Roadmap leaked: Nvidia GeForce GTX 580 to be 20% faster

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
126
www.facebook.com
The gf104 series seems to scale better then the gf100 series, mabe the 384 sp chip will scale even better? AMd did it according to MRK6 with there 6000 series.

This is the fundamentally what every argument about architectural improvements boils down to. People in camp AMD do not think Nvidia can or will release updated and improved cores at 40nm because they do not believe Nvidia is capable of bringing TDP and performance per mm^2 of die space like AMD just brought with the 6850 and 6870.

It's very difficult and often pointless to draw out arguments with people who want to believe something bad enough not reason with logical rationale. The best thing to do would be be to bookmark many of the comments they make and then happily remind them of their errors when they're proven wrong.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Arguing that there are architectural improvements in the HD6000 outside of tessellation is very tough considering it's basically just a cut-down Cypress chip with Redwood memory controller (which is 2x smaller than the HD5870 memory controller).

With 80 TMUs and 1600 SPs, HD5870 is barely faster than an HD6870. Add to this that a 1440 5850 overclocked to HD5870 speeds is within 5%, this likely means that AMD had a major bottleneck somewhere else in their chip (such as only 32 ROPs). I mean how in the world can you have a chip with 1) lower memory bandwidth, 2) lower texture-fill rate, 3) lower shader operations and yet be almost as fast as HD5870? That can only make sense if the 900mhz ROP speed is far more important than just having more TMU and SP units (this likely just means the HD5870 chip had a lot of its TMUs and SPs just underutilized, sitting in idle).

But I still don't understand why anyone would "wish" for NV to continue to fail. We have seen what happens to the markets without competition (9800Pro vs. 5800U, G80 without competition and HD58xx without competition) - absolutely horrible times in videocard choices and even rising high-end prices to boot. So regardless if AMD or NV is in your system, you should want every new high-end card to just annihilate whatever it is you are currently rocking. That's how I look at things because I want faster performance from both sides.
 
Last edited:

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Arguing that there are architectural improvements in the HD6000 outside of tessellation is very tough considering it's basically just a cut-down Cypress chip with Redwood memory controller (which is 2x smaller than the HD5870 memory controller).

With 80 TMUs and 1600 SPs, HD5870 is barely faster than an HD6870.

Okey a 334mm2 part is barely faster than a 255mm2 and then: "Arguing that there are architectural improvements in the HD6000 outside of tessellation is very tough". You have to explain that to me, because it sound like a contradiction in my view ? :)
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
But I don't understand why anyone would "wish" for NV to continue to fail. We have seen what G80 without competition and HD58xx without competition did for the market - absolutely horrible times in videocard choice and overpriced high-end cards to boot. So regardless if AMD or NV is in your system, you should want any and every new card to just annihilate whatever it is you are currently rocking. That's how I look at things

Because they are not normal consumers/buyers like us who want lower prices and faster performance for all, and have a different agenda?
Is there any other explanation?
 

Kenmitch

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,505
2,249
136
But I don't understand why anyone would "wish" for NV to continue to fail. We have seen what G80 without competition and HD58xx without competition did for the market - absolutely horrible times in videocard choice and overpriced high-end cards to boot. So regardless if AMD or NV is in your system, you should want any and every new card to just annihilate whatever it is you are currently rocking. That's how I look at things.

I agree....Best for all if both companies are competetive.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
6,654
5
76
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-6870-radeon-hd-6850-barts,2776-23.html

"How long can Nvidia keep up such a numbers-based fight? Not long, we’d guess, if there’s nothing else waiting in the wings. But this sure would be a good time to introduce a card with a fully-equipped GF104 and 384 CUDA cores enabled (Ed.: I can’t comment, but I know something that you don’t, Don)."

