Religious people are either fundamentalists or hypocrites

[Smaulz]

<< I've read the bible. It doesn't explain human behaviour. >>



Actually, it does, to quite an extent. Perhaps a bit more study is in order?

 

[docmanhattan]

<< docman, I must be crazy. I thought that when I made the statement, "Religion presents a number of problems in my opinion. Since it is a product of a state of consciousness that is, in the minds of those who experience it, superior to ordinary consciousness, otherwise known as sleep, it (religion) is important because it is practically the only source from which most people will ever come in contact with ideas that come from that realm. ", I was sure that it was obvious that I wasn't saying that religious consciousness is considered by the religiously conscious as superior to ordinary consciousness, with ordinary consciousness being the one equalling sleep which is completely different than saying that Christian consciousness is akin to sleep. Either I don't know how to write, or you don't know how to read. >>

I would venture to say it's a bit of both. Your point was not very clear and my interpretation of what you wrote could've been better.



<< Also when you say that Christians don't need what I was saying, you seem to assume that it was addressed to Christians. I would assume there are others interested in the issue. >>

If I narrowed the audience that you were addressing, my apologies. However, I will stand by what I said for Christianity. That being that the Bible does not need to be re-written or updated to suit society's decline. It's not about be slighty better than the current state of the world. It's about choosing the path of Christ and focusing on Heaven. That's not to say that any one Christian is better than anyone else or is looking down on people and shaking your fingering saying, "Sinner!" and reciting Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. It's not like that. You just aim high and do your best. If you falter in a moment of weakness, it's okay because you're already forgiven, but you will be judged by your actions. I mean, I know God loves me and I'm forgiven, but I'm still accountable for what I do. It matters. It's for real. It's not like I can galavant around doing whatever I like. But it's also not legalistic like some people perceive. I can drink, I just don't go out slamming them back at a strip club. It's about freedom from addiction. The biggest example of that is pornography. It's easy to access and a weakness for men. Somehow, though, I doubt that most people here will admit to thinking pr0n is bad. Okay, before I get way off track, I'll just move on....



<< Naturally, while I look relavistic to you, to me you look like somebody who has fallen in love with the bridge. >>

Of course I've fallen in love with the bridge. I wouldn't be a very good Christian otherwise.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< In John 3 Jesus clearly says, only those born of the Spirit can understand spiritual things. it doesn't say, someone has to point them out to them. Jesus again says the Spirit is like the wind no one knows where it comes from or where it goes.



<< There's a wide swath of civilization that doesn't know anything about Jesus Christ that just needs to know who he is. That's our role. The rest is like what you say, up to God. >>



they don't know Jesus, and they never have to the way you define "know".

once again. this is part of the ARROGANCE of the evangelical church. they believe that for some reason, the ALL POWERFULL God Needs them in order to get the message to those LESS FORTUNATE then themselves. i'm obviously not a fan of the Missionary movement.

Personally it seems to me that so called missionaries have done a lot more harm to the civilizations they've entered to "help" then they have good. >>

There is a midway point between being a missionary and living your life in a way that will attract others to it. You don't have to knock on doors and travel to obscure countries to be a witness. Just live your life a example of what you think a Christian is. It's between you and God, not you and them. That's it. God'll use you how He wants to use you, you don't have to go to them. But if the Spirit moves someone to be more proactive, there's nothing that says they shouldn't.

 

[Smaulz]

<< There is a midway point between being a missionary and living your life in a way that will attract others to it. You don't have to knock on doors and travel to obscure countries to be a witness. Just live your life a example of what you think a Christian is. It's between you and God, not you and them. That's it. God'll use you how He wants to use you, you don't have to go to them. But if the Spirit moves someone to be more proactive, there's nothing that says they shouldn't. >>



Cheers

 

[docmanhattan]

Whitedog


<< Good Lord, I can't believe I'm replying to this thread agian.

