Religious people are either fundamentalists or hypocrites

[PlatinumGold]

Actually based on your own premises

<< The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. In accordance with my first premise, I would be obligated to agree that its wrong >>

, that what the BIBLE says is the final answer, I would have to say that your hypocritical, because NOWHERE in the BIBLE does GOD ordain SUNDAY as the day of worship. now you might say i'm nit picking, but i'm not the one claiming one should take the BIBLE at its word.

Everyone defines the terms to their own personal liking, you may consider yourself fundamentalist, someone else may consider you liberal and you would in turn label those people Fanatical.

labels mean nothing. truth is all that matters.

as to your response, most christians overestimate their own self worth. they really think other people care at all what they do. other people do but mostly other hypocritical christians. most non christians don't give a hoot at all what christians do, except when christians impose on their lives.

As a Christian myself, i'm convinced that nothing I DO can convict another PERSON one way or the other. It's only the work of GOD that convicts. therefore once again. LABELS MEAN NOTHING, TRUTH IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

 

[Netopia]

<< I would have to say that your hypocritical, because NOWHERE in the BIBLE does GOD ordain SUNDAY as the day of worship. now you might say i'm nit picking, but i'm not the one claiming one should take the BIBLE at its word. >>



You are of course correct that Sunday is just another day, like any other.... but where did
busmaster11 say that he believes that Sunday is some modern day Sabboth? If he didn't, you're kind of putting words in his mouth... not to mention calling him a hypocrite without any proof!




<< LABELS MEAN NOTHING, TRUTH IS ALL THAT MATTERS. >>

What about when the labels are the truth... like the sign that said "King Of The Jews"?

Joe

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< They see believers as hypocrites, going to Church on Sunday >>



your right of course he never said that, but he did mention church on sunday with day of worship being implied.



<< They are not in and of themselves sinful. The sin comes with excess and self-degradation. I have no doubt that Jesus made wine from water. I also believe that there were people who probably got so drunk off of the Jesus wine that they may have puked. As Athanasius likes to say
>>



your definition of sin, however, is one i disagree with. sin is a CONDITION not ACTIONS. there are no SINFUL actions and NONSINFUL actions.

the whole theology of sin however is much more than i want to get into here.

 

[Netopia]

<< the whole theology of sin however is much more than i want to get into here. >>

Cool. Love to discuss it with you sometime when the time is better for you.

Joe

 

[IGBT]

All religion is a psychosis. Their in need of treatment for their disorder. Look on them with pity and encourage them to get the help they need.

 

[Moonbeam]

Religion presents a number of problems in my opinion. Since it is a product of a state of consciousness that is, in the minds of those who experience it, superior to ordinary consciousness, otherwise known as sleep, it (religion) is important because it is practically the only source from which most people will ever come in contact with ideas that come from that realm. Such ideas, because the correspond to a real but unknown reality that is a part of the human psyche, affect people in just the way described by the Holy Spirit.

On the other hand, since all religious truths are the product of a particular time and place in the world, they are in effect contrapunctal to the form of unconsciousness that blinds people at that place and time. To the extent that there may be some communality of blindness across time and space, there are always elements of a religion with universal appeal and applicability. But circumstances alter the nature and form of ideals that are relevant and need focus. For that reason each succession of revelation brought by the latest Avatar will be different. Religions loose their dynimism and applicability over time and must be refreshed from the source.

One of the greatest problem with religion then, in my opinion, is fixation on absolutes that belong to another time. Another is that without the presence of a living teacher who has himself walked the path and can see exactly how you are blind, it is practically impossible to self diagnose the nature of ones own blindness.

To sum up, religion is a bridge to another reality, a state of consciousness that self confers the sense of its genuine good quality. Almost everybody has fallen ln love with the bridge and there are few who cross. Without the bridge there are few who cross.

