show a link to something that shows that CO bans Abortions after 22 weeks except for specific circumstances.

Thank you,

It doesn't do anything except reinforce existing rights.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...orado-law-does-not-allow-abortions-until-mom/

Up to 34 weeks "if medically indicated":

https://naralcolorado.org/laws-policy/in-our-state/

Nothing about walking up to a clinic and getting one willy nilly a week before your due date.

 

[Brovane]

It doesn't do anything except reinforce existing rights.

https://www.politifact.com/factchec...orado-law-does-not-allow-abortions-until-mom/

Up to 34 weeks "if medically indicated":

https://naralcolorado.org/laws-policy/in-our-state/

Nothing about walking up to a clinic and getting one willy nilly a week before your due date.

Thank you for sharing that.
Based on what you shared I am reading that Colorado allows Abortion up to 26 weeks without being medically indicated. However after 26 weeks it would need a medical reason to get a Abortion. Is that correct?

Colorado is one of the few states where a late abortion can be obtained. Outpatient abortion is available up to 26 weeks. In addition, medically indicated termination of pregnancy up to 34 weeks is also an option for conditions such as fetal anomalies, genetic disorder, fetal demise and/or or severe medical problems.

 

[ivwshane]

You answered my question with two more questions. Not sure why you think that is answering my question.

Is there any line to be drawn before birth when we tell a person that they cannot abort unless it is medically necessary?

You didn’t like the answer because you don’t have that data so the answer to your question is that there is no line because there doesn’t need to be one. Let me know what else I need to spell out for you because this shit isn’t hard. It’s only hard to you because you have to contort yourself to fit your position.

 

[Brovane]

You didn’t like the answer because you don’t have that data so the answer to your question is that there is no line because there doesn’t need to be one. Let me know what else I need to spell out for you because this shit isn’t hard. It’s only hard to you because you have to contort yourself to fit your position.

What do you think is my position? If you don't mind me asking.

 

[ivwshane]

What do you think is my position? If you don't mind me asking.

I don’t care what your position is, you could be playing devils advocate for all I care but your argument is invalid and the premise isn’t supported by reality. Do you have data to back up your point or do you concede the point that no restrictions wouldn’t lead to worse outcomes or an increase in outcomes you’ve deemed unacceptable (perhaps not your argument but a frequent argument from the anti bodily autonomy crowd).

 

[Brovane]

I don’t care what your position is, you could be playing devils advocate for all I care but your argument is invalid and the premise isn’t supported by reality. Do you have data to back up your point or do you concede the point that no restrictions wouldn’t lead to worse outcomes or an increase in outcomes you’ve deemed unacceptable (perhaps not your argument but a frequent argument from the anti bodily autonomy crowd).

There is a ethical case to be made that aborting a fetus at 8-weeks isn't the same as aborting one at 24-weeks. The fetus does have moral value at some-point before birth. There is a ethical and moral dilemma between the bodily autonomy of the mother and the moral value of the fetus as it develops.
You have not proven this argument invalid because you haven't not made any argument against it from a ethics stand-point. Your argument is essentially that it is irrelevant, since Abortions after fetus viability don't occur unless it is medically necessary. When we have no way to know if all abortions that occur after 24-weeks are medically necessary.

 

[ivwshane]

There is a ethical case to be made that aborting a fetus at 8-weeks isn't the same as aborting one at 24-weeks. The fetus does have moral value at some-point before birth. There is a ethical and moral dilemma between the bodily autonomy of the mother and the moral value of the fetus as it develops.
You have not proven this argument invalid because you haven't not made any argument against it from a ethics stand-point. Your argument is essentially that it is irrelevant, since Abortions after fetus viability don't occur unless it is medically necessary. When we have no way to know if all abortions that occur after 24-weeks are medically necessary.

I’ll give you a little tip: if you aren’t an authoritarian then you don’t want government legislating morals and ethics for individuals, which is what you are arguing for. You want your beliefs forced upon others but you don’t give them the same respect and allow them to force their beliefs on you. So why should anyone respect your position?

Any moral or ethical choice is a private one and not one that should be regulated by government or by strangers. So why do you think you or anyone else is privy to making such decisions for anyone but yourself?