Docman, what are you saying Christians are justified at? Sinning? Because we have Gods grace? Are we supposed to have the attitude of "I know I will sin, and I know God will forgive me"? Please answer that. That's what it sounded like you were saying.
>>

That's exactly what I'm saying.

So let me ask you this: since you are a Chirstian, you never sin anymore? ...Ever? ...You're telling me that you never, ever sin?

I hate to break it to you. We're all broken people. We all sin. And I'm not talking about the dire things like adultry and murder. I'm talking about everything. The stuff that happens everyday. The practical stuff. Taking the Lord's name in vain. Pr0n. Stealing. Swearing. Unkindness. Laziness. All of it. Jesus was the only on that was free of sin. We're going to sin. It's going to happen. Deal with it. But the bonus is that we're already forgiven because of Jesus. And the reason it's a bonus is because we know, as Christians that God loves and will continue to love us in light of our sin. And, of course, the next post will be the antagonist saying, "So if a Christian kills a person, they're forgiven." That's not what I'm talking. That obviously falls into the catagory of things that are considered deadly sins.

Do you see where I'm going with this, Whitedog? It's not about having some sort of attitude. It's a freedom from the guilt that keeps Christians from knowing that God loves them. Satan's done a good job of that. He's convinced people that their salvation is dependent on good works which is quite the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that comes from accepting Christ. You don't get it from 1000 hours of volunteer service and you don't lose it because you had a weak moment and blew up at a co-worker or missed church on sunday.

Cheers.

 

[Moonbeam]

"and you don't lose it because you had a weak moment and blew up at a co-worker" Geez, I hope that doesn't get out to the National Association of Letter Carriers. All hell could break loose.

 

[docmanhattan]

<< "and you don't lose it because you had a weak moment and blew up at a co-worker" Geez, I hope that doesn't get out to the National Association of Letter Carriers. All hell could break loose. >>

I suppose if you had to put tha under a better title consider, "Lack of patience", maybe? Patience is a virtue, literally, and we're (Chrisitians) called to show these. Obviously some better than other.

That's one that I need to work on.

 

[Pundit]

<<

<< I've read the bible. It doesn't explain human behaviour. >>



Actually, it does, to quite an extent. Perhaps a bit more study is in order? >>


Ok then, please explain to me what causes irrationality in one's mind. Please explain to me Man's goal and why he tires to attain it. Please explain to me what motivates Man to continue to survive. Explain to me how to solve conflicts, drug dependancy, low self-esteem, unethical practices, and physical injuries. Explain to me how to solve the problems of everyday life. Tell me what happens before birth and after death and what proof you have of this.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not have the answers to these questions. We are on this planet and we have real problems. To solve these problems, we need real solutions and not just, "believe in Jesus and your problems will dissapear." The Bible is vague, and innacurate, and biased. Stop telling us that this is all we need. WE NEED MORE.

 

[docmanhattan]

<<

<<

<< I've read the bible. It doesn't explain human behaviour. >>



Actually, it does, to quite an extent. Perhaps a bit more study is in order? >>


Ok then, please explain to me what causes irrationality in one's mind. Please explain to me Man's goal and why he tires to attain it. Please explain to me what motivates Man to continue to survive. Explain to me how to solve conflicts, drug dependancy, low self-esteem, unethical practices, and physical injuries. Explain to me how to solve the problems of everyday life. Tell me what happens before birth and after death and what proof you have of this.

Unfortunately, the Bible does not have the answers to these questions. We are on this planet and we have real problems. To solve these problems, we need real solutions and not just, "believe in Jesus and your problems will dissapear." The Bible is vague, and innacurate, and biased. Stop telling us that this is all we need. WE NEED MORE. >>

We who?

Actually, it does and it doesn't have answers. What are your real problems? The things that you listed aren't exactly answered by modern psychology or medicine in any definitive way either and for that matter current answers for those questiouns may be overturned in a couple years when the supposed "miracle" drug that was the answer is found to cause the growth of a third ear.

