Religious people are either fundamentalists or hypocrites

[Moonbeam]

So from a different perspective, what I was saying about the problem with religion is that to a non believer, the fact that there are as many different ones as there are believers makes them all sound absurd. How much truth can you really have believing pretty much what everybody around you that raised you believes. In Moslem countries people are Moslems, in Tibet they are Buddhists, in England, Anglican and so on and so forth. What sane person looking at that says to himself, man o man am I lucky. Of all the many many religions in the world, I just happened to discover and fall for the only one that's right.

Blow all the smoke you want, the chance that you will convince a non believer that you know the truth are nil. Religious people are nothing if not programmed.

But if instead, the facts were that all religions are embers of the same fire, glints from the same jewel, differing aspects of the same transidental reality then the presence of religiousness in the world, its spontaneous occurrance everywhere to all people in one form or another, the notion that we really are refering to an elephant that few see in perspective, then we might have some hope that we don't need to kill each other in this or that religious war, but begin to celebrate our common inheritance and maybe begin to try to extract the real meaning of what was originally intended. Maybe we could stop trying to burn each others bridges and cross them.

If the Devil were truly as cleaver as Christians make him out to be, I think he would want to sneek the notion into Christianity or any other religion that it is the one and only true way. That's the way to make a hell on earth, the one we see all around us.

 

[Moonbeam]

The Mods gave Elledan an Easter break so we can enjoy ours.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

<< The Mods gave Elledan an Easter break so we can enjoy ours. >>



:Q
What did he do? Posting a bit too much in the 'Happy Easter' thread? Stayed out of there for that reason

Anyway, I've agree with your points, that religion is more based on cultural background (and in some cases: wanting to believe) than on logical reasoning.
And my biggest anti-religion thingie is indeed the devil being so evil, but apparently so dumb that he can't do the same thing as all those cult-leaders, but then on a bigger scale. Either there is no devil and the evil comes from mankind itself, or there is one and we cannot trust any of those religious books anymore, as they may as well have been written by the devil. And yes, I do believe a smart devil would write a religious text based mostly on truth and goodness, as it is much easier to corrupt someone if that person can be fooled into thinking he or she is actually doing good.

 

[docmanhattan]

<<

<< Whitedog


<< Good Lord, I can't believe I'm replying to this thread agian.

Docman, what are you saying Christians are justified at? Sinning? Because we have Gods grace? Are we supposed to have the attitude of "I know I will sin, and I know God will forgive me"? Please answer that. That's what it sounded like you were saying.
>>

That's exactly what I'm saying.

So let me ask you this: since you are a Chirstian, you never sin anymore? ...Ever? ...You're telling me that you never, ever sin?

I hate to break it to you. We're all broken people. We all sin. And I'm not talking about the dire things like adultry and murder. I'm talking about everything. The stuff that happens everyday. The practical stuff. Taking the Lord's name in vain. Pr0n. Stealing. Swearing. Unkindness. Laziness. All of it. Jesus was the only on that was free of sin. We're going to sin. It's going to happen. Deal with it. But the bonus is that we're already forgiven because of Jesus. And the reason it's a bonus is because we know, as Christians that God loves and will continue to love us in light of our sin. And, of course, the next post will be the antagonist saying, "So if a Christian kills a person, they're forgiven." That's not what I'm talking. That obviously falls into the catagory of things that are considered deadly sins.

Do you see where I'm going with this, Whitedog? It's not about having some sort of attitude. It's a freedom from the guilt that keeps Christians from knowing that God loves them. Satan's done a good job of that. He's convinced people that their salvation is dependent on good works which is quite the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that comes from accepting Christ. You don't get it from 1000 hours of volunteer service and you don't lose it because you had a weak moment and blew up at a co-worker or missed church on sunday.

Cheers. >>



I think you have it wrong. We are held acountable for our actions. Jesus didnt give us a free pass to sin. Its a dificult concept and its often abused. It doesnt even have to be a deadly sin. It just has to be a disregard for God. At least this is my view and many other theologians, and philosophers. The bible isnt an instruction manual. It is infaliable, and it is true, but it isnt an instruction manual. I think a previous poster got it right when he said many so called christians seek to twist its meaning to what suits them. And that goes for both sides the fence.


