Reinstitute the Draft now...

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mc00

Senior member
Jan 25, 2005
277
0
0
to: "palehorse74""
if you still around..
oh dude... why you just dress up as superman and save the fckin world.


"
That all sounds well and good, but the problem is that I DON'T WANT TO GO TO THE MIDDLE EAST. Its the last place on earth I want to visit. Religious fanatics, honor killings, beheadings, racism, sexism, just plain fvcking idiot-ism and medieval savagery. I have no wish to get any closer to those people than I am watching the news every night. I don't want to fight them or waste my life trying to drag them into the 19th century. Their culture was more advanced in 1000 AD than it is now...doesn't that tell you something?

I'd much rather we just develop an alternative means of fuel. Then, the only time I'd have to see these people would be in National Geographic where they belong! I'm sorry if that offends some of you, but I'm fvcking tired of the Middle East and everything it stands for and causes.

"

I agree 90% with you ;)
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: M00T
EDIT:

Oh, and I forgot to mention about Saddam's role in terrorism. Have you forgotten who trained Bin Laden and his cohorts? Do you realize that the U.S. created the very monster it now uses to justify war?

in actuality, the US never directly contributed to or met with Osama Bin Laden during the Afghan war with Russia. For politcal reasons, we gave the the control of arms and moneys distribution to the Pakistani ISI during the entire war. They, in turn, decided for their own various reasons to distribute those items throughout Afghanistan to the various Mujihadeen forces. I also hope you understand the reasons we had at the time for underminding the Russian expansion into Central Asia. yes? no?

I suggest you read a great book named "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll that sums up the actions we took In Afghanistan from 1979-1990 very well. You may also wish to read "Afghanistan The Bear Trap: The Defeat of a Superpower" by Mohammed Yousaf. Once you finish those, I'll give you a few others to use as cross-references.

G'day.

if you knew anything about this at all, you would realize that it was US who decided to intervene in afghanistan? Afghanistan was solidly in the soviet sphere, after all, it was the governemnt of afghanistan thank ASKED for soviet troops. But you can have your "history", since it makes you feel good :).
 

miketheidiot

Lifer
Sep 3, 2004
11,060
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
it's very disconcerting to see just how many cowards would run for Canada. This is why I'm glad that I missed the 60's... it sickens me.

not cowords, just people with a moral core that you clearly lack.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: HombrePequeno
I would deny the US government my tax money by heading up to Canada. If the US wants to institute a draft, fine, but they'll be doing it without my tax dollars. I'm fine with turning my back on a nation that denies me basic rights.


Great post FutureShock.

Funny, I just shipped a sat reciever to a Canadian. Why, you ask? Because the Canadian government does control what can be recieved in country and they want to watch more than that. You'll enjoy living there. You left yet?

Just like the American government doesn't want you to smoke Cuban cigars LOL. What a weak example. The US/Canada are basically the same thing and to somehow act like the US is superior because of a CRTC ruling and the Canadian satellite lobby is ridiculous.


I think the real issue is the boring assed artsey fartsey programming in Canada. if the programming were worth a chit, he wouldn't be trying to get a dish so he could be getting US programming. maybe he just got tired of listening to liberal drivel 24/7!
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: eits
Originally posted by: Condor

The Bush administration only understand strength and fear. Logic and reason has failed for 1400 years. Time to give up thinking of them like other people you know.

fixed.

*brainwashed* Exactly why we are lucky he is in charge!

fixed.


Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Originally posted by: Condor
I hardly think paying for the equipment and paying for the programming is piracy. Recieving US programming north of the border without paying a Canadian for it seems to be the rub.

The only way the guy can get away with it , is to use an American address (illegal) or use a card that's been hacked. Come on man, if your in the biz you know the scoop, don't try to play innocent


The fellow thinks that Canadian programming stinks. While I lived there for four years and enjoyed the programming, I did get a little tired of watching Winter Olympics, ice skating and hockey full time.