There are growing signs of a replacement to the venerable GTX 460, 470, and/or 480. Makes me wonder if I should have waited longer. But I waited 2 months on a lowly IGP already. It's hard to wait even longer for an unannounced product with no firm leaks.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
126
www.facebook.com
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-6870-radeon-hd-6850-barts,2776-23.html

"How long can Nvidia keep up such a numbers-based fight? Not long, we’d guess, if there’s nothing else waiting in the wings. But this sure would be a good time to introduce a card with a fully-equipped GF104 and 384 CUDA cores enabled (Ed.: I can’t comment, but I know something that you don’t, Don)."

There are growing signs of a replacement to the venerable GTX 460, 470, and/or 480. Makes me wonder if I should have waited longer. But I waited 2 months on a lowly IGP already. It's hard to wait even longer for an unannounced product with no firm leaks.

Hahaha I beat you to this by a week! http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=30643990&highlight=#post30643990 :D

Given the huge price gap Nvidia has between the gtx470 and gtx480, I see this part coming in at around $289. Of course performance has to match that, though, and it's an extremely competitive market right now. I said 3 weeks after the 6800 launch.... so I've got 15 days for Nvidia to prove me wrong.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Okey a 334mm2 part is barely faster than a 255mm2 and then: "Arguing that there are architectural improvements in the HD6000 outside of tessellation is very tough". You have to explain that to me, because it sound like a contradiction in my view ? :)

I guess I was less than clear in my post. My bad! Ok let me try to explain this again. The reason Barts XT is almost as fast as previous Cypress chips is NOT because of efficiencies of Barts, but rather because of the inefficiences of Cypress. AMD simply overshot by including too many TMUs and SPs and straddled the chip with only 32 ROPs. The problem is those 1600 SPs and TMUs could never be fully used since they are always being bottlenecked.

Take a look at 850mhz HD5850 vs. 850mhz HD5870.

At the same speed, HD5850 and 5870 are basically performing within 3% of each other, despite HD5870 still having a 9% memory bandwidth advantage, 11% shader throughput advantage, 11% texture fill-rate advantage vs. an 850mhz HD5850. Basically, the extra bandwidth, shaders and texture units are being underutilized in the HD5870.

So what did AMD do? They simply removed the extra TMUs and Shaders that were being underutilized (in other words the major bottlenecks in Cypress prevented the chip from fully taking advantage of 80 TMUs and 1600 SPs). Next was acknowledging that the memory bandwidth was also wasteful (just like it was on HD4890). It was logical for them to reduce the design of the memory controller since supporting slower 4GB/sec memory chips still yielded more than satisfactory memory bandwidth. A less complex memory controller from Redwood took 2x less space than the Cypress memory controller on the GPU die.

Thus far, no one on the interent has published any evidence to support the view that SPs, ROPs or TMUs have been redesigned. It looks like they didn't actually make the TMUs or SPs or ROPs by themselves any more efficient. They simply removed all the extra stuff that wasn't doing much.

Also consider this. 1440 SP @ 725mhz HD5850 has 28% more shaders than HD6870 but HD6870 has 24% faster clock speeds. So in essence, the 2 almost offset one another (but of course 900mhz ROPs > 725mhz ROPs and since ROP is likely the bottleneck, it makes sense that HD6870 is slightly faster than the HD5850).

As opposed to looking at Barts XT as an architectural "re-engineering", it's rather a more well-balanced design of TMUs:ROPs:SPs than Cypress was. You can see how Fermi GTX470 with a whooping 448 SPs is not much faster than the 336 SPs of GTX460, as a result of having less texture fill-rate than the GF104 chip. Again, another chip that's not well balanced.
 
Last edited:

betasub

Platinum Member
Mar 22, 2006
2,677
0
0
^ Which is why the true replacements for the 58xx cards will require >>32 ROPs if they are to support such a large number of SPs/TMUs.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
@RussianSensation

I agree to most of that, but they did do a few other things too.