Study of the Bible helps give practical application of Christian ideas to things in your everyday life. It's not going to tell you about the various learning stages of an infant though adolescence, but it'll will show you the benefit of patience and love which will go much farther IMHO and something lacking in a lot of families. I would consider it more of a guide, a road map. Something to look to for advice. but not necessarily going to give what you consider the scientific explanation to human behavior.

Cheers

 

[Moonbeam]

"Ok then, please explain to me what causes irrationality in one's mind. Please explain to me Man's goal and why he tires to attain it. Please explain to me what motivates Man to continue to survive. Explain to me how to solve conflicts, drug dependancy, low self-esteem, unethical practices, and physical injuries. Explain to me how to solve the problems of everyday life. Tell me what happens before birth and after death and what proof you have of this."

Just because you ask a question doesn't necessarily mean, does it, that you have the capacity to make any use of the answer.

Consider the possibility, that certain types of experience are requisite. The answer to the question, for example, how do you keep from falling off a horse, is to know how to ride. Knowing the answer and knowing how to ride are, however, two completely different things.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< that Christ will not return until every ear has heard the Truth >>



again, this is another example of the misconceptions of evangelicals.

What makes you think that God is limited only to your way of presenting the "truth"? do you think "Truth" exists only in the set of words that were presented to you?

again. the example of falling of love with the bridge was presented earlier in this thread. it is also described as a finger pointing to the truth. don't fall in love with the finger, the bottom line is the TRUTH and the TRUTH is that GOD EXISTS, A PROACTIVE GOD EXISTS. the only thing He expects any of us to concern ourselves w/ is OUR relationship with HIM.

 

[travler]

I think you are right.

In the history of man the only man who wasn't a 'fundamentalist' (which i assume would be a hypocrite) or a hypocrite. was called Christ.

You dont have to look at religious people to find hypocrits and bigots. Each and everyone one of us is a hypocrite at some point or another. or on one iissue or another.

I think that is the the whole reason Jesus was sent to us.

you can blame religion if ya want. Its people who are faulty


_______
Computers dont make mistakes. People make mistakes.

Travler

 

[Smaulz]

<<

<< that Christ will not return until every ear has heard the Truth >>

again, this is another example of the misconceptions of evangelicals. What makes you think that God is limited only to your way of presenting the "truth"? do you think "Truth" exists only in the set of words that were presented to you? again. the example of falling of love with the bridge was presented earlier in this thread. it is also described as a finger pointing to the truth. don't fall in love with the finger, the bottom line is the TRUTH and the TRUTH is that GOD EXISTS, A PROACTIVE GOD EXISTS. the only thing He expects any of us to concern ourselves w/ is OUR relationship with HIM. >>



Oh good grief, where do I start.... ( I should've been in bed an hour ago... this is gonna hurt in the morning...)
First of all, I am in no way limiting God. My version of the Truth is the one GOD gave us through His Word. It's really quite simple and not really open to interpretation. You're making it more difficult than it has to be.
the only thing He expects any of us to concern ourselves w/ is OUR relationship with HIM
Then why did He tell us it was our duty to spread the Gospel to the world? I really don't think He'd say it if He didn't mean it...

 

[travler]

<< Whitedog


<< Good Lord, I can't believe I'm replying to this thread agian.

Docman, what are you saying Christians are justified at? Sinning? Because we have Gods grace? Are we supposed to have the attitude of "I know I will sin, and I know God will forgive me"? Please answer that. That's what it sounded like you were saying.
>>

That's exactly what I'm saying.

So let me ask you this: since you are a Chirstian, you never sin anymore? ...Ever? ...You're telling me that you never, ever sin?