Btw, we should note that you have yet to provide any data to support your premise so you are either arguing in bad faith or your whole argument rests purely on your feels.

 

[Brovane]

I’ll give you a little tip: if you aren’t an authoritarian then you don’t want government legislating morals and ethics for individuals, which is what you are arguing for. You want your beliefs forced upon others but you don’t give them the same respect and allow them to force their beliefs on you. So why should anyone respect your position?

Any moral or ethical choice is a private one and not one that should be regulated by government or by strangers. So why do you think you or anyone else is privy to making such decisions for anyone but yourself?

Btw, we should note that you have yet to provide any data to support your premise so you are either arguing in bad faith or your whole argument rests purely on your feels.

When those choices start impacting another living person. The dilemma is we have two viable living persons in one body at some point during the pregnancy. Your making the argument that only the mother matters until a Baby is born. I am making the argument that at some point they both matter.

There is plenty of medical data showing the viability of a fetus at around 24 weeks. Do you need me to link to this data?

 

[Fenixgoon]

When those choices start impacting another living person. The dilemma is we have two viable living persons in one body at some point during the pregnancy. Your making the argument that only the mother matters until a Baby is born. I am making the argument that at some point they both matter.

There is plenty of medical data showing the viability of a fetus at around 24 weeks. Do you need me to link to this data?

and the percentage of abortions performed after viability is? ........ around 1%, and usually for medical reasons.

so why not let the mother and doctor make the best decisions they possibly can under an extremely stressful scenario, instead of having the government mandate an outcome that may not be to the benefit of, or even deadly for - the mother and/or arriving child?

mind you that banning abortions after 24 weeks would also require that pregnant women give birth to non-viable children. which is fucking monstrous.

somehow conservatives love the idea of small government and staying out of people's lives, but when it comes to a woman's uterus, then all of the sudden government is totally ok.

 

[fskimospy]

and the percentage of abortions performed after viability is? ........ around 1%, and usually for medical reasons.

so why not let the mother and doctor make the best decisions they possibly can under an extremely stressful scenario, instead of having the government mandate an outcome that may not be to the benefit of, or even deadly for - the mother and/or arriving child?

mind you that banning abortions after 24 weeks would also require that pregnant women give birth to non-viable children. which is fucking monstrous.

somehow conservatives love the idea of small government and staying out of people's lives, but when it comes to a woman's uterus, then all of the sudden government is totally ok.

I think Brovane’s point about abortion after viability is a valid one, but yes certainly any medical reason would be sufficient and as you say the number of non-medical third trimester abortions that take place are vanishingly small.

 

[K1052]

I think Brovane’s point about abortion after viability is a valid one, but yes certainly any medical reason would be sufficient and as you say the number of non-medical third trimester abortions that take place are vanishingly small.

Part of the problem here is that the public at large is massively ignorant of when most abortions actually occur.

 

[ivwshane]

When those choices start impacting another living person. The dilemma is we have two viable living persons in one body at some point during the pregnancy. Your making the argument that only the mother matters until a Baby is born. I am making the argument that at some point they both matter.

There is plenty of medical data showing the viability of a fetus at around 24 weeks. Do you need me to link to this data?

And you are making the assertion that the mother doesn’t take that decision into account. Not only that but you are now using a straw man argument involving viability, of which was not part of any argument I was making AND you have, still, yet to show any women having abortions later into their pregnancy who are healthy as is their baby who are deciding to abort for no medical reasons. How many pages in this thread will be created before you provide that data?

 

[ivwshane]

I think Brovane’s point about abortion after viability is a valid one, but yes certainly any medical reason would be sufficient and as you say the number of non-medical third trimester abortions that take place are vanishingly small.

Is it though? If we change the subject to voter ID laws do you support the creation of laws that disenfranchise voters to combat voter fraud that is virtually non existent? Do you support those laws even when they don’t address actual voter fraud that does happen like illegal votes via absentee ballots? Of course you don’t and I’m pretty sure you yourself have said something to the effect that allowing republicans to pass voter ID legislation is simply playing into their hands.

So why would/should we allow laws to restrict women’s bodily autonomy all in the name of something that doesn’t happen?

