Roadmap leaked: Nvidia GeForce GTX 580 to be 20% faster

[RussianSensation]

The GTX 460 has actually only been out just over 3 months. Not too long of a run for NVIDIA, IMO.

GTX470s were often available for $230-250 for 5 months prior to HD6870 launch. :sneaky:

Also GTX460 has been out for almost 4 months since it came out July 11, 2010. So I was wrong about the 5 months.

6870 is a replacement for the 5770.

NO, it isn't. Stop spreading false information.

HD5770 MSRP $159 --> HD6870 MSRP $239
HD5760 MSRP $109-129 --> HD6850 MSRP $179

Source.

They are repositioning of the product lineup into the $180-230 mid-range price levels. It's more costly to manufacture a $240 HD5850 and a $180 HD5830. HD68xx series have NOTHING to do with HD5750/70 because the HD57xx was never positioned as a $200 mid-range card...

 

[MrK6]

How much faster is the 6870 over the 5870?

Is it going to fail miserably for being <=20% faster?

Context matters, and you guys seem to be setting up the context here such that no matter what Nvidia does they are assured failure (in your opinions) just for showing up to the game.

If I were a cynic I might be inclined to think I am witnessing two sides to the same coin here...between the "ZOMG Nvidia is teh doomed" threads and the "ZOMG AMD tesselation is teh suckzors" threads.

Luckily for you guys I am not a cynic...😉

For the high-end, yes. NVIDIA has shown that all it cares about is raw performance with it's flagship cards. However, it seems they've set themselves up for a major flop (again?) this time around. Not only are they going to have to reign in their performance/watt figures to something that isn't laughable, but they'll also have to increase performance overall. I'm not a GPU guru, but I don't see this as a good situation for a manufacturer to be in. The GTX 460 showed to be an improvement over the GTX 465 - they got a $200 gaming part with much better performance/watt. However, they didn't increase performance much, if at all (1% according to techpowerup: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/GTX_460_HAWK/28.html ). So even if NVIDIA works its magic again on the GTX 480 and makes a GTX480+ that's super power efficient, well, AMD already had that a la the 5870 a year ago. NVIDIA has done this in the past (8800GTX -> 8800GTS 512), but that was with a die-shrink. What I'm saying is, there's no precedence for this kind of insane squeezing of performance out of the silicon. Also considering rumored 6970 performance, it just doesn't look like there's going to be any competition in the high-end again. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that it doesn't look good.

My math is simplified but my point remains absolutely valid - gf104 consumes less power and provides greater performance per mm^2 than gf100.

That's wasn't exactly difficult to accomplish. NVIDIA sacrificed and cut out a lot of the GPGPU in GF104 to make a barely competitive gaming card.

And the fact that gf104 came out right on the heels of gf100 is telling that any other architectural updates nvidia release on 40nm will be accompanied with power draw and performance per mm^2 of die space that amd just demonstrated.

How so? Did you find any information that indicated such? NVIDIA is still well behind AMD in performance/watt: http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/Radeon_HD_6870/30.html ; they have a lot of room to make up.

GTX470s were often available for $230-250 for 5 months prior to HD6870 launch. :sneaky:

What's your point?

Also GTX460 has been out for almost 4 months since it came out July 11, 2010. So I was wrong about the 5 months.

So they've been out 3 months and two weeks, which is less than three and a half months, and therefore I round down to three months.

 

[happy medium]

OK so Nvidia's going to release a dual 768 sp part at ultra low clock speed (500 core), with 2 8 pin power connectors and it will be able to overclock over 40&#37; with no voltage bump.

That sounds fast enough to me. Sounds faster then dual gtx 480's in sli.

 

[RussianSensation]

What's your point?

You said NV only had a "good run" for 3 months. However, they had better price/performance on the high end for far longer than that with GTX470 / GTX470 SLI series. The reason NV failed miserably this generation is because they had nothing decent in the <$100 and $100-200 market until GTX460 launched and because their cards launched late. However, once GTX460 and 470 were launched, NV had competitive mid-high-end for far longer than 3 months.