I hate to break it to you. We're all broken people. We all sin. And I'm not talking about the dire things like adultry and murder. I'm talking about everything. The stuff that happens everyday. The practical stuff. Taking the Lord's name in vain. Pr0n. Stealing. Swearing. Unkindness. Laziness. All of it. Jesus was the only on that was free of sin. We're going to sin. It's going to happen. Deal with it. But the bonus is that we're already forgiven because of Jesus. And the reason it's a bonus is because we know, as Christians that God loves and will continue to love us in light of our sin. And, of course, the next post will be the antagonist saying, "So if a Christian kills a person, they're forgiven." That's not what I'm talking. That obviously falls into the catagory of things that are considered deadly sins.

Do you see where I'm going with this, Whitedog? It's not about having some sort of attitude. It's a freedom from the guilt that keeps Christians from knowing that God loves them. Satan's done a good job of that. He's convinced people that their salvation is dependent on good works which is quite the contrary. Salvation is a free gift that comes from accepting Christ. You don't get it from 1000 hours of volunteer service and you don't lose it because you had a weak moment and blew up at a co-worker or missed church on sunday.

Cheers. >>



I think you have it wrong. We are held acountable for our actions. Jesus didnt give us a free pass to sin. Its a dificult concept and its often abused. It doesnt even have to be a deadly sin. It just has to be a disregard for God. At least this is my view and many other theologians, and philosophers. The bible isnt an instruction manual. It is infaliable, and it is true, but it isnt an instruction manual. I think a previous poster got it right when he said many so called christians seek to twist its meaning to what suits them. And that goes for both sides the fence.


Ill never forget a quote one of my pastors said. I would add that he was quoting someone else.. "Christianity has managed to survive 2000 years of christians... there must be something to it."

 

[Smaulz]

<< We who? Actually, it does and it doesn't have answers. What are your real problems? The things that you listed aren't exactly answered by modern psychology or medicine in any definitive way either and for that matter current answers for those questiouns may be overturned in a couple years when the supposed "miracle" drug that was the answer is found to cause the growth of a third ear. Study of the Bible helps give practical application of Christian ideas to things in your everyday life. It's not going to tell you about the various learning stages of an infant though adolescence, but it'll will show you the benefit of patience and love which will go much farther IMHO and something lacking in a lot of families. I would consider it more of a guide, a road map. Something to look to for advice. but not necessarily going to give what you consider the scientific explanation to human behavior. Cheers >>



Doc, I have to say this is the first time I've even slightly disagreed with anything you've said in this thread. Through personal experience, I've found the Bible gives very specific answers to some pretty outrageous questions, some of which you would never think should be in there. The questions this guy is asking are the same ones I had at one point or another. I really wish I had more time so I could give some examples, but suffice it to say, once you get to the root of the problem, and get past all the crap you bring on yourself, (making issues bigger than they need to be,) it's really not all that difficult to find the answers God has for you. It all comes down to whether or not you're willing to accept those answers. I honestly think that's the bigger issue. Just my $.02.

(I think I'm up to about a buck-fifty by now... lol)

 

[petrek]

"busmaster11, you said:

<<I'm a Christian. I don't always follow what the Bible tells me - far from it. I know when I do something inappropriate though. >>

Just something to say to that. Don't rely on your own judgement on what's right and wrong. If you really are a Christian, then you would do what the bible tells you to do. If you do something the bibles tells you NOT to do, and you belive for yourself it's ok to do that, than you need to put yourself in check.
If you hear stuff like "that's how it was back then. It's not like that now" ... that's the devil saying that. He's real slippery about using that tactic.
Everything that's in the bible applied the same now as it did back then. Like God said, He's the same yesterday, today and forever. He never changes.... as so His word doesn't either. You sometimes have to reapply logic, but it all means the same today as it did then.

As for this thread, you're right about the hypocrites and such. It's all too common today. People say one thing and do another... all by their own logic.
"There's nothing wrong with doing this! I'm not hurting anyone!" they say... referring to people that do stuff like drugs and alcohol... and then claim to be Christians because they go to Church.