 

[Smaulz]

<< Actually based on your own premises

<< The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. In accordance with my first premise, I would be obligated to agree that its wrong >>

, that what the BIBLE says is the final answer, I would have to say that your hypocritical, because NOWHERE in the BIBLE does GOD ordain SUNDAY as the day of worship. now you might say i'm nit picking, but i'm not the one claiming one should take the BIBLE at its word. Everyone defines the terms to their own personal liking, you may consider yourself fundamentalist, someone else may consider you liberal and you would in turn label those people Fanatical. labels mean nothing. truth is all that matters. as to your response, most christians overestimate their own self worth. they really think other people care at all what they do. other people do but mostly other hypocritical christians. most non christians don't give a hoot at all what christians do, except when christians impose on their lives. As a Christian myself, i'm convinced that nothing I DO can convict another PERSON one way or the other. It's only the work of GOD that convicts. therefore once again. LABELS MEAN NOTHING, TRUTH IS ALL THAT MATTERS. >>





[agony]must... not....... get ... sucked into... the...... flamefest.......... [/agony] :disgust::|

 

[docmanhattan]

<< Religion presents a number of problems in my opinion. Since it is a product of a state of consciousness that is, in the minds of those who experience it, superior to ordinary consciousness, otherwise known as sleep, it (religion) is important because it is practically the only source from which most people will ever come in contact with ideas that come from that realm. Such ideas, because the correspond to a real but unknown reality that is a part of the human psyche, affect people in just the way described by the Holy Spirit. >>

Wrong. The Christian experience is not the product of a state of consciousness akin to sleep. It sounds very intelligent and palatable for non-Christians because then it is then more easily dismissed, but it is very far from the Truth.



<< On the other hand, since all religious truths are the product of a particular time and place in the world, they are in effect contrapunctal to the form of unconsciousness that blinds people at that place and time. To the extent that there may be some communality of blindness across time and space, there are always elements of a religion with universal appeal and applicability. But circumstances alter the nature and form of ideals that are relevant and need focus. For that reason each succession of revelation brought by the latest Avatar will be different. Religions loose their dynimism and applicability over time and must be refreshed from the source.
One of the greatest problem with religion then, in my opinion, is fixation on absolutes that belong to another time. Another is that without the presence of a living teacher who has himself walked the path and can see exactly how you are blind, it is practically impossible to self diagnose the nature of ones own blindness. >>

More thoughtful explanations that try to filter the Bible through a relativistic view point. The apologetic analysis you give, Moonbeam, is one that Christians don't need. There's no "blindness" and unless the Bible has been completely re-written, I think Chrisitans already have the tool they need to "diagnose" themselves, as you like to put it



<< To sum up, religion is a bridge to another reality, a state of consciousness that self confers the sense of its genuine good quality. Almost everybody has fallen ln love with the bridge and there are few who cross. Without the bridge there are few who cross. >>

Without being repetitive. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Using your analogy. The Blood of Jesus Christ is the bridge and God is behind and in front of you with Christ Jesus on the other side of the bridge on His throne waiting for you to take your seat at his right side.

Cheers

 

[Whitedog]

Netophia, didn't I teach you a Long time ago not to pick at my posts?? hehe

<<I think you should be MUCH more specific with a statement like that>>

No. I was specific as I needed to be. If YOU want to be specific in your posts, that's fine with me. Just don't go telling me what I need to put in my posts...

<<Ummm... no. All that's required is to tell them of the love and free gift of Christ.>>
<<Our only job is to deliver the Good News. It's the job of the Holy Spirit enlighten a person to truth.>>

Again... You're confusing yourself with my words. Yes, it's up to us to spread the gospil. But not just the good news... ALL OF THE NEWS, which includes what's BAD. I think Paul spent as much effort in telling people what they were doing worng as he did about salvation and such.

It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict people of their wrong doings... but it's up to us to "show" them what the bible calls Sin. How can the Holy Spirit convict people of their sins if they are not first told what the bible says?

I really wish you would just Ignor my posts. Just because I don't word things the same way you would does NOT give you the right to say, "No, that's wrong..."

 

[docmanhattan]

<< Again... You're confusing yourself with my words. Yes, it's up to us to spread the gospil. But not just the good news... ALL OF THE NEWS, which includes what's BAD. I think Paul spent as much effort in telling people what they were doing worng as he did about salvation and such. >>

Your right. But you can't point out someone's faults by shaking your finger at them. Paul could maybe do so because he was, at one time, worse than anyone. You know, Saul the Christian Killer, for pete's sake! But as Christian's, we have to do so with compassion and humility considering that the only difference is that we're justified through Grace. We make errors as much as anyone else, we just have a willing heart.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

<< To sum up, religion is a bridge to another reality, a state of consciousness that self confers the sense of its genuine good quality. Almost everybody has fallen ln love with the bridge and there are few who cross. Without the bridge there are few who cross. >>

Without being repetitive. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Using your analogy. The Blood of Jesus Christ is the bridge, God is behind and in front of you, and Christ Jesus on the other side ofthe bridge on His throne waiting for you to take you seat at his right side.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict people of their wrong doings... but it's up to us to "show" them what the bible calls Sin. How can the Holy Spirit convict people of their sins if they are not first told what the bible says?