Ill never forget a quote one of my pastors said. I would add that he was quoting someone else.. "Christianity has managed to survive 2000 years of christians... there must be something to it." >>

travler Re-read my posts and you'll see that I said that we're held accountable for our actions. We're both saying the same thing.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< Anyway, I've agree with your points, that religion is more based on cultural background (and in some cases: wanting to believe) than on logical reasoning.
And my biggest anti-religion thingie is indeed the devil being so evil, but apparently so dumb that he can't do the same thing as all those cult-leaders, but then on a bigger scale. Either there is no devil and the evil comes from mankind itself, or there is one and we cannot trust any of those religious books anymore, as they may as well have been written by the devil. And yes, I do believe a smart devil would write a religious text based mostly on truth and goodness, as it is much easier to corrupt someone if that person can be fooled into thinking he or she is actually doing good.
>>



interesting theory. i believe that the "devil" is much smarter than most religions give him credit for. It's also what you believe his motivation to be.

anyway, you discuss the possible ramifications of the existence or non existence of the Devil and yet you don't do the same for the existence of God. I believe that my Faith isn't based on my cultural background/ wanting to believe / or on less than logical reasoning, but because GOD does exist and He revealed Himself to me in a REAL and Powerful way. now, you can dismiss that experience but you can't deny it. in other words, you can say it never happened to you, but that doesn't disprove it.

 

[busmaster11]

<< Actually based on your own premises

<< The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. In accordance with my first premise, I would be obligated to agree that its wrong >>

, that what the BIBLE says is the final answer, I would have to say that your hypocritical, because NOWHERE in the BIBLE does GOD ordain SUNDAY as the day of worship. now you might say i'm nit picking, but i'm not the one claiming one should take the BIBLE at its word. >>


I'm not sure I get your point. Sunday is designated the day of rest. People worked like dogs M-Sat... I'm not saying there's anything right or wrong with what you do, but not taking the Bible for every word, at least that which is not open to debate, leaves you vulnerable to be accused of hypocrasy.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< I'm not sure I get your point. Sunday is designated the day of rest. People worked like dogs M-Sat... I'm not saying there's anything right or wrong with what you do, but not taking the Bible for every word, at least that which is not open to debate, leaves you vulnerable to be accused of hypocrasy.
>>



i don't understand the second part of this post, but, where is Sunday designated the day of rest? by whom?

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<<
I'm wondering about the natives living out deep in the jungles of Africa and South America who've never even seen a white face let alone a Bible. What kind of perfect God would be "convicting" people anyway? >>



I was wondering the same thing. I'm not trying to attack Christianity in any way, I'm just curious. Someone who lives in a part of the world that has never heard of Christianity, or someone who lived before Christ, do these people have no chance to be saved? It's not like they turned down a chance at Christianity, it's just that they never knew! I'm not a Christian, but I'm just very curious. >>



Thats a really good question. I don't claim to know the truth, but I have been asking questions like this for 16 years, and I'm reasonably satisfied with my answer. Underneath all I believe in is a faith and desire for whats fair. I've even been known to defend communism.

I don't know what God will do. I know that Christians are commissioned to spread the word as missionaries to the whole world, but they will of course fail to bring Christianity in a positive way to everyone. But I believe God is fair. I think those people will either get another chance or something after they die, but if my God is real, I definitely don't think they will just be lost in the void somewhere due to the misfortune of being born in a time and place without knowng God.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< But I believe God is fair. I think those people will either get another chance or something after they die, but if my God is real, I definitely don't think they will just be lost in the void somewhere due to the misfortune of being born in a time and place without knowng God. >>



you see, this is exactly the type of simplistic, humanistic, ego centric thinking that really sets me off.

If you really believe that GOD is ALL POWERFUL, how can you not concieve of OTHER avenues for GOD to reach out to people other than YOUR NARROW definition of CHRISTIANITY.

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< I'm not sure I get your point. Sunday is designated the day of rest. People worked like dogs M-Sat... I'm not saying there's anything right or wrong with what you do, but not taking the Bible for every word, at least that which is not open to debate, leaves you vulnerable to be accused of hypocrasy.
>>



i don't understand the second part of this post, but, where is Sunday designated the day of rest? by whom? >>



I know there are other examples, but God rested on the seventh day in Genesis.

 

[busmaster11]

<<

<< But I believe God is fair. I think those people will either get another chance or something after they die, but if my God is real, I definitely don't think they will just be lost in the void somewhere due to the misfortune of being born in a time and place without knowng God. >>



you see, this is exactly the type of simplistic, humanistic, ego centric thinking that really sets me off.