HD6870 series actually didn't bring anything to the table performance wise. HD6870 performance was available in a GTX470 for 5 months+ at $230-250, but yet you always dismissed it, no?

 

[Genx87]

Honestly I question how much a failure the G100 cards were when you consider the financial situation of both products. Nvidia posts a healthy profit while AMD doesnt. But that is for another thread. At the end of the day you can have all the market share in the world. But if it nets you no profits what does it really matter?

 

[MrK6]

OK so Nvidia's going to release a dual 768 sp part at ultra low clock speed (500 core), with 2 8 pin power connectors and it will be able to overclock over 40% with no voltage bump.

That sounds fast enough to me. Sounds faster then dual gtx 480's in sli.

Not if they want PCIe certification 😉.

You said NV only had a "good run" for 3 months. However, they had better price/performance on the high end for far longer than that with GTX470 / GTX470 SLI series. The reason NV failed miserably this generation is because they had nothing decent in the <$100 and $100-200 market until GTX460 launched and because their cards launched late. However, once GTX460 and 470 were launched, NV had competitive mid-high-end for far longer than 3 months.

Didn't we just cover that the GTX 460 was released only 3 months and two weeks ago. Two weeks is "far longer?" 🙄. And the GTX 470 wasn't competitive until they dropped the price to <$270, which wasn't really until about three months ago as well. Even then, as I already said, they were barely competitive with AMD's nine month old 58xx cards.

HD6870 series actually didn't bring anything to the table performance wise. HD6870 performance was available in a GTX470 for 5 months+ at $230-250, but yet you always dismissed it, no?

Why would the 6870 bring something new to the table performance-wise? It's a midrange part. And the 5850 was available for <$260 for months as well, but amazingly you don't remember or cite that. Why would I recommend the inferior GTX 470 when I can get a 5850 for the same price?

 

[OCGuy]

No matter what this rumor thread said, there would be the same predictable few people who would find something wrong with it, much like IDC alluded to.

I'll resever judgement until there are believable leaked benchmarks, or post-NDA benchmarks/analysis.

 

[Arkadrel]

Not if they want PCIe certification 😉.

+1

480 is already near the limits, but maybe nvidia figoured out a way to reduce power alot on the 580s? From my perspective if you want less power, it usually comes at the cost of one thing or another.

Fermis biggest weakness is the powerdraw... if they make chips bigger than the 480s 529mm^2 they might not be able to get them PCI certified.

Maybe its time we start building new motherboards with something differnt than a PCIe? all nvidia has to do is convince the motherboard manufactures that its needed for their 580s.

 

[busydude]

My math is simplified but my point remains absolutely valid - gf104 consumes less power and provides greater performance per mm^2 than gf100. And the fact that gf104 came out right on the heels of gf100 is telling that any other architectural updates nvidia release on 40nm will be accompanied with power draw and performance per mm^2 of die space that amd just demonstrated.

I was not arguing whether Barts is better than GF104, In fact I was just proving your point that GF104 has higher transistors/mm^2 than GF 100(Although the numbers are extremely close).

We have to keep in mind though, Nvidia does not release the exact die sizes, all we have is rough estimates of them.

 

[RussianSensation]

Why would the 6870 bring something new to the table performance-wise? It's a midrange part.

So it took them 13 months to bring out a $239 part that's only 10&#37; faster than a $259 HD5850? And now you can get a $200 5850 on the market. Great launch indeed. :thumbsup: I bet you also thought an HD5770 was a great replacement for the HD4870/4890 series.

13 months brought massive improvement, I can see that.

And the 5850 was available for <$260 for months as well, but amazingly you don't remember or cite that. Why would I recommend the inferior GTX 470 when I can get a 5850 for the same price?

I have always cited the fact that HD5850 was available for <$260. Of course, it still made it so-so considering a $260 GTX470 was only 10% slower than an HD5870 < 1920x1200, cost $80-90 less and came w/ 2-3 free games and lifetime warranty. I suppose I can understand how lifetime warranty and free games are not important to some.

I really want HD69xx to smoke Fermi cards because so far AMD has not released anything to warrant an upgrade.

