Reinstitute the Draft now...

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Future Shock

Senior member
Aug 28, 2005
968
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
So when are you getting deployed?

Read above...has already been sent once and "hopefully" going back. Maybe we can keep one of the better ones here stateside!
correction, I've been twice and I'm set to go back again next year. As I've dedicated my life to battling fanaticism and terrorism, I expect that it wont be my last trip over there either.

It feels great to actually contribute. The peace-of-mind and sense of accomplishment are amazing and fulfilling.

it's better than Yoga!

Now, get back on topic, what would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

You say you want a draft? I'll say you are not taking it far enough - we would need a full-out war footing. You DO know we are not even close to being on a war footing, right? That the whole reason that we haven't sufficient armoured vehicles is because only ONE company is allowed to make up-armoured Humvees? That kind of ****** isn't allowed in a real country at war - the Defense Department appropriates the patent, they hand it to GM or Ford, and say "go crank out 200,000 of these NOW!". But we are playing at war, we don't want any of the Defense contractors to not get rich, we don't want to inconvenience the public who may not be able to get their new SUV on time because the production line was converted to armoured Humvee production. But if you want a draft, then we need enough weapons and logistics to support it - no pansy assing around with Defense contractors, no deferrments for sons of Congressmen, no worrying about the impact on the civilian economy. Because THAT'S what it would take to support that many troops.

Now, I'm thinking it's too bad you don't have the background to understand the context of what you are thus saying. You haven't studied the past, you have learned only a smidgeon of military history, and have absolutely NO training in psychology. And absolutely NO education in world politics and economics.

IRAQ is not the FSCKING long-term problem of the US. Al-Queda isn't even the worst problem facing the US.

The rise of China and Asia is. They will be kicking our asses economically in the next two decades. They will be the reason why their will be no money for you to retire on, reduced schooling for your children, and decline of standard of living. And nearly every single DIME we are spending in Iraq is being funded by going further and further into debt with them.

But WHO is going to pay for it? WHO is going to really put this country on a war footing? The costs you are talking about put what we currently spend to shame. And that is just more debt to the Chinese, and a much worse economic position than we can recover from.

For what? To rebuild a shithole country? That doesn't even produce THAT much oil anymore? That had almost NOTHING to do with Osama and the 9/11 attacks? That had NO WMDs? That has almost NONE of the pre-requisites that usually preceed a sucessful democracy? That is STILL split across tribal and religious lines so deeply that there is an almost certain chance that it will fracture as soon as we leave?

So we are doing a lot of good in Iraq? Bully, because that $5 BILLION per month could have done a lot of good lots of places, like here in the good 'ol USofA. Do you REALLY think that the people of Iraq will ever pay us back this expense in money and lives out of the goodness of their hearts? ROTFLMFAO...no, their political class will divide up the oil revenues between them as soon as we leave, pay some portion of it back to the oil elite in the US (inluding the Bush family), and get on with their squabbling...and laughing at the US taxpayer that put them in those positions to get rich.

You ARE aware the the approved Iraqi Constitution allows ANY set of provinces to split off from Iraq, and take control of the oil profits, if they can manage up a majority of political power by one party? You ARE aware that this is already being discussed by the head Iraqi politicians, and talking of the oil rich north going to the Kurds, and the oil riches of the south going to the Sunnis? And the US can't prevent this, because it is LEGAL in the Constitution that WE helped them devise and pass. Increasingly, it looks like we haven't given Iraq a democracy, except as a transition to tribal states, each controlling their own oil wells.

And to enable this, you would triple the number of US troops, and greatly increase our debt to those that truely DO threaten us in the bigger picture? How do you define winning then?

Future Shock
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.

So you learning Chinese now?

 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.

So you learning Chinese now?

Yup, he bought 3 new sets of pots and pans just for the occasion. ;)

 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.

So you learning Chinese now?