If you really believe that GOD is ALL POWERFUL, how can you not concieve of OTHER avenues for GOD to reach out to people other than YOUR NARROW definition of CHRISTIANITY. >>


Where do you see this in the Bible?

PlatinumGold - you seem to have a fine understanding of the Bible... But you also seem to put a heavy personal slant to you. You should start a cult.

You claim to not believe in missionaries. Yet I don't think you've answered the quotes pertaining to Jesus's call for people to spread the Gospel to the world... God works through us. He doesn't need any one of us, but as Christians we are called upon to be used by Him to spread the word.

Is it because of the failures of missionaries to spread the gospel historically? That instead they raped and pillaged and enslaved and killed and spread disease instead? I'll give you that - but the failures of people, inherently selfish and imperfect, doesn't change the intent of the Bible.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< So from a different perspective, what I was saying about the problem with religion is that to a non believer, the fact that there are as many different ones as there are believers makes them all sound absurd. How much truth can you really have believing pretty much what everybody around you that raised you believes. In Moslem countries people are Moslems, in Tibet they are Buddhists, in England, Anglican and so on and so forth. What sane person looking at that says to himself, man o man am I lucky. Of all the many many religions in the world, I just happened to discover and fall for the only one that's right. >>

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I could not be in more conflict with what you just said. I think it' s an interesting point from what seems to be a fairly worldly and secular view. And again the relativism shines through basically saying that, how can there be only one Truth when there are so many other beliefs in the world. And how convienient it is that the Truth is the same belief that is predominant in my country. The best answer I have at the moment ( i'm beginning to study more apologetics ) is that while certain beliefs are more dominant in certain areas, Christianity is everywhere and God will reveal Himself to people.



<< Blow all the smoke you want, the chance that you will convince a non believer that you know the truth are nil. Religious people are nothing if not programmed. >>

Error...bzz..fzzz..wrong. Syntax error on line 3...


<< But if instead, the facts were that all religions are embers of the same fire, glints from the same jewel, differing aspects of the same transidental reality then the presence of religiousness in the world, its spontaneous occurrance everywhere to all people in one form or another, the notion that we really are refering to an elephant that few see in perspective, then we might have some hope that we don't need to kill each other in this or that religious war, but begin to celebrate our common inheritance and maybe begin to try to extract the real meaning of what was originally intended. Maybe we could stop trying to burn each others bridges and cross them. >>

Hopefully I'm reading your text correctly, but I'm taking it to mean that your alluding to violence committed in the name of God. And while it's a valid point, I don't think that God can be held responsible for the evil that humans committ. God created us with free will which allows us to love, but the rub is that it also allows for the opposite, evil. It makes sense, It's like if I gave you 5 bucks and said you could only spend it on what I said you could spend it on. Is it really your money then at all? No. It's the same with free will. He gave us free will. But it's not free if He says that we can only love with it. Then we are programmed. Just robots.



<< If the Devil were truly as cleaver as Christians make him out to be, I think he would want to sneek the notion into Christianity or any other religion that it is the one and only true way. That's the way to make a hell on earth, the one we see all around us. >>

Hell is on earth to some extent. This is a fallen world. What the Devil does is not what you say, but he does create pride, greed, and self-rightousness in man that causes the evil that plagues this world.

And on that happy note. I have to work.

Cheers

 

[docmanhattan]

<<

<< We who? Actually, it does and it doesn't have answers. What are your real problems? The things that you listed aren't exactly answered by modern psychology or medicine in any definitive way either and for that matter current answers for those questiouns may be overturned in a couple years when the supposed "miracle" drug that was the answer is found to cause the growth of a third ear. Study of the Bible helps give practical application of Christian ideas to things in your everyday life. It's not going to tell you about the various learning stages of an infant though adolescence, but it'll will show you the benefit of patience and love which will go much farther IMHO and something lacking in a lot of families. I would consider it more of a guide, a road map. Something to look to for advice. but not necessarily going to give what you consider the scientific explanation to human behavior. Cheers >>



Doc, I have to say this is the first time I've even slightly disagreed with anything you've said in this thread. Through personal experience, I've found the Bible gives very specific answers to some pretty outrageous questions, some of which you would never think should be in there. The questions this guy is asking are the same ones I had at one point or another. I really wish I had more time so I could give some examples, but suffice it to say, once you get to the root of the problem, and get past all the crap you bring on yourself, (making issues bigger than they need to be,) it's really not all that difficult to find the answers God has for you. It all comes down to whether or not you're willing to accept those answers. I honestly think that's the bigger issue. Just my $.02.