I'm wondering about the natives living out deep in the jungles of Africa and South America who've never even seen a white face let alone a Bible. What kind of perfect God would be "convicting" people anyway? We're born into particular circumstances and those circumstances shape us...no one chooses the way they want to be in a vaccum. Most "evil-doers" are people who've been psychologically traumatized from the getgo. I'm also still wondering about the non-Christian monks who live to spread peace and understanding, lead humble lives and devote themselves to helping others. Why they are going to get bent over a barrel when it's their turn, but a bunch of spoiled material worshipping hedonistic westerners are going to go to this wonderful magical blissful place simply because they "accept Christ". Would you have me believe that God is really that petty?

 

[Pundit]

This post may get lost in this thread, but I want to say a few things about religion.

For someone that doesn't acknowledge the existance of God, I'm finding myself defending monotheistic religions more and more lately. The bottom line is this: the Bible has some good messages and ideas, but it does not have answers to all of life's problems. It tells us to be good. It does not tell us how to accomplish that goal.

Many people try and criticize religions by pointing out the faults in some of their followers. You cannot judge a religion by who follows it, but by its dogma. I learned long ago that Catholicism is not the pedopheliac priests, but rather its message of good will towards others. Do not fall into the trap that so many others have. And if you're questions aren't being answered by a certain religion, keep looking. I assure you the answers can be found.

 

[Orsorum]

<< That's a completely ridiculous point of view. (Not yours, I know, but it's pretty common) My opinion is that, well... you don't see healthy people hanging out in hospitals do ya? Well, perfect people don't hang out in church. Why would they? >>



Good point.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Religious people are either fundamentalists or hypocrites

Who isn't? People just want security, unfortunatly they'll do a lot of subversively destructive things to get it, sealing off other perhaps greater opportunities, burning bridges, because they lack the same kind of blind certaintity that an absolutist religion will offer.

 

[Whitedog]

Good Lord, I can't believe I'm replying to this thread agian.

Docman, what are you saying Christians are justified at? Sinning? Because we have Gods grace? Are we supposed to have the attitude of "I know I will sin, and I know God will forgive me"? Please answer that. That's what it sounded like you were saying.

Pundit: <<the Bible has some good messages and ideas, but it does not have answers to all of life's problems. It tells us to be good. It does not tell us how to accomplish that goal. >>

It does indeed. Attend Bible study on a regular basis before casting such ignorant judgements.

 

[ThePresence]

<<
I'm wondering about the natives living out deep in the jungles of Africa and South America who've never even seen a white face let alone a Bible. What kind of perfect God would be "convicting" people anyway? >>



I was wondering the same thing. I'm not trying to attack Christianity in any way, I'm just curious. Someone who lives in a part of the world that has never heard of Christianity, or someone who lived before Christ, do these people have no chance to be saved? It's not like they turned down a chance at Christianity, it's just that they never knew! I'm not a Christian, but I'm just very curious.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< It's up to the Holy Spirit to convict people of their wrong doings... but it's up to us to "show" them what the bible calls Sin. How can the Holy Spirit convict people of their sins if they are not first told what the bible says?
>>



in my opinion this is the basis for most of the fallacies of modern christianity or evangelicalism. the HOLY SPIRIT convicts. In John 3 Jesus clearly says, only those born of the Spirit can understand spiritual things. it doesn't say, someone has to point them out to them. Jesus again says the Spirit is like the wind no one knows where it comes from or where it goes.

