News Roe v. Wade overturned

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eelw

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 1999
8,936
4,261
136
Well I support laws that make voter fraud illegal even though it’s very rare.
Yeah actually submitting your own fake slate of electorates.
Intimidating the Secretary Of State to find votes.
Ordering your VP to ignore the official approved electorates.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,218
136
If I have to explain the point to you then you aren’t gonna get it.
There's a huge difference between laws against voter fraud and voter ID laws. Huge difference. One of them is very important and the other is a waste of time and other resources.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,218
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There is a ethical case to be made that aborting a fetus at 8-weeks isn't the same as aborting one at 24-weeks. The fetus does have moral value at some-point before birth. ...
The value of the fetus is never more than the mother's bodily autonomy. A woman has a right to get it out whenever she wants and however she wants. Same as we can't force you to donate blood to save a kid's life and that's just a two-minute blood draw, not the use of your entire body for months.

That said, once it is out nobody has a right to kill it if it is viable. The really gray area is the window where it could survive only with medical assistance and who should be on the hook for it. My personal preference in this situation would be for the government to pay for it if the baby is no longer wanted and then give it up for adoption.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
There's a huge difference between laws against voter fraud and voter ID laws. Huge difference. One of them is very important and the other is a waste of time and other resources.

You are absolutely correct which is why my original post to him said voter ID laws. Why he chose to make it about voter fraud, I have no idea.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
You are absolutely correct which is why my original post to him said voter ID laws. Why he chose to make it about voter fraud, I have no idea.
I don't get this so I probably shouldn't say anything, but it seems to me that if you are eligible to vote there are qualifications you have to meet. If you want to be able to demonstrate you meet those qualifications seems to me you have to prove who you are, be identified in some manner or other. So voter ID of some kind is going to have to be required to meet that portion of the voting laws that relate to voter identification, no? So while I wouldn't want politicians finagling laws that make it hard to identify who you are, I wouldn't want no such laws so that unqualified people can't vote. I really don't know if this has anything to do wityh what fskimospy is saying but if it's something like I have to agree with him. Sorry if I am out in left field somewhere. I just woke up and it's hot as hell and my brain is mush.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
The reason is because criminalizing voter fraud is the accurate comparison, not voter ID laws.

Lol no it’s not. Late term abortions are rare. Late term abortions because of non medical reasons are even rarer. Removing the right to bodily autonomy of a woman won’t stop either. It’s a solution for a problem that’s virtually non existent that has much bigger negative consequences if enacted. It’s exactly like voter ID laws.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
I don't get this so I probably shouldn't say anything, but it seems to me that if you are eligible to vote there are qualifications you have to meet. If you want to be able to demonstrate you meet those qualifications seems to me you have to prove who you are, be identified in some manner or other. So voter ID of some kind is going to have to be required to meet that portion of the voting laws that relate to voter identification, no? So while I wouldn't want politicians finagling laws that make it hard to identify who you are, I wouldn't want no such laws so that unqualified people can't vote. I really don't know if this has anything to do wityh what fskimospy is saying but if it's something like I have to agree with him. Sorry if I am out in left field somewhere. I just woke up and it's hot as hell and my brain is mush.

The problem with your concern is your premise, there are indeed laws that ensure only lawful voters can vote. Not passing voter ID laws doesn’t mean that no laws exist to protect from illegal voters.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
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Lol no it’s not. Late term abortions are rare. Late term abortions because of none medical reasons are even rarer. Removing the right to bodily autonomy of a woman won’t stop either. It’s a solution for a problem that’s virtually non existent that has much bigger negative consequences. It’s exactly like voter ID laws.
No. With voter ID laws are dumb because they are creating barriers to voting that do not actually reduce the behavior they are looking to stop - voter fraud.

Bans on late term non-medical abortion are simply banning the thing they think should be banned.
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
No. With voter ID laws are dumb because they are creating barriers to voting that do not actually reduce the behavior they are looking to stop - voter fraud.