(I think I'm up to about a buck-fifty by now... lol) >>

Smaulz

You're probably right. It makes sense. Once you filter out the garbage and figure out what the actual problem is, the answer becomes clearer.

 

[PlatinumGold]

actually busmaster i did respond to that.

here



<< Jesus asked the Disciples and Peter in Particular to FEED His lamb. I think our focus is to be on PHYSICAL needs of people NOT SPIRITUAL needs. Jesus exercised both aspects of Ministry, Spiritual and Physical and in my opinion He is the only one qualified to do both. The Holy Spirit was sent by JESUS to minster to Spiritual needs of people and Jesus established His Church to minister to the Physical needs of people. to be honest Most protestant churches have really slacked off in this area. You really have to give the Catholic church KUDOS for understanding this aspect of ministry.
>>



I posted that last night.

also as to the God rested on the SEVENTH DAY, on most calenders and to most peoples understanding Saturday is the 7th day not Sunday. Historically The Early church changed sabbath from Saturday to Sunday to appease the SUN worshipping heathens.

yes, i do have a fine understanding of the bible as I've completed a Masters in Theology . Tho most of what i believe contradicts most of what i was taught i still went thru the process.

 

[busmaster11]

<< Jesus asked the Disciples and Peter in Particular to FEED His lamb. I think our focus is to be on PHYSICAL needs of people NOT SPIRITUAL needs. Jesus exercised both aspects of Ministry, Spiritual and Physical and in my opinion He is the only one qualified to do both. The Holy Spirit was sent by JESUS to minster to Spiritual needs of people and Jesus established His Church to minister to the Physical needs of people. to be honest Most protestant churches have really slacked off in this area. You really have to give the Catholic church KUDOS for understanding this aspect of ministry.
>>


You know, I read that, but where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit caters to the complete spiritual needs of everyone, regardless of whether they know the word of God or not - such that the need for evangelism is eliminated? Also, half of the New testament is all about the ministry of Paul - thats quite an oversight...

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< You know, I read that, but where in the Bible does it say that the Holy Spirit caters to the complete spiritual needs of everyone, regardless of whether they know the word of God or not - such that the need for evangelism is eliminated? Also, half of the New testament is all about the ministry of Paul - thats quite an oversight...
>>



Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that one can only receive Spiritual Rebirth thru the Spirit.

Pauls ministry is indeed very interesting. What was the purpose of his ministry, was it to bring about Spiritual Rebirth? or to build societies that would minister to the Physical needs of people. The purpose of the church is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc etc.

Look at the stories of Encounters with Jesus in the New Testament, the common theme is there is something more at work than just the workings of man.

Until you accept the Premise that ALL MEN are born sinners (condition of sin, meaning that they have no ability or possibility of knowing GOD w/o HIS intervention) we will never agree.

Study Pistos, it's the greek word for the VERB faith. Pistos was used by greeks to describe a knowledge relationship between men and the Divine. Paul later on uses this word EXTENSIVELY to describe our relationship To God. Generally Pistos is an Action that God carries out in MAN to bring about Transformation. Unfortunately the english words Faith and Belief really alter the originaly intent and meaning found in the New Testament. If you want a more extensive treatise on the SIN condition PM me and i'll send you a short paragraph i recently wrote.

 

[busmaster11]

<< Jesus makes it clear in John 3 that one can only receive Spiritual Rebirth thru the Spirit. >>


There are many quotes I remember that talk about the role of the Holy Spirit, but the interpretation I've always accepted was that you have to come to God - that the Spirit will not live in you unless your heart is willing. So I don't doubt your citation, but I don't know that you can interpret it to mean that it is accomplished even in a passive manner...



<< Pauls ministry is indeed very interesting. What was the purpose of his ministry, was it to bring about Spiritual Rebirth? or to build societies that would minister to the Physical needs of people. The purpose of the church is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked etc etc. >>

He set out to various churches in the mediterrenean, some lively, some stagnant, some fill with corruption and hypocrisy - to make examples of them in the Bible.


<< Until you accept the Premise that ALL MEN are born sinners (condition of sin, meaning that they have no ability or possibility of knowing GOD w/o HIS intervention) we will never agree. >>

I do believe that all men are born sinners and have no possibility of knowing God without his intervention... I believe that intervention was Jesus showing God in the flesh, dying on the cross for our sins. That you take it one step further to mean that the Holy spirit proactively seeks out all non-believers to save them - even those who have good hearts but are pagans, thats actually a comforting thought - though it is very hard to swallow... I would be very interested in what you wrote on the matter.