Probally a smart thing to do if he is.
 

arsbanned

Banned
Dec 12, 2003
4,853
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: arsbanned
You're passionate about the "War on Terror" and yet you support attacking and occupying a country which had nothing, it has been proven, to do with any terror attacks on the U.S.

Not on US soil perhaps, but you have very little understanding about Saddam's actual role in the terrorist underworld... Most of which is still classified, but someday you will understand.

If you'd like, I could link you to some books that you probably wont find on moveon.org... books by insiders, agents, etc, that will paint the real picture for you in terms of Saddam's direct role in that underworld... send me a PM. all i ask is your willingness to be openminded for once as you read the other side of the issue from those who have been there.

You have my e-mail address, feel free to enlighten me. I do hope it's more convincing then what the Secretary of State presented to the UN in the run up to the invasion though. Perhaps you should have shared this information with Mr. Powell and not left him looking like a complete fool.
You are aware that Saddam was a friend of the U.S I presume. You've seen the photos of a smiling Rumsfeld with him? You're aware we provided him with weaponry?
Knowing all that, you really don't see the irony in the idea he's the latest boogeyman the U.S. simply had to destroy.
 

Skriptures17

Member
Jan 4, 2006
106
0
0
WE dont need a draft we already got "palehorse74" over there he can take all of the mideast on by himself. jeez
 

kongs

Senior member
May 5, 2005
317
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
So when are you getting deployed?

Read above...has already been sent once and "hopefully" going back. Maybe we can keep one of the better ones here stateside!
correction, I've been twice and I'm set to go back again next year. As I've dedicated my life to battling fanaticism and terrorism, I expect that it wont be my last trip over there either.

It feels great to actually contribute. The peace-of-mind and sense of accomplishment are amazing and fulfilling.

it's better than Yoga!

Now, get back on topic, what would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

I feel that it is great that you are happy to risk your life for what you believe in and your country. Believe me everyone here in the United States backs you 100 percent. What many of don't agree with is the reason for us being there. Many lives have been lost without any "end" or "containment" of terrorism.
 

kongs

Senior member
May 5, 2005
317
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I want the draft reinstituted so as to provide firsthand experiences for those who would not normally see the situation in the Greater Middle East for what it really is. I want more people to see all of the good that we are doing over there so that they come back and spread the truth. The liberal media will never cover the story accurately, so it is time to take more drastic measures to show our countrymen the truth.

It would also be nice to see alot more people get up off their collective lazy arses and actually do something for their great country which provides them with so much prosperity and opportunity. It's about time more people earn their keep and contribute more than carbon dioxide to the greater good.

What would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

/discuss

laugh
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.
So you learning Chinese now?
I will be starting to since I'll likely be over there several more times. Hell, if my kids were grown, I'd consider moving to Shanghai. Beautiful city.


Anyway...enough OT posting.
 

kongs

Senior member
May 5, 2005
317
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: umbrella39
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I want more people to see all of the good that we are doing over there so that they come back and spread the truth.

2100+ have spread the truth loudly enough for the thinking Americans. Kthxbye

more than 2500 died on the first day of D-day in a mission to accomplish a greater good.

That is called sacrifice, and the men and women of the 40's were willing to do so. They were patriots and heroes, all of them. Their entire generation knew that we should not take our Country for granted, and they commited to sacrificing whatever was needed to end the atrocities in Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Less that 2500 in 4 years of fighting is hardly too large a price to pay for what will hopefully become a stable ME within a few decades. I personally see this mission as righteous as the fight against fascism in the 1930's and 1940's.

Wow I hope not that long!
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I want the draft reinstituted so as to provide firsthand experiences for those who would not normally see the situation in the Greater Middle East for what it really is. I want more people to see all of the good that we are doing over there so that they come back and spread the truth. The liberal media will never cover the story accurately, so it is time to take more drastic measures to show our countrymen the truth.

It would also be nice to see alot more people get up off their collective lazy arses and actually do something for their great country which provides them with so much prosperity and opportunity. It's about time more people earn their keep and contribute more than carbon dioxide to the greater good.