You forgot CURLING 24 hour CURLING
The dude wants the dish so he can catch some pay per view (which he is not going to pay for) movies instead of having to rent them

American =
Direct TV
DIRECTV lets you select from more than 250 available channels

Canadian=
Over 400 channels for you to choose from!


What do you know about Revenue Canadia

Nothing, I have never heard of them ;)

This is getting off topic

 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Originally posted by: Fraggable


Wow! Someone on ATOT standing up for something!

I would personally love it if it was reinstated. I'm 21 and finishing my associates' degree and would most likely be one of the first to go.

Then go sign up, you don't need to drag other people into war to make you feel better. Easy to say "I'd join up in a second, if there was a draft , but too bad there isn't, I guess I'll go on with my life."
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

Imagine that. There seem to be many parallels between the Israeli and American power structures lately. I wonder who is copying whose notes? Or are they all just the same notes to begin with?

As for TV programming, the U.S. can hardly take umbrage with Canada's "artsey fartsey" programming considering the plethora of "reality TV" garbage, TV programs that look like video games, and "entertainment" segments masquerading as news here in the USA.

Back to the subject of the draft, the mass media mentioned above does no doubt have an impact on the American mindset toward other nations and the military draft. If we can use mass media to teach our people to lower their opinions of others while at the same time glorifying war for our kids through video game-like presentations on TV the military's recruitment battle is half won already.


 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: M00T
EDIT:

Oh, and I forgot to mention about Saddam's role in terrorism. Have you forgotten who trained Bin Laden and his cohorts? Do you realize that the U.S. created the very monster it now uses to justify war?

in actuality, the US never directly contributed to or met with Osama Bin Laden during the Afghan war with Russia. For politcal reasons, we gave the the control of arms and moneys distribution to the Pakistani ISI during the entire war. They, in turn, decided for their own various reasons to distribute those items throughout Afghanistan to the various Mujihadeen forces. I also hope you understand the reasons we had at the time for underminding the Russian expansion into Central Asia. yes? no?

I suggest you read a great book named "Ghost Wars" by Steve Coll that sums up the actions we took In Afghanistan from 1979-1990 very well. You may also wish to read "Afghanistan The Bear Trap: The Defeat of a Superpower" by Mohammed Yousaf. Once you finish those, I'll give you a few others to use as cross-references.

G'day.

if you knew anything about this at all, you would realize that it was US who decided to intervene in afghanistan? Afghanistan was solidly in the soviet sphere, after all, it was the governemnt of afghanistan thank ASKED for soviet troops. But you can have your "history", since it makes you feel good :).

you have absolutely NO clue regarding the history of Afghanistan. I can assure you that I am better versed in their real history than you will ever be. Afghanistan was never "solidly in the Soviet sphere" as you so ignorantly put it. You may have been more accurate if you had said "Kabul was solidly in the Soviet sphere..." but you didnt... you are wrong.

I dont have "my" histroy of Afghanistan, I know THE history of Afghanistan and all of their conflicts going back several hundred years.

I promise you that you will lose if you challenge my knowledge of their history... and lose badly.

Anyways, back on topic...

The draft has its pros and cons, but I have been taught since birth to respect my Country. If I had been drafted instead of enlisting, I still would have fulfilled my obligations to the government that has given my family and myself so many opportunities. There are many who would serve regardless of their personal feelings on the war in Iraq. They would do so for the sake of the men and women fighting next to them, and they would do so out of loyalty and respect for their country.

I can see that this P&N board has very few of those with the moral fortitude to fulfill their obligations. That's just sad if you ask me... our country has certainly grown soft since the 1940's. :(
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
AH HA HA HA HA HA!!

Now here come the Hannityisms! "moral fortitude"


BWA HA HA HA HA HA!!



Palehorse is straight out of the Nixon book. Probably thinks the Swiftboaters are moral, upstanding, and completely honest citizens, too! :laugh: :laugh:
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I can assure you that I am better versed in their real history than you will ever be.

Once you start making statments like that, you've lost

can see that this P&N board has very few of those with the moral fortitude to fulfill their obligations. That's just sad if you ask me... our country has certainly grown soft since the 1940's. :(


Originally posted by: palehorse74
that does nothing to discredit the fact that each of those reasons is the truth NOW. Quit living in the past and using old reasons to argue against the war.

You better slow down, maybe take notes of what your posting, you seem to kind of flip flop here and there



 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I can assure you that I am better versed in their real history than you will ever be.
Once you start making statments like that, you've lost.
Actually, he does have a point. The Soviets didn't have much support beyond Kabul. He just decided to come off like some holier-than-thou, condescending asshat instead of offering a calm, thought-out, informative rebuttal.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
55
86
I'm just commenting on the * I'm smarter then you will ever be * thing

Mike could just say fine, and dedicate a couple years studing Afghanistan. Palehorse with all his commitments to his I.T. job, fighting in Iraq, playing BF2 and working for Army Intelligence may find himself with someone who knows as much as he does
 

1EZduzit

Lifer
Feb 4, 2002
11,833
1
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Quit living in the past and using old reasons to argue against the war.

Just because Bush & Co. had to come up with new reasons to jusify the war doesn't make the old reasons against the war any less valid. If anything it makes them more valid.
 

Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
I'm still waiting for Palehose to answer my post a few pages back: "How do you define victory?" And who pays for it?

FS
 

Uhtrinity

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2003
2,263
202
106
I can see that this P&N board has very few of those with the moral fortitude to fulfill their obligations. That's just sad if you ask me... our country has certainly grown soft since the 1940's. :(

Yet again you compare the present day conflict with WWII, IMHO there is no comparison. I would gladly fight in a conflict like WWII where there was true injustice and a valid threat. However I would not / will not fight in Iraq for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and co for lies.

You claim to have the big picture and the 'moral fortitude' and that is your opinion, however it is not the same as mine or many others.

Question, how long have you been truly active, and how much time was national guard?


::crickets::
 

CDC Mail Guy

Golden Member
May 2, 2005
1,213
0
71
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Stunt
People like you SHOULD go to the Middle East to see all the "good" you are doing over there. Maybe when people vote in and support a war, they should see what war does and how counter-productive and costly it is.

Good idea :thumbsup:

been there, done that, will do so again; and with pleasure! I know the truth. I've seen it and been a part of it.

If all I had was the news to base my judgements, I'd be as lost as most of you...

Amen brother, me too.
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
I hardly think paying for the equipment and paying for the programming is piracy. Recieving US programming north of the border without paying a Canadian for it seems to be the rub.

The only way the guy can get away with it , is to use an American address (illegal) or use a card that's been hacked. Come on man, if your in the biz you know the scoop, don't try to play innocent


The fellow thinks that Canadian programming stinks. While I lived there for four years and enjoyed the programming, I did get a little tired of watching Winter Olympics, ice skating and hockey full time.

You forgot CURLING 24 hour CURLING
The dude wants the dish so he can catch some pay per view (which he is not going to pay for) movies instead of having to rent them

American =
Direct TV
DIRECTV lets you select from more than 250 available channels

Canadian=
Over 400 channels for you to choose from!


What do you know about Revenue Canadia

Nothing, I have never heard of them ;)

This is getting off topic

Since he will be paying and registered, he won't be stealing except under Canadian law - correct?

Since he won't connect to a phone line, he can't recieve pay per view - how could he watch it?

Revenue Canada and capitol gains relate to your (I think) mention of taxes in Canada. Cap gains are 75%!

 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

Mostly does when power is involved. Power and fear is why you pay taxes. Say it ain't so.

 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

Imagine that. There seem to be many parallels between the Israeli and American power structures lately. I wonder who is copying whose notes? Or are they all just the same notes to begin with?

As for TV programming, the U.S. can hardly take umbrage with Canada's "artsey fartsey" programming considering the plethora of "reality TV" garbage, TV programs that look like video games, and "entertainment" segments masquerading as news here in the USA.

Back to the subject of the draft, the mass media mentioned above does no doubt have an impact on the American mindset toward other nations and the military draft. If we can use mass media to teach our people to lower their opinions of others while at the same time glorifying war for our kids through video game-like presentations on TV the military's recruitment battle is half won already.