 

[fskimospy]

Is it though? If we change the subject to voter ID laws do you support the creation of laws that disenfranchise voters to combat voter fraud that is virtually non existent? Do you support those laws even when they don’t address actual voter fraud that does happen like illegal votes via absentee ballots? Of course you don’t and I’m pretty sure you yourself have said something to the effect that allowing republicans to pass voter ID legislation is simply playing into their hands.

So why would/should we allow laws to restrict women’s bodily autonomy all in the name of something that doesn’t happen?

Well I support laws that make voter fraud illegal even though it’s very rare.

 

[cytg111]

I’ll give you a little tip: if you aren’t an authoritarian then you don’t want government legislating morals and ethics for individuals, which is what you are arguing for. You want your beliefs forced upon others but you don’t give them the same respect and allow them to force their beliefs on you. So why should anyone respect your position?

Any moral or ethical choice is a private one and not one that should be regulated by government or by strangers. So why do you think you or anyone else is privy to making such decisions for anyone but yourself?

Btw, we should note that you have yet to provide any data to support your premise so you are either arguing in bad faith or your whole argument rests purely on your feels.

You cant rip someone's head off for simply examining a question. I think ethical considerations is pr definition one of scale and not per individual?
I dont get the authoritarian part at all, this is per definition what governments do?

Anyway, my two cents
1. Medial reasons, abortion all the way.
2. Uptil feasibility, abort away.
3. After feasibility. Tricky. I am thinking adoption, as in, C section, get fetus out with C section, hospital will grow fetus to completion and then adoption.

When Is It Safe to Deliver Your Baby?

At U of U Health, our knowledgeable providers will be with you every step of the way to ensure a safe and successful preterm birth.

healthcare.utah.edu

For the super liberal amongst us, if abortion uptil 9 months is ok in your book, - why not at 10 months, as in a 1 month old baby? (not taking a moral high road here, I mean if it turns out to have Downs or something... then why not?)

 

[TheVrolok]

Part of the problem here is that the public at large is massively ignorant of when most abortions actually occur.

View attachment 62000

I'll try to look later, but do you happen to know of that data is includes all SAB, TAB, and EAB and whether they specified that when they asked?

 

[Brovane]

and the percentage of abortions performed after viability is? ........ around 1%, and usually for medical reasons.

so why not let the mother and doctor make the best decisions they possibly can under an extremely stressful scenario, instead of having the government mandate an outcome that may not be to the benefit of, or even deadly for - the mother and/or arriving child?

mind you that banning abortions after 24 weeks would also require that pregnant women give birth to non-viable children. which is fucking monstrous.

somehow conservatives love the idea of small government and staying out of people's lives, but when it comes to a woman's uterus, then all of the sudden government is totally ok.

I understand that almost all abortions after medical viability is around 1% and it usually is for medical reasons. I fully support Abortion after 24-weeks when medically necessary. I would in fact encourage some way to make it easier for woman to get a Abortion after 24-weeks when medically necessary. Right now a woman needing a medically necessary Abortion during the 3rd trimester can find it difficult to find a doctor and facility to perform the procedure.

 

[Brovane]

And you are making the assertion that the mother doesn’t take that decision into account. Not only that but you are now using a straw man argument involving viability, of which was not part of any argument I was making AND you have, still, yet to show any women having abortions later into their pregnancy who are healthy as is their baby who are deciding to abort for no medical reasons. How many pages in this thread will be created before you provide that data?

What exactly do you think you are saying to women? You give them less rights than someone not even born yet. Do you not understand your authoritarian blood still runs through you? You want to protect those that don’t exist yet but yet you don’t extend that protection to the living. Do you understand how fucked up that is?

I read this comment from you as that the Fetus doesn't have rights until it is born. Is that a misunderstanding?


