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Religious people are either fundamentalists or hypocrites

B

busmaster11

Platinum Member
...or atleast thats what it seems like to me.

I'm a Christian. I don't always follow what the Bible tells me - far from it. I know when I do something inappropriate though. Here's my question.

A lot of people refuse to believe in God because they observe believers doing immoral things that are just as bad or worse than what they, the supposed heathen, might do. They see believers as hypocrites, going to Church on Sunday and then smoking, drinking, taking drugs, being promiscuous, or worse, all the other times. And nobody's drawn to a God of hypocrites...

Still, other people refuse to believe in God because they can't see a compromise between its inherent restrictions and living the morally loose lifestyle they demand. They think anyone who volunteerily chose to restrict themselves from all the decadence is immeasurably assinine.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here... I just want to raise a point. See if my logic breaks down in this example. I say that I'm a Christian. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. In accordance with my first premise, I would be obligated to agree that its wrong, but stress that I hold no ill feelings against anyone, just the act, - as similiar to the act of stealing or cursing or beating someone. (The truth is, if people are nice and genuine, I'll treat them like brothers no matter their sexual prefence.)

If knowing this, I am criticized for my stance, are you not also criticizing Christianity? Some people would say they're not criticizing Christianity - they're criticizing the fundamentalist views - which is another way of saying Christians should not follow the Bible to the letter.

My point is - to some people I'm either a fundamentalist whose not in touch with society, or I'm a hypocrite.

I believe it is a self-defense mechanism for some people so they never have to give Christianity a fair chance.
 


<< A lot of people refuse to believe in God because they observe believers doing immoral things that are just as bad or worse than what they, the supposed heathen, might do. They see believers as hypocrites, going to Church on Sunday and then smoking, drinking, taking drugs, being promiscuous, or worse, all the other times. And nobody's drawn to a God of hypocrites... >>


I don't have time to read the whole thing but I'll do so later since I have a class in -8 minutes :Q...looks interesting 😉

Anyhow, I think people aren't religious or *are* religious based on convenience and how well the religion suits their needs...then they use things like that to rationalize their decision...

more to follow...
 
You do raise valid points however, I don't see how anyone who's got an ounce of logic within themselves can believe that: virgins become pregnant,
people can split huge bodies of water, raise from the dead etc etc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense!
 


<< You do raise valid points however, I don't see how anyone who's got an ounce of logic within themselves can believe that: virgins become pregnant,
people can split huge bodies of water, raise from the dead etc etc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense! >>



heh...You are correct. It's not meant to make sense logically, that's why it's called a MIRACLE (duh). Besides no one believes that a "person" split the sea, it was god who did through moses (for those who believe it.)
 
busmaster11, you've made a lot of points; I'm not sure what you're asking.
I think someone is higher profile when they shoot their mouth off about being a good Christian, then by their own example they are jerks. OTOH, you have quiet Christians who just try to do their best--we don't notice them. So the higher profile person is doing the advertising for Christianity.

About being criticised about your feelings and hand-off apporach to homosexuality, you are always going to have people advocating their version of what's right, and criticising you if you don't do what they want. Fvck them, you can't please everybody. Live your life the way that makes sense to you and stop worrying about the jerks.
 


<< A lot of people refuse to believe in God because they observe believers doing immoral things that are just as bad or worse than what they, the supposed heathen, might do. They see believers as hypocrites, going to Church on Sunday and then smoking, drinking, taking drugs, being promiscuous, or worse, all the other times. And nobody's drawn to a God of hypocrites... >>





there are many other reasons not believe in god or chirstianity in paticular, you touched on two small reasons. My morality doesnt come from any religion and thats where a lot of people get lost, i don't need some organized group to tell me what i can and cant do that being said i dont drink, do drugs, smoke, or have many other vices to speak of, but thats out of choice not fear or guilt.

 


<<

<< You do raise valid points however, I don't see how anyone who's got an ounce of logic within themselves can believe that: virgins become pregnant,
people can split huge bodies of water, raise from the dead etc etc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense! >>



heh...You are correct. It's not meant to make sense logically, that's why it's called a MIRACLE (duh). Besides no one believes that a "person" split the sea, it was god who did through moses (for those who believe it.) >>

Exactly. If it were something that anyone could do and you saw it everyday, it wouldn't be much of a miracle, now would it. 😉
 
Those miracles are no stranger than the fact that we are here w/o any explaination of how we got here, or where exactly the world is located. I mean, if you have something physical, it has to be located somewhere. Yet nobody seems concerned about this in the least.