What would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

/discuss

I'm too old to be drafted and my son is far too young. No worries there! Why don't you enlist so you can tell us first hand about Dick and Dubya's Excellent Adventure?
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
0
some people in this thread at truly delusional..the middle east will not become stable until the decent people who do reside there uprise and fight oppression with a lust for true freedom..not this imposed freedom
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
So when are you getting deployed?

Read above...has already been sent once and "hopefully" going back. Maybe we can keep one of the better ones here stateside!

If he loved it so much, I'm sure the military would have kept him.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Unlike some people here, I believe that the OP really did serve (or is serving) in the armed forces...because I know a lot of military folks, and I've met some like him. I'm not going to dodge the draft question (no pun intended), but first I think it's important that I differentiate what I see as the two types of military folks. The first, and most common actually in my experience, is the people who think serving is a great way to help their country and who see it as a unique way to gain some interesting experiences and insight. Then there are the folks, like the OP, who view service as the one and only path to The Truth. Their experiences and service make them better than everyone else, only they have access to the truth, and the rest of us, no matter what we might do, can't join their insight club. It's not that military service is a way to find out something about yourself and the world around you, it's that military service is the ONLY way to find those things.

I'm not just knocking the OP, this actually has a lot to do with what he suggested about the draft. There are many reasons you might want the draft back, but the one that seems to be the focus of this thread is that it's the only way for us lazy, stupid civilians to see "the way things really are"...and it seems quite popular with that second type of military people. In fact, that's the whole premise of the book Starship Troopers (not at ALL like the movie). Robert A. Heinlein, who wrote the book, used to be of the same school of thought as palehorse74...going so far as to suggest only people who have served in the military should be allowed to vote. Later in life, he rejected this school of thinking, for the same reason reinstituting the draft for the reasons palehorse74 suggests is a bad idea.

Serving in the military does indeed give you a perspective, but like all perspectives, it doesn't show you everything. The most common argument in favor of the military perspective is something palehorse74 mentioned several times, seeing the good things your actions do...the people you help. Which is good, but being a set of those boots on the ground robs you of some of the larger perspective. After all, any war isn't black and white, and it's easy to get caught up in rebuilding schools and hunting down terrorists and totally miss the bad things that are going on. In fact, that seems to be a large part of the pro-war arguments of those who serve, the problems in Iraq are dismissed with uplifting stories of rebuilding schools. Great stuff, obviously, but those stories tell us very little about the larger picture. A war must look a lot different up close than it does from back home, and I'm not so sure the up-close view is the more accurate one.

In other words, the flaw with the idea of using the draft to force everyone to see things from the military perspective is that the military perspective is very persuasive, but it's not complete. It offers an interesting view of the world, but it does seem rather unbalanced. I don't trust the viewpoint offered by a group that leans so far to the right...or to the left for that matter, I would have the same problem with forcing everyone in the US to obtain a PhD in a politics or history.

well said, and i respect the element of mature discussion you have brought to the table. Thankyou for that.

That said, I simply believe that military service would add one more frame of reference for those seeking the truth of the matter. I do not believe that they should stop there in their search for answers, but I DO believe that without that tool in their arsenal, they are in fact at a disadvantage in putting all of the pieces together.

So, I dont believe that military service is the ONLY way to see the bigger picture, but I do believe that is one of them. That is the main reason why I continue to study the subject as a civilian. I am trying to come at the subject from every angle, and since I began that quest, I have seen enough from every angle to justify my feelings on, and participation in, the GWOT.

Trust me when I say that I do not have some sort of "jarhead warmonger attitude." In fact, I can't really stand that attitude. If that is how I have come off around here, then I have screwed up in my delivery.

Bottom line: my military experiences added to my understanding of the bigger picture, but were not the only frames of reference.