They made improvements on the tesselator (+50~100% increase in 1-13 factors).
They improved their anisotropic filtering/texture filtering.
They improved idle/load power draws (probably just because its smaller).
They added HDMI 1.4a 1080p 3D stereoscopy movies, 720p games 60hz/eye.
They added Direct X Video Acceleration with pixel (image) sharpening.
They improved their crossfire scaleing.
You can now use 6 screens with 1 card,

I dont know how much of this is just because they ballanced the chip better.. but overall Id take a 6870 over a 5850 anyday... maybe even over a 5870. The texture/AA thingy is really nice... *cough* shimmering effects *cough*.

Im probably missing more features they improved on but in general there has been alot of small tweaks. That they managed to get 35% more performance/mm^2 is impressive.
 
Last edited:

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Arkadrel, I agree with all of the above points. But,

1. Tessellation is still not as fast as NV's 1st generation. So it's a moot point when you are still far behind.

2. Filtering is now ~ equal to NV's. Again only getting you on par.

3. HDMI 1.4A, 3D, etc. is only relevant if you are going to run 3D. In that case, it's far better to go with NV in the first place since they have a more robust 3D support solution/games support. However, 3D gaming is moot imo for $200 videocards since they aren't fast enough; and 3D setups cost an arm and a leg.

4. Most LCDs still don't ship with Display Port adapters. Since they downgraded 2 DL-DVI to 1 DL-DVI and 1 DVI port, on the DVI side you are still limited to 1920x1080 & 2560x1600. And since there are no adapters for mini-DP to get 6 displays running, it's impossible to have 6 displays right now iirc. When it will be possible, the adapter is projected to cost $150+. So again, a moot point.

Out of everything you listed, the most important are lower prices and power consumption in this launch. Performance wise, it's only as good as GTX460/OCed, so again nothing special here (i.e., they didnt' really change the performance on the mid-range market).
 
Last edited:

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,110
1,260
126
Arkadrel, I agree with all of the above points. But,

1. Tessellation is still not as fast as NV's 1st generation. So it's a moot point when you are still far behind.

2. Filtering is now ~ equal to NV's. Again only getting you on par.

3. HDMI 1.4A, 3D, etc. is only relevant if you are going to run 3D. In that case, it's far better to go with NV in the first place since they have a more robust 3D support solution/games support. However, 3D gaming is moot imo for $200 videocards since they aren't fast enough; and 3D setups cost an arm and a leg.

4. Most LCDs still don't ship with Display Port adapters. Since they downgraded 2 DL-DVI to 1 DL-DVI and 1 DVI port, on the DVI side you are still limited to 1920x1080 & 2560x1600. And since there are no adapters for mini-DP to get 6 displays running, it's impossible to have 6 displays right now iirc. When it will be possible, the adapter is projected to cost $150+. So again, a moot point.

Out of everything you listed, the most important are lower prices and power consumption in this launch. Performance wise, it's only as good as GTX460/OCed, so again nothing special here (i.e., they didnt' really change the performance on the mid-range market).

The most significant improvement AMD has made in 68XX is the Crossfire scaling improvements. An overclocked 460 is on parity with 6870 but the same overclocked 460s are slower than Crossfired 6870s and lose their parity with the 6870.

If we see the scaling improvements carried over to the 6970 and more importantly the 6990 this will make these halo parts truly shine when compared to whatever NV is going to release to counter them.

With these below rumors, it looks as if there may be very tight competition for single-gpu and AMD will continue to have the single-card crown in 6990.

On this topic, Chiphell has some speculation/rumors on GTX 5XX series. Napoleon generally has decent info and got quite a bit right about the 6XXX and 5XXX launches. He is saying there is expectation NV is releasing what they're going to call GTX 580 and GTX 570 at the end of November to try and offset the 6970/6950 launch. GTX 560 is claimed to be next year. He has pegged GTX 580 clockspeed at 772core/1102memory with 80% the power draw of the GTX 480.