 

[Madcatatlas]

ye you are right about that RS, since the 5870 and 5970, theres really not been anything to upgrade to. Lets hope 6950/70 and 90 are the ones that me and you upgrade to, being a jump in performance more than 50&#37; of the 5870. Hey, we can HOPE!

 

[Grooveriding]

OK so Nvidia's going to release a dual 768 sp part at ultra low clock speed (500 core), with 2 8 pin power connectors and it will be able to overclock over 40% with no voltage bump.

That sounds fast enough to me. Sounds faster then dual gtx 480's in sli.

Considering every estimate has put a 384SP 460 below a 480, it's a pipedream thinking it will even match 480 SLI, much less outperform it.

 

[Grooveriding]

So it took them 13 months to bring out a $239 part that's only 10&#37; faster than a $259 HD5850? And now you can get a $200 5850 on the market. Great launch indeed. :thumbsup: I bet you also thought an HD5770 was a great replacement for the HD4870/4890 series.

13 months brought massive improvement, I can see that.

I have always cited the fact that HD5850 was available for <$260. Of course, it still made it so-so considering a $260 GTX470 was only 10% slower than an HD5870 < 1920x1200, cost $80-90 less and came w/ 2-3 free games and lifetime warranty. I suppose I can understand how lifetime warranty and free games are not important to some.

I really want HD69xx to smoke Fermi cards because so far AMD has not released anything to warrant an upgrade.

Was anyone expecting to be wowed by the 6870 & 6850 performance ? If so I have no idea how this could of been.

I thought it was accepted these would be mid-range cards that performed close to/on par to the level of the previous gen's high end for a cheaper price, they both delivered on that. That and AMD wanted to compete against the 460. They came out with a card that is cheap to produce and priced cheaply, performs on par in single card to 460, outperforms 460 SLI in Crossfire.

When have mid-range cards ever been something to be excited about ? I certainly wasn't excited about the GTX 460.

The only exciting thing I've seen yet in the 6870 launch is the highly improved Crossfire scaling and that is only exciting because it's something to speculate about when you wonder how 6970 Crossfire and 6990 are going to perform with those improvements.

Your own linked bench shows the 6870, a mid-range card, delivering 5870 performance for half the price.

There's something to be excited about, 6870 Crossfire almost as fast as 480SLI, what is that going to mean for 6970 CF and 6990 ?

Things will be exciting next month when AMD releases cards that are faster than anything else on the market, flagships are always the exciting cards. 5870/5850 was an exciting launch because they released before 5770. This time its in the reverse.

 

[Arkadrel]

more pretty pictures? yes some games favor one card over the other and vise versa.


"So it took them 13 months to bring out a $239 part that's only 10&#37; faster than a $259 HD5850"

6870 is 255mm^2 and has 19 idle / 151 load watt use.
5870 is 334mm^2 and has 27 idle / 188 load watt use.
_470 is 529mm^2 and has 29 idle / 232 load watt use.

529 / 255 = 2.1 rounded up. So you can say the 470 is 210% the size of the 6870.

So its smaller, cheaper to make, and thus can sell at a cheaper price point, why is that a bad thing? Uses less power overall too.


6870 vs 470:
19 vs 29 idle watt = 50% higher idle power usage (on a 470 with simular-ish performance)
151 vs 232 load watt = 54% higher load power usage (on a 470 with simular-ish performance)

For those curious about the 480 = 320 load watts / 54 watt idle. ^-^

Price:
6870 vs 470:
239.99$ vs 259.99$ (both the cheapest models on newegg)

I wouldnt say the 68xx is a flop... its a decent card, thats ment to be cheap for gamers and offer good performance, and not use insane amounts of power.

 

[NoQuarter]

GTX470s were often available for $230-250 for 5 months prior to HD6870 launch. :sneaky:

Also GTX460 has been out for almost 4 months since it came out July 11, 2010. So I was wrong about the 5 months.



NO, it isn't. Stop spreading false information.

HD5770 MSRP $159 --> HD6870 MSRP $239
HD5760 MSRP $109-129 --> HD6850 MSRP $179

Source.

They are repositioning of the product lineup into the $180-230 mid-range price levels. It's more costly to manufacture a $240 HD5850 and a $180 HD5830. HD68xx series have NOTHING to do with HD5750/70 because the HD57xx was never positioned as a $200 mid-range card...