You want a tangible example of a miracle?
 


<<

<<

<< You do raise valid points however, I don't see how anyone who's got an ounce of logic within themselves can believe that: virgins become pregnant,
people can split huge bodies of water, raise from the dead etc etc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense! >>



heh...You are correct. It's not meant to make sense logically, that's why it's called a MIRACLE (duh). Besides no one believes that a "person" split the sea, it was god who did through moses (for those who believe it.) >>

Exactly. If it were something that anyone could do and you saw it everyday, it wouldn't be much of a miracle, now would it. 😉 >>



I guess that's where I differ, miracles like that don't happen. The Hoosiers winning the national title, now that's going to be miracle. Notice I said going to! 😉
 


<<

<<

<<

<< You do raise valid points however, I don't see how anyone who's got an ounce of logic within themselves can believe that: virgins become pregnant,
people can split huge bodies of water, raise from the dead etc etc. It just doesn't make a lick of sense! >>



heh...You are correct. It's not meant to make sense logically, that's why it's called a MIRACLE (duh). Besides no one believes that a "person" split the sea, it was god who did through moses (for those who believe it.) >>

Exactly. If it were something that anyone could do and you saw it everyday, it wouldn't be much of a miracle, now would it. 😉 >>



I guess that's where I differ, miracles like that don't happen. The Hoosiers winning the national title, now that's going to be miracle. Notice I said going to! 😉 >>



You mean they don't happen because you've never seen it happen? Religious people believe that they did happen, not that they do everyday.
 


<< You mean they don't happen because you've never seen it happen? Religious people believe that they did happen, not that they do everyday. >>



Miracles like those metioned in the Bible never happened IMO because it defies everything the way stuff works. People get pregnant for a reason, not because some deity wished it upon her or however a Christian's god did it. Water does not turn into wine now does it? It doesn't today and it didn't back then.
 


<< there are many other reasons not believe in god or chirstianity in paticular, you touched on two small reasons. My morality doesnt come from any religion and thats where a lot of people get lost, i don't need some organized group to tell me what i can and cant do that being said i dont drink, do drugs, smoke, or have many other vices to speak of, but thats out of choice not fear or guilt. >>

A lot of people focus on the legalism of religion and cite that as reasons why they don't like it. The fact of the matter is that is doesn't matter if you smoke or drink. It's not about a set of rules you follow that are clearly laid out so that you can "toe the line." I always find that interesting. People, quite often, Christian and non-Christian, want to know what they can and cannot do. And these are adults too, acting like children, trying to find out what they can get away with.

If a person believes, they'll try to live a life in a way that's pleasing to God and is a good example to other people. They don't nessarily hit the mark, but what's the point, ifnot going to aim high, right? It's not about what's allowed and not allowed. I suppose that kind of perspective is fine, it's just a bit 3rd grade-ish.

🙂
 
busmaster11, you said:

<<I'm a Christian. I don't always follow what the Bible tells me - far from it. I know when I do something inappropriate though. >>

Just something to say to that. Don't rely on your own judgement on what's right and wrong. If you really are a Christian, then you would do what the bible tells you to do. If you do something the bibles tells you NOT to do, and you belive for yourself it's ok to do that, than you need to put yourself in check.
If you hear stuff like "that's how it was back then. It's not like that now" ... that's the devil saying that. He's real slippery about using that tactic.
Everything that's in the bible applied the same now as it did back then. Like God said, He's the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes.... as so His word doesn't either. You sometimes have to reapply logic, but it all means the same today as it did then.

As for this thread, you're right about the hypocrites and such. It's all too common today. People say one thing and do another... all by their own logic.
"There's nothing wrong with doing this! I'm not hurting anyone!" they say... referring to people that do stuff like drugs and alcohol... and then claim to be Christians because they go to Church.