Somehow I'm still not sure you've addressed the parts of the New Testament that explicitly encourages evangelizing.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< There are many quotes I remember that talk about the role of the Holy Spirit, but the interpretation I've always accepted was that you have to come to God - that the Spirit will not live in you unless your heart is willing. So I don't doubt your citation, but I don't know that you can interpret it to mean that it is accomplished even in a passive manner...
>>



read it again, no where does Jesus talk about the non born again Finding the Spirit. He specifically states that Only those that are Born of the Spirit can even perceive of Spiritual things.



<< I do believe that all men are born sinners and have no possibility of knowing God without his intervention... I believe that intervention was Jesus showing God in the flesh, dying on the cross for our sins. That you take it one step further to mean that the Holy spirit proactively seeks out all non-believers to save them - even those who have good hearts but are pagans, thats actually a comforting thought - though it is very hard to swallow... I would be very interested in what you wrote on the matter.

Somehow I'm still not sure you've addressed the parts of the New Testament that explicitly encourages evangelizing.
>>




evangelizing. euangelios to spread the good news. the point is to tell your experience but not to try and convince others. Only the Holy Spirit can convict. there is too much evidence that those trying to "evangelize" the english version ends up doing more harm than good. because they always bring with it their own cultural biases.

The real question is, in the body of the church what is our role. once you determine that then you can determine what evangelizing should mean. evangelism is about saving people physically. showing them a better way to live, not because they receive salvation because of it, but because God doesn't like to see men suffer at all. it is God and Only God that can begin the Process of Salvation. In Revelation John calls Jesus the Author and Finisher of our FAITH.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

in my opinion it is very possible for people of LOW repute to earn salvation and those of OUTSTANDING quality to fail to meet the mark

Which makes God what...an ass?

in this particular case tho you refer only to their ACTIONS and not to their CONDITION.

No, I would say it is a condition, one that transcends religion, especially the literal interpretations. It is a condition in which someone has experienced complete love, if you will, and as such it has become them, they are positive of the mind, they do good because they no longer know how to do anything else other than what love commands.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

That is interesting, something I've tossed around too, how could one really know what is of the Devil and what isn't?

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< in my opinion it is very possible for people of LOW repute to earn salvation and those of OUTSTANDING quality to fail to meet the mark

Which makes God what...an ass?
>>



to your sense of justice or by ur standards mb it does make God an Ass, but God isn't held to your standards or your sense of justice. He has his own sense of justice.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I believe that my Faith isn't based on my cultural background/ wanting to believe / or on less than logical reasoning,

I think it's important to recognize that this translates into this:

but because GOD does exist and He revealed Himself to me in a REAL and Powerful way.

Do you deny the Hindu who has had multiple dieities reveal themselves to him in a REAL and POWERFUL way?

now, you can dismiss that experience but you can't deny it. in other words, you can say it never happened to you, but that doesn't disprove it.

I can put a single bullet in a revolver, dry fire it at my head five times and maybe be lucky enough not to blow my head off. What about the guy sitting next to me, will he be that lucky? It's like the atheletes who thank God for giving them the Superbowl title or whatever. Do they thank God when the other team wins? Do you thank God when your friends mom dies of cancer, the same way you do when your mom survives it?

 

[Moonbeam]

Jeez, give me a break. Surely when we speak of lowly self repute and those of outstanding quality are how people who are asleep to a deeper reality see them, not how they really are. Who is good is completely invisible to people who aren't an can't be hidden from those who are.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

to your sense of justice or by ur standards mb it does make God an Ass, but God isn't held to your standards or your sense of justice. He has his own sense of justice.

So how dare you and your fellow Christians to try to even claim his nature as you are now? How could it ever even be transcribed into human literature?

 

[Whitedog]

EngineNr9, no Christian in their right mind would even discuss God or Christianity with someone who has no desire to know God, such as being demonstrated here.

Why these people on this board attempt to convince anti-religious folk is beyond me.



A word for all you zealous Christians; Do not waste your breath on people who have no desire to know God. Spend your efforts on those who show an interest in Him.

Jesus instructed Christians not to waste our time on such unbelievers.
Mark: 6, 11
...And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."