It's the number one reason the world is against Christianity in my opinion. But, again, that's the work of the Devil. He LOVES to hear people like that "claim" to be Christians... anything to give Christianity a bad name.

Just keep the faith and press on.

You're right. You shouldn't pass judgement on someone for being a homosexual. All that's required for Christians is to point out to them what is sin and God can rid them of it. If they don't accept it, then you go on to the next sinner and witness. No need to hash on anyone. That's for God to do. He's the judge, not us."

Agreed.

Dave

Hello Linuxboy

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Really? I see Sufis & Buddhists showing all the virtues spoken of in the Bible better than any Christians. They don't accept Christ, so they're screwed? What's up with that? Is Christ a validation seeking egomaniac? What is it about accepting him? Across the globe there's someone else with a different religious belief, who knows in their heart that they have found the truth, because they have experienced it. It seems like we cannot fully accept/comprehend that there exist equally valid beings outside of ourselves. How can one be certain of anything when others are certain of different things? Let the denial and rationalizing begin.

I think we you can step away from commitments and the preconceived notions to see what the beliefs of all these people are alluding to, then you can start to know god.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< Then why did He tell us it was our duty to spread the Gospel to the world? I really don't think He'd say it if He didn't mean it...
>>



Jesus asked the Disciples and Peter in Particular to FEED His lamb. I think our focus is to be on PHYSICAL needs of people NOT SPIRITUAL needs. Jesus exercised both aspects of Ministry, Spiritual and Physical and in my opinion He is the only one qualified to do both. The Holy Spirit was sent by JESUS to minster to Spiritual needs of people and Jesus established His Church to minister to the Physical needs of people. to be honest Most protestant churches have really slacked off in this area. You really have to give the Catholic church KUDOS for understanding this aspect of ministry.

 

[PlatinumGold]

<< Really? I see Sufis & Buddhists showing all the virtues spoken of in the Bible better than any Christians. They don't accept Christ, so they're screwed? What's up with that? Is Christ a validation seeking egomaniac? >>



no one, christian or not is in any position to state whethor or not christ is willing to accept someone or not. in this particular case tho you refer only to their ACTIONS and not to their CONDITION. in my opinion it is very possible for people of LOW repute to earn salvation and those of OUTSTANDING quality to fail to meet the mark.

just read the Gospel. The prostitute that is brought before Jesus, the Thief on the Cross, The disciples and people of low repute and all accepted by Jesus. then you have the other extreme, the Rich young ruler, even Nicodemous when he FIRST comes to Jesus, it is my opinion that the Holy Spirit eventually got to Nicodemous, but the man that came to Jesus that night didn't truly understand Jesus as a Spiritual Savior.

 

[her209]

Sorry, read through the first couple of posts and gave up... IMO, the Bible is very much like the Constitution... you have those that follow it by the letter, and those that follow it loosely. I, myself, am not a Christian or any other sect of it, but I do believe that it has some good teachings, as all other religions do. The way I see it is that every one is looking at an elephant though from different perspectives. So I see a leg, you see a tail, and someone else sees a trunk.

 

[MereMortal]

Due to human nature, there is only one truth about religion:

the number of different religions in the world = the number of people who believe in a religion


I suppose since the advent of monotheism that the 'my god is better than your god' diatribe had to be supplanted at least partially by the 'my interpretation of God's will is better than your interpretation of God's will' diatribe. But I'm sure all of your quibbling here will put you up for the award in the category "Best interpretation of the Bible by a mortal" when you get to heaven. That's what's important, right?

 

[her209]

What happens if there is no heaven?

 

[travler]

<< Due to human nature, there is only one truth about religion:

the number of different religions in the world = the number of people who believe in a religion


I suppose since the advent of monotheism that the 'my god is better than your god' diatribe had to be supplanted at least partially by the 'my interpretation of God's will is better than your interpretation of God's will' diatribe. But I'm sure all of your quibbling here will put you up for the award in the category "Best interpretation of the Bible by a mortal" when you get to heaven. That's what's important, right? >>



You miss the whole point which is to seek a relationship with God. It is the seeking which saves you. Most of the diputes are minor in detail when compared to the overall testament. So we may disagree, but we ALL agree on something. The logic you use is convoluted.