Don't need all that, we have you!

 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

Imagine that. There seem to be many parallels between the Israeli and American power structures lately. I wonder who is copying whose notes? Or are they all just the same notes to begin with?

As for TV programming, the U.S. can hardly take umbrage with Canada's "artsey fartsey" programming considering the plethora of "reality TV" garbage, TV programs that look like video games, and "entertainment" segments masquerading as news here in the USA.

Back to the subject of the draft, the mass media mentioned above does no doubt have an impact on the American mindset toward other nations and the military draft. If we can use mass media to teach our people to lower their opinions of others while at the same time glorifying war for our kids through video game-like presentations on TV the military's recruitment battle is half won already.

Don't need all that, we have you!

What you have is a military that has been weakened by Bush's criminal mismanagement as "Commander in Chief".

FYI, in an attempt to get bodies to fill uniforms the U.S. military is lowering their standards AGAIN. The few, the proud, the failures will now make up the ranks of a military that few want to join. Bush may very well be forced to reinstitute the draft if things keep going the way they're going in the hell-hole of his own making in Iraq.

Thank King "Mission Accomplished" George and his Prince of Darkness, Dick "Last Throes" Cheney -- the demagogues whose misleadership you support.

GI Schmo

How low can Army recruiters go?

By Fred Kaplan
Posted Monday, Jan. 9, 2006, at 5:06 PM ET

Three months ago, I wrote that the war in Iraq was wrecking the U.S. Army, and since then the evidence has only mounted, steeply. Faced with repeated failures to meet its recruitment targets, the Army has had to lower its standards dramatically. First it relaxed restrictions against high-school drop-outs. Then it started letting in more applicants who score in the lowest third on the armed forces aptitude test?a group, known as Category IV recruits, who have been kept to exceedingly small numbers, as a matter of firm policy, for the past 20 years. (There is also a Category V?those who score in the lowest 10th percentile. They have always been ineligible for service in the armed forces and, presumably, always will be.)

The bad news is twofold. First, the number of Category IV recruits is starting to skyrocket. Second, a new study compellingly demonstrates that, in all realms of military activity, intelligence does matter. Smarter soldiers and units perform their tasks better; dumber ones do theirs worse.

Until just last year, the Army had no trouble attracting recruits and therefore no need to dip into the dregs. As late as 2004, fully 92 percent of new Army recruits had graduated high school and just 0.6 percent scored Category IV on the military aptitude test.

Then came the spiraling casualties in Iraq, the diminishing popularity of the war itself, and the subsequent crisis in recruitment.

In response to the tightening trends, on Sept. 20, 2005, the Defense Department released DoD Instruction 1145.01, which allows 4 percent of each year's recruits to be Category IV applicants?up from the 2 percent limit that had been in place since the mid-1980s. Even so, in October, the Army had such a hard time filling its slots that the floodgates had to be opened; 12 percent of that month's active-duty recruits were Category IV. November was another disastrous month; Army officials won't even say how many Cat IV applicants they took in, except to acknowledge that the percentage was in "double digits."

(These officials insist that they will stay within the 4 percent limit for the entire fiscal year, which runs from October 2005 through September 2006. But given the extremely high percentage of Cat IVs recruited in the fiscal year's first two months, this pledge may be impossible to keep. For the math on this point, click here.)

Some may wonder: So what? Can't someone who scores low on an aptitude test, even very low, go on to become a fine, competent soldier, especially after going through boot camp and training? No question. Some college drop-outs also end up doing very well in business and other professions. But in general, in the military no less than in the civilian world, the norm turns out to be otherwise.

In a RAND Corp. report commissioned by the office of the secretary of defense and published in 2005, military analyst Jennifer Cavanagh reviewed a spate of recent statistical studies on the various factors that determine military performance?experience, training, aptitude, and so forth?and concluded that aptitude is key. A force "made up of personnel with high AFQT [armed forces aptitude test] scores," Cavanagh writes, "contributes to a more effective and accurate team performance."