Salvation is THRU Jesus, but not the Name of Jesus. The sacrifice of Jesus made a non sinful CONDITION possible for all men. They don't have to actually KNOW THE SPECIFIC ENGLISH SPELLING or any other variation or translation of the words to be saved. Just that the HOLY SPIRIT MUST CONVICT.

the Evangelical church takes WAY too much upon itself. It's biggest problems is it's arrogance. WE WERE NEVER PART OF BRINGING SALVATION TO OTHERS, our only goal is to stay w/in GOD'S GRACE. GOD will BRING SALVATION TO ALL in HIS time.

 

[Moonbeam]

docman, I must be crazy. I thought that when I made the statement, "Religion presents a number of problems in my opinion. Since it is a product of a state of consciousness that is, in the minds of those who experience it, superior to ordinary consciousness, otherwise known as sleep, it (religion) is important because it is practically the only source from which most people will ever come in contact with ideas that come from that realm. ", I was sure that it was obvious that I wasn't saying that religious consciousness is considered by the religiously conscious as superior to ordinary consciousness, with ordinary consciousness being the one equalling sleep which is completely different than saying that Christian consciousness is akin to sleep. Either I don't know how to write, or you don't know how to read.

Also when you say that Christians don't need what I was saying, you seem to assume that it was addressed to Christians. I would assume there are others interested in the issue.

Naturally, while I look relavistic to you, to me you look like somebody who has fallen in love with the bridge.

 

[djs1w]

Religion is a pharce. Are the Greek gods held on pedistals today as they once were?! Of course not, other religions will fade out as the human race makes itself
less ignorant of how we got here.

 

[Moonbeam]

"only those born of the Spirit can understand spiritual things."

That sounds like a state of consciousness to me.

"The Spirit is like the wind no one knows where it comes from or where it goes."

I take that "no one" to include me.

 

[ibintegra]

<< the Evangelical church takes WAY too much upon itself. It's biggest problems is it's arrogance. WE WERE NEVER PART OF BRINGING SALVATION TO OTHERS, our only goal is to stay w/in GOD'S GRACE. GOD will BRING SALVATION TO ALL in HIS time. >>



It is true that God will bring salvation to others, but I think it's our role to spread that message. It isn't always about converting every individual you see, it's about playing that role for somebody to be saved. There's a wide swath of civilization that doesn't know anything about Jesus Christ that just needs to know who he is. That's our role. The rest is like what you say, up to God.

 

[PlatinumGold]

In John 3 Jesus clearly says, only those born of the Spirit can understand spiritual things. it doesn't say, someone has to point them out to them. Jesus again says the Spirit is like the wind no one knows where it comes from or where it goes.



<< There's a wide swath of civilization that doesn't know anything about Jesus Christ that just needs to know who he is. That's our role. The rest is like what you say, up to God. >>



they don't know Jesus, and they never have to the way you define "know".

once again. this is part of the ARROGANCE of the evangelical church. they believe that for some reason, the ALL POWERFULL God Needs them in order to get the message to those LESS FORTUNATE then themselves. i'm obviously not a fan of the Missionary movement.

Personally it seems to me that so called missionaries have done a lot more harm to the civilizations they've entered to "help" then they have good.

 

[Pundit]

<< Good Lord, I can't believe I'm replying to this thread agian.

Docman, what are you saying Christians are justified at? Sinning? Because we have Gods grace? Are we supposed to have the attitude of "I know I will sin, and I know God will forgive me"? Please answer that. That's what it sounded like you were saying.

Pundit: <<the Bible has some good messages and ideas, but it does not have answers to all of life's problems. It tells us to be good. It does not tell us how to accomplish that goal. >>

It does indeed. Attend Bible study on a regular basis before casting such ignorant judgements. >>


I've read the bible. It doesn't explain human behaviour.

 

[Smaulz]

PlatinumGold, unfortunately, your statements are incorrect. The Bible states very clearly in quite a few different places, that it is, in fact, Christians' duty to spread the Gospel. As far as the "jungle folk" who have never heard the gospel, that's why the New Testement states somewhere, (if I weren't on the way to bed, I'd look up specifics for you... perhaps someone else feels motivated... ?) that Christ will not return until every ear has heard the Truth. (One of many "conditions" for his return) And considering the advancements in the past 25-50 years regarding the spread of information, I'd be willing to bet that time isn't far off. IMHO, I seriously doubt there exists more than a few people that have remained outside "civilized" contact of some sort or another. Just my opinion... well, some of it, anyways... Cheers.