It's the number one reason the world is against Christianity in my opinion. But, again, that's the work of the Devil. He LOVES to hear people like that "claim" to be Christians... anything to give Christianity a bad name. 🙁

Just keep the faith and press on.

You're right. You shouldn't pass judgement on someone for being a homosexual. All that's required for Christians is to point out to them what is sin and God can rid them of it. If they don't accept it, then you go on to the next sinner and witness. No need to hash on anyone. That's for God to do. He's the judge, not us.

😎
 


<< Just something to say to that. Don't rely on your own judgement on what's right and wrong. If you really are a Christian, then you would do what the bible tells you to do. If you do something the bibles tells you NOT to do, and you belive for yourself it's ok to do that, than you need to put yourself in check. If you hear stuff like "that's how it was back then. It's not like that now" ... that's the devil saying that. He's real slippery about using that tactic. Everything that's in the bible applied the same now as it did back then. Like God said, He's the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes.... as so His word doesn't either. You sometimes have to reapply logic, but it all means the same today as it did then. As for this thread, you're right about the hypocrites and such. It's all too common today. People say one thing and do another... all by their own logic. "There's nothing wrong with doing this! I'm not hurting anyone!" they say... referring to people that do stuff like drugs and alcohol... and then claim to be Christians because they go to Church. It's the number one reason the world is against Christianity in my opinion. But, again, that's the work of the Devil. He LOVES to hear people like that "claim" to be Christians... anything to give Christianity a bad name. 🙁 Just keep the faith and press on. You're right. You shouldn't pass judgement on someone for being a homosexual. All that's required for Christians is to point out to them what is sin and God can rid them of it. If they don't accept it, then you go on to the next sinner and witness. No need to hash on anyone. That's for God to do. He's the judge, not us. 😎 >>




Cheers... 🙂

My $.02 = Christians should stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and worry about their own walk with the Lord. Our duty, as a Christian, is to spread the gospel, and to live according to the Word of God. Once a person has heard the Truth, then it's up to them to decide how they're going to react to it. Whether it be a change of heart and life and an accepting of Christ, or a complete denial of said Truth. Either way, your responsiblity has been fufilled. To continue to "beat a dead horse" as it were, is to do more harm than good. Not only are you gonna torque off the person you're beating up and drive them further from God, you're also going to torque off God for going against His Will. The End. 🙂 *retiring the soapbox*


[edit]
Sorry, one more thing. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that once you've accepted Christ, you instantly become a perfect person. Christians are no different than anyone else in the world, we've just chosen to accept the forgiveness that Christ offers freely. That's it.

They see believers as hypocrites, going to Church on Sunday and then smoking, drinking, taking drugs, being promiscuous, or worse, all the other times.
Click to expand...
That's a completely ridiculous point of view. (Not yours, I know, but it's pretty common) My opinion is that, well... you don't see healthy people hanging out in hospitals do ya? Well, perfect people don't hang out in church. Why would they?
Click to expand...
 


<<

<< You mean they don't happen because you've never seen it happen? Religious people believe that they did happen, not that they do everyday. >>



Miracles like those metioned in the Bible never happened IMO because it defies everything the way stuff works. People get pregnant for a reason, not because some deity wished it upon her or however a Christian's god did it. Water does not turn into wine now does it? It doesn't today and it didn't back then. >>



Miracles by definition defy the way stuff works. And religious people believe that God created nature, nature runs according to his will. If his will is for something to go against nature (a miracle), then nature gotta back away for a few moments, because nature only is a creation of God. I don't know about the miracles you mention above, because I am not Christian, but the miracle of the splitting sea was witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people. How dumb would it sound, if in the next generation there was a claim the the sea split and no one heard anything about it?
 


<< If you hear stuff like "that's how it was back then. It's not like that now" ... that's the devil saying that. >>

Whitedog, I think you should be MUCH more specific with a statement like that. For instance, someone might say that it is wrong to eat pork, and someone else might say "that was back then... it's not like that now.." and they would be correct because we are no longer under the Law, but under Grace. If, on the other hand, someone takes a command from the New Testement and says that it doesn't count anymore, then your statement would hold.