Estimates per his rumors are GTX 570=GTX 480 and GTX580=GTX480+20%. The rumor has some sense to it over the 384sp 460 rumors. That card will hold no water against 6950 and 6970 which is expected to perform as 6950=GTX 480, 6970=GTX480+20-30%. NV will probably prefer to move all the 460 stock they can before they release a replacement as well and I can see why they will delay that card's replacement until next year.

http://translate.googleusercontent....gle.ca&usg=ALkJrhhymbCD5OcnW2oVoB5bShAMFCrJUw


http://translate.googleusercontent....gle.ca&usg=ALkJrhhlTE-YXBMBJD9_XH4r3EYj1Y5YsQ

There are also some pictures

nvidia_geforce_gtx_580_chiphell.jpg



This is good news for people wanting to buy single-gpu halo products. If the 6970 commands even a 10% performance lead on this GTX 5XX card or if they fall even, either way it will be so close that neither company will be able to get away with $500 price tags hopefully. About the only card we'll see with a huge price will be 6990.

I actually think I will sit out these new single-gpu. Neither is bringing enough performance over what is already out there. Unless 6990 receives the aforementioned scaling improvements in 2x6990 quad-fire, but that will probably cost $1400.
 
Last edited:

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
SO the gtx 580 to be 20% faster then the gtx480 but using 20% less power.

Where is all the guys that said , "NVIDIA cant do it" now?

Then again this is still a rumor.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
The most significant improvement AMD has made in 68XX is the Crossfire scaling improvements.

CF scaling improvements are impressive, for sure.

He has pegged GTX 580 clockspeed at 772core/1102memory with 80% the power draw of the GTX 480. Estimates per his rumors are GTX 570=GTX 480 and GTX580=GTX480+20%. The rumor has some sense to it over the 384sp 460 rumors. That card will hold no water against 6950 and 6970 which is expected to perform as 6950=GTX 480, 6970=GTX480+20-30%.

Great new info Groove. Thanks for finding this out.

Napoleon also noted that GTX580 = "OC to 850MHz no problem, running points beyond the HD5970 ~". So that might put it very close with the HD6970.

Do you still think it's realistic for NV to launch these cards in high volume by the end of this year though? I am pretty sure AMD has been building up production of HD69xx for a while now.
 
Last edited:

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
"Do you still think it's realistic for NV to launch these cards in high volume by the end of this year?"

AIBs have got most of the information for Cayman cards.
According to a graphics card vendor (who does both AMD and NVIDIA cards), the current volume for Cayman cards is more than 10 times as the GeForce GTX 580 cards.

If all goes well, there will be more than 50,000 Cayman XT cards and more than 100,000 Cayman PRO cards available before Christmas.
From semi accurate.... If theres like 15,000 of the 570+580 total ready by christmas, vs 150,000 of the 6950+6970. What makes you think Nvidia will release first?

Rumors do seem to say that 570 = 480 ish performance, and that 570 and 580 have lower power usage in general.

looks like it ll be:
6850 = 570
6970 = 580
6990 = fastest singel card on market. (multi gpu though)

Will be fun to see which hold the performance crown, even if speculation seem to suggest the 6970.
 
Last edited:

StrangerGuy

Diamond Member
May 9, 2004
8,443
124
106
Why do Nvidia think it needs to start a new lineup for a mere GTX480 rename? They think the current product lineup isn't confusing enough already?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,110
1,260
126
CF scaling improvements are impressive, for sure.



Great new info Groove. Thanks for finding this out.

Napoleon also noted that GTX580 = "OC to 850MHz no problem, running points beyond the HD5970 ~". So that might put it very close with the HD6970.

Do you still think it's realistic for NV to launch these cards in high volume by the end of this year though? I am pretty sure AMD has been building up production of HD69xx for a while now.

I can believe that estimate that the 580 clocked to 850 is close to a 5970. I've seen benches of a GTX 480 at 990 on the core that was neck and neck with a 5970 in some games.

Who knows about how much they'll have available to sell if this rumor is true. I wouldn't be surprised to see them sell out and be hard to come by initially though ;) Probably be some price-gauging at the outset on the 6970 as well and this rumored NV card if it comes out.

What this card really sounds like is what the GTX 480 was supposed to be, doesn't it ?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,110
1,260
126
Why do Nvidia think it needs to start a new lineup for a mere GTX480 rename? They think the current product lineup isn't confusing enough already?