The 5770 released at $179 that's why it's the replacement for that part. Should be the 6850 though not the 6870. Serving the same segment of the market that the 5770 was designed for.

 

[AnandThenMan]

Looking at those charts, the 6870 in Xfire is nearly on par with an SLI'd GTX480. Given the power consumption of the 6870, AMD could slap two of them together and have a 6990 with sensational performance on a single card. But AMD will probably use a lower clocked and binned Cayman for the 6990, which will bring even higher performance.

So for the single card performance crown, Nvidia can't go there. But the GTX580 I think could definitely end up the fastest single GPU card.

 

[RussianSensation]

Your own linked bench shows the 6870, a mid-range card, delivering 5870 performance for half the price.

True! Then again HD5870 was darn expensive at $350+ when HD5850s were only $250 and both overclocked were within 5&#37; of each other. So compared to the 5850, it's not as exciting.

There's something to be excited about, 6870 Crossfire almost as fast as 480SLI, what is that going to mean for 6970 CF and 6990 ?

CF scaling improvements are awesome on the new HD68xx series. No doubt about that. :thumbsup: HD58xx series also performed very well at 2560x1600. So NV has a lot to improve on for guys like you.

Things will be exciting next month when AMD releases cards that are faster than anything else on the market, flagships are always the exciting cards.

I sure hope 6990 smacks HD5970 and GTX480 is obliterated by the 6970. I look forward to upgrading to faster high end cards in 12 months 🙂

 

[edplayer]

The 5770 released at $179 that's why it's the replacement for that part. Should be the 6850 though not the 6870. Serving the same segment of the market that the 5770 was designed for.

It is not the replacement part. First, it would have to be replacing it, which it is not (big clue right there). Msrp at launch was/is $159

 

[Arkadrel]

I thought the 6970 was going to be out next mouth (3 weeks time or so). RussianSensation, you dont have to wait 12 months, unless your waiting on the 7xxx series on 28nm?

 

[NoQuarter]

It is not the replacement part. First, it would have to be replacing it, which it is not (big clue right there). Msrp at launch was/is $159

Ok, what's the word I should use that indicates the 6850 is aligned at both the same market segment and same position within the generation's product lineup as the 5770 was? Of course it doesn't literally replace the 5770 but it fills the exact same role for the 6xxx generation as the 5770 did for the 5xxx generation.

 

[edplayer]

why try to fit it into just one word when you can thoroughly explain your idea (which you already did)?


you don't have to pay by the word, this forum is free!

 

[AnandThenMan]

you don't have to pay by the word, this forum is free!

I wonder what posts here would be like if we did pay by the word. :hmm:

 

[betasub]

I wonder what posts here would be like if we did pay by the word. :hmm:

Terse?

 

[happy medium]

Considering every estimate has put a 384SP 460 below a 480, it's a pipedream thinking it will even match 480 SLI, much less outperform it.

The gf104 series seems to scale better then the gf100 series, mabe the 384 sp chip will scale even better? AMd did it according to MRK6 with there 6000 series.

Not if they want PCIe certification .

They will make it under 300 watts especially at a 500 core clock rate. Then let us overclock it like we can with the gtx460 to 900 mhz core.
Thats on way to beat the certification limit.

 

[RussianSensation]

I thought the 6970 was going to be out next mouth (3 weeks time or so). RussianSensation, you dont have to wait 12 months, unless your waiting on the 7xxx series on 28nm?

I tend upgrade near the end of the product generation because I like to buy previous gen high end cards for ~$200 not $350+. I find for my resolution of 1920x1080, I don't need the latest and greatest on launch date. Plus after seeing $500+ 8800GTX and $650 GTX280 plummet in price after 12 months of release (and well just about every $500 high-end card before that in the last 10 years), I tend to be a late adopter. This also explains why I want the high-end cards to be as fast as possible compared to previous generation high-end because that's what I will probably buy at a cheaper price in 12 months+ 😀 Since the HD6970 is the next high-end part I am aware about, I am excited at what it will bring.