 

[MereMortal]

<< What happens if there is no heaven? >>



What do you mean if?



<< You miss the whole point which is to seek a relationship with God. It is the seeking which saves you. Most of the diputes are minor in detail when compared to the overall testament. So we may disagree, but we ALL agree on something. The logic you use is convoluted. >>



I don't miss the whole point. I may not agree with it or want to have anything to do with it, but I don't miss it. You are being rather vague when you say the whole point is to seek a relationship with God. I don't think that is necessarily what you mean at all. Anyone could have a relationship with God, for better or worse. For example, Satan has a relationship with God (at least in some Christian sects), and I would hazard the guess that that is not the type of relationship that you seek.

And as to the disputes being 'minor', they may be, but don't try to tell me that the differences in the details is something which is trivial. Some of those minor differences have large impacts on lives today and throughout history. Anyway, my statement used sarcasm to try to show that the big picture of the belief being discussed was getting lost in what appeared to be a 'my unit is bigger than your unit' discussion. I just enjoy observing the behavior patterns of silly humans (that is all-inclusive). I will never tell you what to believe, or that your belief is wrong, as long as it doesn't encroach on my rights. And I generally don't even demand the same in return.

 

[Skyclad1uhm1]

<<

<<

<< You mean they don't happen because you've never seen it happen? Religious people believe that they did happen, not that they do everyday. >>



Miracles like those metioned in the Bible never happened IMO because it defies everything the way stuff works. People get pregnant for a reason, not because some deity wished it upon her or however a Christian's god did it. Water does not turn into wine now does it? It doesn't today and it didn't back then. >>



Miracles by definition defy the way stuff works. And religious people believe that God created nature, nature runs according to his will. If his will is for something to go against nature (a miracle), then nature gotta back away for a few moments, because nature only is a creation of God. I don't know about the miracles you mention above, because I am not Christian, but the miracle of the splitting sea was witnessed by hundreds of thousands of people. How dumb would it sound, if in the next generation there was a claim the the sea split and no one heard anything about it? >>



What happened was not immediately written down, so we can't even be sure it wasn't just changed over centuries of retelling the story. The only 'evidence' in existance is the Bible, of which there is no real proof beyond plain believe in unprovable stories, there is only faith. No other scriptures have been found telling that story which haven't been written long after the OT was created, and no physical evidence has ever been found for this claim. (If thousands of Egyptian soldiers and their equipment were lying on the bottom of a piece of water there should be some proof under the sands, even after this time) The same goes for many of the stories from the Bible. One might argue that you shouldn't take everything literally, but then the danger of human interpretation remains: What should be used in what way.

Did Jesus bring back the dead? Ignoring the fact that the body starts its decay soon after death sets in, and therefor is already damaged at that point? Maybe he performed the Heimlich Maneuver on a choking kid, was that later told as 'the kid was almost dead, and later written down as bringing him back from the dead. No way we can prove it, and therefor the only importance remains in whether you want it to be the truth. For some it will be the literal truth, some people believe in Jesus but do not take the Bible literally, and some do not believe in the truth of the Bible and therefor refuse to believe in Christianity.

Jews believe in the OT, but not in Jesus as Messiah or prophet, Christians believe in OT and NT, and therefor also in Jesus as being the Messiah, and Muslims believe in the OT and NT containing errors, still containing the truth partially, but mostly being replaced by the Quran, and in Jesus as a prophet. They don't believe he performed the miracles though. All do believe in miracles in some way or another though, often without being able to put down any proof besides the religious book itself. Religion is about faith, not science.

P.S. Whee! In the religious flamefest before Elledan!