It's a small bump, yes. I think the naming is entirely to do with the fact that AMD's cards are now named 6XXX.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Why do Nvidia think it needs to start a new lineup for a mere GTX480 rename? They think the current product lineup isn't confusing enough already?

Agreed. But now that AMD just decided to call Cypress chips HD68xx series, NV must launch something that signifies a new generation, even if it isn't, just to keep up with the marketing BS. They should have called the new cards GTX475/485/495 imo.

Intel's naming scheme is even more of a mess. i7-2600K. WTF is that? Sounds like a codename for a chemical or a star in the galaxy.
 
Last edited:

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
6,734
514
126
www.facebook.com
If Nvidia can't retain the single GPU performance crown, it's going to be very interesting to see what kind of prices we end up with from both camps.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
Agreed. But now that AMD just decided to call Cypress chips HD68xx series, NV must launch something that signifies a new generation, even if it isn't, just to keep up with the marketing BS. They should have called the new cards GTX475/485/495 imo.

Intel's naming scheme is even more of a mess. i7-2600K. WTF is that? Sounds like a codename for a chemical or a star in the galaxy.


Bolded part of your post is BS and you know it. Stop treating the 68xx series as the replacement for the 58xx series and actually accept that it, if anything, is a replacement for their midrange product, the 57xx.

This cannot be argued since the 69xx series will replace the 58xx series in a month or two.

If you then consider the performance increase 57xx->68xx and the same when 58xx-->69xx, you cant possibly just call it a an evergreen.

Please stop posting this particular piece of nonsense and misinformation RS. Its no good for the new forum members or new graphics card purchaser.


The part in italic/underlined: i doubt AMD can catch up with Nvidia on marketting bullshit. AMD is just not as good at it as Nvidia.
 

Phil1977

Senior member
Dec 8, 2009
228
0
0
Hey guys you might want to know what the video market is like in Australia...

We also got the 6850s and 6870s. However pricing over here isn't good. According to the AMD slides, these cards are meant to go against and be priced against the GTX460 768 and 1 GB.

However shops here charge a premium, basically giving all the sales to Nvidia. The whole point in making Barts was to fight the GTX460. Why hold back? It doesn't make sense. Either fight hard or stay at home... Especially as over here people choose Nvidia if both cards offer similar value. So really AMD needs to be cheaper than Nvidia but it seems over here that AMD is price skimming and Nvidia is the agressive one.

Also GTX470s are being sold off. Latest special is A$ 249 which is the price of a 460 1GB or 6850 over here! We believe the 475 is going to launch very soon. 460 768 have virtually disappeared (they got sooo cheap down to A$ 179).

Either way prices are coming down and we are getting more bang for our buck. I got a 460 768 as over here for 180 bucks it's the best value deal.
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
damn, is australian dollars worth more or less than the US dollar. I guess its worth less, but just asking anyway.

GTX470s being sold of is a great thing for all parts. Nvidia is very likely selling them at a major loss. but can afford the loss. Nvidia is also, from rumors, preparing to release more power efficient and likely smaller (dont quote me on this part) dies refresh of Fermi.

Time will show how the highend products later this year will position themselves
 

Phil1977

Senior member
Dec 8, 2009
228
0
0
A$ is a tiny bit weaker, but our market is much much smaller of course. I'm happy at all that we even get these video cards at launch day :)

Oh yea Nvidia will fight back that's for sure. They allways had that fighting spirit that ATI/AMD seemed to lack (e.g. did ATI really make the most out of the Fermi opportunity given to them?). I guess it's because they have a no Fuss/BS CEO :)
 

Madcatatlas

Golden Member
Feb 22, 2010
1,155
0
0
Ye, AMD is definetly lacking that fighting spirit. Kinda funny how they have 85% of the Dx11 market and well..lol they actually recovered from the horrible R600 mess. I wish they`d just lay down under a big stone and die. Nvidia fights on!