Bans on late term non-medical abortion are simply banning the thing they think should be banned.

Yeah, things that rarely happen.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
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The problem with your concern is your premise, there are indeed laws that ensure only lawful voters can vote. Not passing voter ID laws doesn’t mean that no laws exist to protect from illegal voters.
I am sure you are trying to make a point and that you feel the point is valid. When I was writing my thoughts fskimo gave you his answer. Mine now doesn't matter. All I was saying was that yes, such laws exist and I support them. The laws that lay out who can vote are laws that to show proof of qualification involve voter ID. Thus I support voter ID laws. They should be good ones that don't allow the unqualified to vote. They should never prevent the qualified from voting.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
I am sure you are trying to make a point and that you feel the point is valid. When I was writing my thoughts fskimo gave you his answer. Mine now doesn't matter. All I was saying was that yes, such laws exist and I support them. The laws that lay out who can vote are laws that to show proof of qualification involve voter ID. Thus I support voter ID laws. They should be good ones that don't allow the unqualified to vote. They should never prevent the qualified from voting.

Well that’s where the problem is isn’t it?;)


Of course that’s besides the point as the point was to show how creating laws based on feeling good, be it voter ID laws, or anti abortion laws, how they do more harm than good and in almost all cases when proposed by republicans they have ulterior motives.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
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Voter fraud is already illegal so what would more voter fraud laws do?
I’m not advocating for new voter fraud laws. I’m saying that we both agree that voter fraud laws are good even though voter fraud is rare, therefore the rarity of late term non-medical abortions is not relevant to whether laws banning them are good or not.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
I’m not advocating for new voter fraud laws. I’m saying that we both agree that voter fraud laws are good even though voter fraud is rare, therefore the rarity of late term non-medical abortions is not relevant to whether laws banning them are good or not.

Except that’s the argument anti choice advocates are using to remove body autonomy from women. So we agree that using such reasoning is bull shit. Late term abortions are rare and not only that but most states already have restrictions, so can you explain why making abortion even more restrictive is good? You may not be advocating for more voter fraud laws but you are advocating for more anti abortion laws using the same reasoning you’ve already rejected for more voter fraud laws.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,717
47,406
136
Except that’s the argument anti choice advocates are using to remove body autonomy from women. So we agree that using such reasoning is bull shit. Late term abortions are rare and not only that but most states already have restrictions, so can you explain why making abortion even more restrictive is good? You may not be advocating for more voter fraud laws but you are advocating for more anti abortion laws using the same reasoning you’ve already rejected for more voter fraud laws.
No, I’m not.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
In my opinion the right has great support because they have convinced people who have a wide range of moral concerns that the more limited moral spectrum of moral values of liberals makes them evil. I would say that the real war to be fought is to show that no matter how wide the range of moral concerns the right may have their basic moral values are insincere and rotton to the core. It is time to call them on what they project on others because what they fear is what drives them to take control. They will make what they fear become reality. Just help them. There is no greater evil I can think of at the moment than to point the finger at others one should be pointing at oneself.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
Except that’s the argument anti choice advocates are using to remove body autonomy from women. So we agree that using such reasoning is bull shit. Late term abortions are rare and not only that but most states already have restrictions, so can you explain why making abortion even more restrictive is good? You may not be advocating for more voter fraud laws but you are advocating for more anti abortion laws using the same reasoning you’ve already rejected for more voter fraud laws.
There is also the rational case of optics, you could of course blast this opinion loud and clear, and lose every single undecided vote come elections… might as well run on banning ALL the guns.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
45,893
32,684
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I'll try to look later, but do you happen to know of that data is includes all SAB, TAB, and EAB and whether they specified that when they asked?

I don't immediately see it cited but I would think only induced abortions figures would be utilized.

Here are the questions they asked:


Screen Shot 2022-05-24 at 6.30.48 AM.png
 

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