The evidence is overwhelming. Take tank gunners. You wouldn't think intelligence would have much effect on the ability to shoot straight, but apparently it does. Replacing a gunner who'd scored Category IV on the aptitude test (ranking in the 10-30 percentile) with one who'd scored Category IIIA (50-64 percentile) improved the chances of hitting targets by 34 percent. (For more on the meaning of the test scores, click here.)

In another study cited by the RAND report, 84 three-man teams from the Army's active-duty signal battalions were given the task of making a communications system operational. Teams consisting of Category IIIA personnel had a 67 percent chance of succeeding. Those consisting of Category IIIB (who'd ranked in the 31-49 percentile on the aptitude test) had a 47 percent chance. Those with Category IV personnel had only a 29 percent chance.

The same study of signal battalions took soldiers who had just taken advanced individual training courses and asked them to troubleshoot a faulty piece of communications gear. They passed if they were able to identify at least two technical problems. Smarts trumped training. Among those who had scored Category I on the aptitude test (in the 93-99 percentile), 97 percent passed. Among those who'd scored Category II (in the 65-92 percentile), 78 percent passed. Category IIIA: 60 percent passed. Category IIIB: 43 percent passed. Category IV: a mere 25 percent passed.

The pattern is clear: The higher the score on the aptitude test, the better the performance in the field. This is true for individual soldiers and for units. Moreover, the study showed that adding one high-scoring soldier to a three-man signals team boosted its chance of success by 8 percent (meaning that adding one low-scoring soldier boosts its chance of failure by a similar margin).

Smarter also turns out to be cheaper. One study examined how many Patriot missiles various Army air-defense units had to fire in order to destroy 10 targets. Units with Category I personnel had to fire 20 missiles. Those with Category II had to fire 21 missiles. Category IIIA: 22. Category IIIB: 23. Category IV: 24 missiles. In other words, to perform the same task, Category IV units chewed up 20 percent more hardware than Category I units. For this particular task, since each Patriot missile costs about $2 million, they also chewed up $8 million more of the Army's procurement budget.

Some perspective here: Each year the Army recruits 80,000 new troops?which amount to 16 percent of its 500,000 active-duty soldiers. Even if 12 percent of recruits were Category IV, not just for October but for the entire coming year, they would swell the ranks of Cat IV soldiers overall by just 1.9 percent (0.12 x 0.16 = .0192).

Then again, viewed from another angle, this would double the Army's least desirable soldiers. These are the soldiers that the Army has long shut out of its ranks; that it is now recruiting avidly, out of sheer desperation; and that?according to the military's own studies?seriously degrade the competence of every unit they end up joining. No, things haven't gone to hell in a handbasket, but they're headed in that direction. Every Army officer knows this. And that's why many of them want the United States to get out of Iraq.

No doubt an insight into the mental processes of a few of our own members here at P&N. ;)
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: Orignal Earl
Originally posted by: Condor
Your heros would still be trying to get the other cells into court while they were blowing up you and your neighbors.

Watched a good show on the History channel (Canadian version) last night on how Sharon came to power. Seems fear played a major role

Mostly does when power is involved. Power and fear is why you pay taxes. Say it ain't so.

It may be so in the America that Bush and the people who support his "vision" have created but that America is a cynical and morally bankrupt shadow of its former self. You're paying your taxes to have Bush scare you into relinquishing your rights and the ideals America once stood for.

Is this Bush's idea of "victory" in his "war on terror"???


 
May 16, 2000
13,522
0
0
Originally posted by: Condor
Originally posted by: palehorse74
it's very disconcerting to see just how many cowards would run for Canada. This is why I'm glad that I missed the 60's... it sickens me.

It sickened me in the sixties. I refuse to be PC with these lowlife jerks!

That's ok, because many of us were sickened by those supporting the war, then and now. You have an opinion, worth exactly equal to everyone elses. That's just the way the world is broken down I'm afraid. The trick is to find ways for us to live together without having to resort to violence or abusive behaviors. Failure to do that will eventually lead to another civil war.