<< All that's required for Christians is to point out to them what is sin and God can rid them of it. >>

Ummm... no. All that's required is to tell them of the love and free gift of Christ. Christians should NOT point out the sins of unbelievers because they are under no compunction to live within the constraints of Christianity. I don't believe that I ever see Jesus or the Apostles telling people about their sins first, but about their need for salvation... and then only talking about sin to the people who act self-righteous:

1CO 5
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Our only job is to deliver the Good News. It's the job of the Holy Spirit enlighten a person to truth. I'm not trying to nit-pic and I'll be happy to debate with someone all day about what is TRULY moral and what isn't, but discussing that and telling someone who doesn't believe that they have to adhere to the teachings of Christ, whether they believe or not are two different things. OTOH, I regularly vote on issues based on my religious beliefs, but that is a societal issue, not a one on one sort of thing.




<< NART NART NART >>

And now we have the entire body of knowledge possessed by Shaftatplanetquake.

 


<< Miracles by definition defy the way stuff works. >>

I think I'd have to modify that a tiny bit to say that they defy the way stuff works in a fallen world. We see Yogi's doing all sorts of stuff with their own bodies... being cut and not bleeding.... being held underwater for a half hour at a time and controlling O2 consumption and heat rate... things that don't go by the usual way things work. But what if our limitation is the result of the fallen state of things. What if Jesus walking on water was normal and the fact that we can't is what is abnormal?

Joe
 


<<

<< Miracles by definition defy the way stuff works. >>

I think I'd have to modify that a tiny bit to say that they defy the way stuff works in a fallen world. We see Yogi's doing all sorts of stuff with their own bodies... being cut and not bleeding.... being held underwater for a half hour at a time and controlling O2 consumption and heat rate... things that don't go by the usual way things work. But what if our limitation is the result of the fallen state of things. What if Jesus walking on water was normal and the fact that we can't is what is abnormal?

Joe >>



Ummm...I'm not exactly sure what you mean. There are folks who are able to twist nature in certain ways so that it looks like they do abnormal things, and there are those that CAN do abnormal things. But that's not a miracle. If someone is double jointed and can move in ways that other people can't, that's not a miracle either. The people who can do abnormal things aren't supernatural, and they don't have supernatural powers. They might have some gifts that the average joe (excuse the horrible pun) doesn't have, but that doesn't make it into a miracle. About Jesus walking on the water, I have no comment being that I'm not a Christian.
 
Fundamentalists ARE the hypocrites, in any religion. They judge and try to abolish everything they see as sinful, in themselves and everybody else. They feel everyone needs to be like them to be a 'good' Christian. Well there's no such thing as a 'good' Christian. You are either a Christian or not, on top of whether or not you are a good or bad person.

People need to realize that there a lot folks in this world that are wannabe Christians. They are insecure about their faith and have to judge the actions of others to make themselves feel better. Well actions aren't what makes you a Christian. They part of it, yes, but if you don't have the faith, you aren't saved. Period.

And one more thing, where are all these people getting that drinking and smoking are sinful? I don't recall smoking ever being mentioned in the Bible. And as far as drinking, if that were sinful, wouldn't Jesus have turned water into tea or something instead of wine?
 


<< The people who can do abnormal things aren't supernatural, and they don't have supernatural powers. >>

I don't think I explained myself well. The word you used, "supernatural" denotes something which is above what is "normal" in nature. The point I was trying to make is that perhaps, before the fall of man, things were different and that we now live in a "subnatural" world where what should be thought of as normal is thought of as supernatural because we don't know how it was in the beginning.

I probably shouldn't have even posted that... it's more a thought for Christians and probably sounds strange otherwise.

Joe
 


<< And one more thing, where are all these people getting that drinking and smoking are sinful? >>

They are not in and of themselves sinful. The sin comes with excess and self-degradation. I have no doubt that Jesus made wine from water. I also believe that there were people who probably got so drunk off of the Jesus wine that they may have puked. As Athanasius likes to say

Abusus non tollit usum." The abuse does not abolish the proper use."

Jesus' making of alcoholic beverage was not wrong... the abuse of it would have been. Drinking isn't wrong, but getting drunk or becoming an addict to it is. Cigarettes, Cigars, Pipes aren't wrong... becoming addicted to them so that you now MUST serve the addiction against your free will is wrong. It's the moderation thing.

Joe
 
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