I found this Medical Article on "Who Seeks Abortions at or After 20 Weeks?"
Probably better access to Abortion early in the pregnancy would help along with earlier diagnosis of pregnancy. We need to provide more support to expectant mothers in the US. Of course conservatives don't want to acknowledge this despite claiming they have Christian values.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013

Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

Angel, a 24-year-old white woman from Maryland, represents the profile that describes the largest proportion of our sample (47%). At the time of her abortion, she had a 10-month-old daughter, whom she cared for full-time while she looked for paid employment. Her husband had recently been incarcerated, leaving her with no household income. As Angel explained, her daughter was her top priority. When she realized she was pregnant, at 22 weeks, her principal concern was for her daughter. Angel's experience of being a new mother interfered with her ability to detect her pregnancy and, moreover, convinced her that having another child was a bad idea. She believed that having another child would compromise the care she could give her infant daughter: “I knew I couldn't continue with [the pregnancy]. My daughter isn't even a year.” Deciding to have the abortion was very easy for Angel.

Angel had difficulty finding a clinic where she could obtain an abortion. After visiting one facility that could not help her, she found another, three hours away. As late as she was in her pregnancy, the cost of the procedure was daunting: $2,700. But as Angel said, “I was determined.” She paid $300 herself, borrowed $400 from her mother and received aid from three funds that help low-income women pay for their abortions. She had her abortion at 24 weeks.

 

[Zorba]

After a handful of months, it most certainly is. Where do YOU think people come from?

After a few minutes a sprem combines with an egg to fertilize it. So, better not be spilling any seed over there.

 

[ivwshane]

You cant rip someone's head off for simply examining a question. I think ethical considerations is pr definition one of scale and not per individual?
I dont get the authoritarian part at all, this is per definition what governments do?

Anyway, my two cents
1. Medial reasons, abortion all the way.
2. Uptil feasibility, abort away.
3. After feasibility. Tricky. I am thinking adoption, as in, C section, get fetus out with C section, hospital will grow fetus to completion and then adoption.

When Is It Safe to Deliver Your Baby?

At U of U Health, our knowledgeable providers will be with you every step of the way to ensure a safe and successful preterm birth.

healthcare.utah.edu

For the super liberal amongst us, if abortion uptil 9 months is ok in your book, - why not at 10 months, as in a 1 month old baby? (not taking a moral high road here, I mean if it turns out to have Downs or something... then why not?)

Show me it’s an issue. I really don’t care about your fucking feelings. Show me the data. If you want to remove a woman’s right to bodily autonomy you better have actual data that shows it’s necessary.

 

[ivwshane]

I read this comment from you as that the Fetus doesn't have rights until it is born. Is that a misunderstanding?


I found this Medical Article on "Who Seeks Abortions at or After 20 Weeks?"
Probably better access to Abortion early in the pregnancy would help along with earlier diagnosis of pregnancy. We need to provide more support to expectant mothers in the US. Of course conservatives don't want to acknowledge this despite claiming they have Christian values.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1363/4521013

Women aged 20–24 were more likely than those aged 25–34 to have a later abortion (odds ratio, 2.7), and women who discovered their pregnancy before eight weeks’ gestation were less likely than others to do so (0.1). Later abortion recipients experienced logistical delays (e.g., difficulty finding a provider and raising funds for the procedure and travel costs), which compounded other delays in receiving care. Most women seeking later abortion fit at least one of five profiles: They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

Angel, a 24-year-old white woman from Maryland, represents the profile that describes the largest proportion of our sample (47%). At the time of her abortion, she had a 10-month-old daughter, whom she cared for full-time while she looked for paid employment. Her husband had recently been incarcerated, leaving her with no household income. As Angel explained, her daughter was her top priority. When she realized she was pregnant, at 22 weeks, her principal concern was for her daughter. Angel's experience of being a new mother interfered with her ability to detect her pregnancy and, moreover, convinced her that having another child was a bad idea. She believed that having another child would compromise the care she could give her infant daughter: “I knew I couldn't continue with [the pregnancy]. My daughter isn't even a year.” Deciding to have the abortion was very easy for Angel.

Angel had difficulty finding a clinic where she could obtain an abortion. After visiting one facility that could not help her, she found another, three hours away. As late as she was in her pregnancy, the cost of the procedure was daunting: $2,700. But as Angel said, “I was determined.” She paid $300 herself, borrowed $400 from her mother and received aid from three funds that help low-income women pay for their abortions. She had her abortion at 24 weeks.

Yeah, so making it harder to get an abortion doesn’t stop women from getting an abortion, it just costs them more money, more time, and jeopardizes their health even more. So explain why that’s a good thing?