Here's the problem, we all form our experiences and ideas as individual things...what works well for one person does not work well for others. Military service may be just one more piece of the puzzle for some people, and it may turn them into narrow-minded idiots. Your response to my post seems reasonable enough, but take a look at the rest of your posts in your short time on P&N. You seem violently opposed to any approach to fighting terrorism that doesn't involve punching Nazis in the face. Not literally of course, but you seem to think the only solution is to put even more troops in Iraq, invade Iran, kill anyone who disagrees with our actions...up to an including any liberal Americans, or anyone who disagrees. And you seem convinced that everyone would agree with you if only they were forced to serve in the military.

This isn't about justifying your feelings, this is about forming an intelligent opinion on a complex topic based on all available input. And if we're going to force people to serve in the armed forces, I suggest we force them to take some psychology, political and comparitive religion courses as well as working for a US intelligence agency and serving as a civilian aid worker and for the love of God engaging in some critical thinking exercises. There are a lot of things people leave out of their views, I hardly think military service is the most important one.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: BarneyFife
So when are you getting deployed?

Read above...has already been sent once and "hopefully" going back. Maybe we can keep one of the better ones here stateside!
correction, I've been twice and I'm set to go back again next year. As I've dedicated my life to battling fanaticism and terrorism, I expect that it wont be my last trip over there either.

It feels great to actually contribute. The peace-of-mind and sense of accomplishment are amazing and fulfilling.

it's better than Yoga!

Now, get back on topic, what would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

I'm all for the draft, but I don't think you have been there. I've seen your posting in the IT securtiy forums going back to 2001, so how it is you are doing this and fighting in Iraq? You were opetruzel@cox.rr.com right? I'm guessing you have military duty from the mid nineties and are now claiming active duty, but you are really a compter geek, IT during the day, BF2 at night.

 

WiseOldDude

Senior member
Feb 13, 2005
702
0
0
Great idea, this would most certainly speed up our withdrawal from Iraq, and the impeachment, and imprisonment of the criminal that started this illegal war.

Remember that even Dumbya has acknowledged that Iraq really didn't have anything to do with 9/11.
 

Proletariat

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2004
5,614
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: Proletariat
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.
So you learning Chinese now?
I will be starting to since I'll likely be over there several more times. Hell, if my kids were grown, I'd consider moving to Shanghai. Beautiful city.


Anyway...enough OT posting.

C'mon big man you know there is more to life than that. At least I hope.

Lets not see FDR and JFK rolling in their graves.
 

BigCoolJesus

Banned
Jun 22, 2005
1,687
0
0
Originally posted by: homercles337
Originally posted by: palehorse74
I want the draft reinstituted so as to provide firsthand experiences for those who would not normally see the situation in the Greater Middle East for what it really is. I want more people to see all of the good that we are doing over there so that they come back and spread the truth. The liberal media will never cover the story accurately, so it is time to take more drastic measures to show our countrymen the truth.

It would also be nice to see alot more people get up off their collective lazy arses and actually do something for their great country which provides them with so much prosperity and opportunity. It's about time more people earn their keep and contribute more than carbon dioxide to the greater good.

What would you think, say, or do IF they reinstituted the draft tomorrow?

/discuss

I think youre a tool. Hows that armor upgrade going on your hummer for your Iraq visit?



:thumbsup:

Agreed on the tool part.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: conjur
Leave the BS for the playground at recess, Condor.


IOW, grow up.



But, fwiw, the last time I was at a firing range, I outshot the engineer I was with (using .22, .38, and 9mm) and in China last month, I scored the 2nd highest score of the day at an archery club in Shanghai.

I'm just curious, were you there meeting your "handlers"?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: BigCoolJesus
Originally posted by: Turkish
reading palehorse74 makes me stupider.

Also agreed
After his last post above, I think it's pretty fair to say that palehorse74 is a complete and utter embarrassment to the human race.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
9,717
2
0
conjur, give the guy a break...he is advocating what would be the end of the GOP for the forseeable future :thumbsup: