Real reason MS's OSes suck

[Nothinman]

MS is a public company. It developes software because it believes there is a market for them. It needs a market in order to keep on making profits. Do you think it is pouring billions of dollars in R&D into these technologies if people hate it so much?

Do you think people outside of MS review everything MS R&D work on? MS has R&D currently working a way to pay for email in the same way stamps pay for postal mail, do you think people like that idea?

How do you think it would plan on making the money back when the public stops buying its products? MS is very accountable to the public because it is a publically traded company.

MS believes the public will buy whatever they put out, and for the most part it's true.

Linux on the other hand is exactly the opposite, and not accountable to the public, but to a select few who believe they know better. This is why the public will never embrace linux as a daily OS.

The public won't know when they embrace linux because it'll be in devices they don't know run Linux like watches and set top boxes. You know TiVo runs Linux, right?

I'm using XP, seems to not suck to me. Do you mean MS OS's "will suck if" or "Will suck when"? or do you mean "Do suck now because"?

Sort of OT, but XP is very annoying compared to 2K. Even with all the themes set to 'classic' it's still more annoying than 2K.

You really think M$ is gonna keep registering XP? As soon as it's obsolete: "We're sorry, that operating system is no longer supported. Please sign over 50% of your annual salary for Palladium."

That's a very possible and scary premise. That when XP SE comes out MS stops allowing activation of XP, so unless you already have a working install (and plan on never reloading or upgrading your PC) you'll have to buy their latest OS. Since you have to activate with them they could do that very easily.

Seriously, if Intel and M$ make TCPA happen, you can bet that AMD and others will flip TCPA the bird. They're not gonna license the code from Intel.

AMD already signed up. And Intel and AMD cross-license a lot of things. AMD licensed SSE, SSE2, etc from Intel and Intel has licensed X86-64 from AMD.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

AMD already signed up. And Intel and AMD cross-license a lot of things. AMD licensed SSE, SSE2, etc from Intel and Intel has licensed X86-64 from AMD.

I dont remember where I read it, but Hammer and the other x86-64 chips are supposedly being shipped without TCPA restrictions. Motherboard manufacturers will probably be in charge of deciding whether they want a fritz chip or not. My guess is server class hardware will be the most likely not to have it.

 

[Nothinman]

I dont remember where I read it, but Hammer and the other x86-64 chips are supposedly being shipped without TCPA restrictions. Motherboard manufacturers will probably be in charge of deciding whether they want a fritz chip or not. My guess is server class hardware will be the most likely not to have it.

Server stuff may have it eventually as all those 'protected domains' may become usefull for security. I think I saw that AMD's chips won't have one this up coming release, but the next one. So we have one more TCPA-free release. If I have to buy Opterons just to get around it, I will, hell if AMD takes the Intel route of licensing I'll have to buy them anyway to have a SMP capable box.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

I dont remember where I read it, but Hammer and the other x86-64 chips are supposedly being shipped without TCPA restrictions. Motherboard manufacturers will probably be in charge of deciding whether they want a fritz chip or not. My guess is server class hardware will be the most likely not to have it.

Server stuff may have it eventually as all those 'protected domains' may become usefull for security. I think I saw that AMD's chips won't have one this up coming release, but the next one. So we have one more TCPA-free release. If I have to buy Opterons just to get around it, I will, hell if AMD takes the Intel route of licensing I'll have to buy them anyway to have a SMP capable box.

Hammer is supposed to be SMPable, but thats not something Im too worried about

The Hammer-line is the only "PC" chip Im even remotely interrested in at this point. As long as I can turn off DRM crap, Im happy. Im considering a switch to mostly Sun gear. Not sure though.

I see benefits in *voluntary* DRM.

 

[NokiaDude]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: drag
For all that is holy. Stop giving your money to these freaks. (ie Compaq, HP, IBM, Intel and Microsoft)

I'm hoping that I can stick with Windows XP for a long time. I don't know when games and programs will require something new, but I plan on having XP for a while.

Me too. I bought a Full Version of Windows XP Professional last year and I plan of never changing OSes, EVAR!!!!!!!

 

[vash]

Information "protection" is what businesses need and MS is creating an OS and system that businesses will desire. From protecting the ripping of audio CDs to the opening of specific documents, MS is creating a system in which businesses can control exactly what you are able to open/read, etc. Why *wouldn't* businesses want these kinds of controls?

People that don't like these kinds of actions from MS, will switch to other operating systems or won't upgrade to the newer MS os. I find very few people that *HATE* MS for their products, I find more linux people that like what MS did for (consumer) operating systems because if it wasn't for their shortfalls, some group of people wouldn't have made something better (linux, Apple, etc)

vash

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

I don't feel either angry or hopeless. I can't, and if I ever start to I'll probably implode.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

I don't feel either angry or hopeless. I can't, and if I ever start to I'll probably implode.

Well, didn't necessarily mean that people feel extremely angry or hopeless, just to an extent. People definitely don't have a complete lack of emotion about it, that's for sure.

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

I don't feel either angry or hopeless. I can't, and if I ever start to I'll probably implode.

Well, didn't necessarily mean that people feel extremely angry or hopeless, just to an extent. People definitely don't have a complete lack of emotion about it, that's for sure.

Agreed, but I won't be needing any antidepressants.

If nobody can see the light but me, I'm fine. Their loss.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

I don't feel either angry or hopeless. I can't, and if I ever start to I'll probably implode.

Well, didn't necessarily mean that people feel extremely angry or hopeless, just to an extent. People definitely don't have a complete lack of emotion about it, that's for sure.

Agreed, but I won't be needing any antidepressants.

If nobody can see the light but me, I'm fine. Their loss.

But there is collateral damage, i.e. sometimes flaky browser compatability, no photoshop on non mac/win, bad/no support for some periperhals, etc etc, I could go on forever. Sure, some idiot off in their own home using windows doesn't affect you, but the whole world revolving primarily around windows definitely has its negative effects.

 

[prosaic]

Oh for pity's sake. An operating system is a tool, not a way of life. You take the announcement of a planned course of action by a software company, you place the most paranoid possible interpretation on it, then you use your flashlight to project the evil silhouette you've created to see kind of chaos you can map against the heavens. For your information what you see up there isn't a sign of your enlightenment or anyone else's ignorance. Please try to get over yourself.

If I wished to try to arouse concern for the fate of humankind among my fellow beings, I think I would concentrate upon one or two other current events that look a tad more sinister, and more capable of causing calamity, than Microsoft's business tactics.

- prosaic

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: prosaic
Oh for pity's sake. An operating system is a tool, not a way of life. You take the announcement of a planned course of action by a software company, you place the most paranoid possible interpretation on it, then you use your flashlight to project the evil silhouette you've created to see kind of chaos you can map against the heavens. For your information what you see up there isn't a sign of your enlightenment or anyone else's ignorance. Please try to get over yourself.

If I wished to try to arouse concern for the fate of humankind among my fellow beings, I think I would concentrate upon one or two other current events that look a tad more sinister, and more capable of causing calamity, than Microsoft's business tactics.

- prosaic

Hey, guess what? I think of myself as a computer nerd, and I would venture to say most or all people that know me would agree. I spend a very large amount of my time doing various computing tasks, I compute for a living, I plan on being a computer scientist for the rest of my life. So tell me, mister casual PC user, why I should not care? And you are telling me that the success of microsoft is not a sign of anyone's ignorance? Is that why all ignorant computer users I know use windows, (and all windows users I know are ignorant of these issues), and every linux/unix/etc user I know personally, is a person who is cognisant of all of these issues? This is not about ourselves being elitest, this is about something close and important to us (most in this thread I assume, anyways, myself for sure) which we do not enjoy to see going down the crapper. We have already seen it go down the crapper, it is just a matter of relevancy. The same holds true for everyone. I remember when XP came out, tons of windows users said that it looked dumb as hell and the activation was total crap, and they refused to use it. Now look at these forums at the present time. The same forums that held these paranoid win2k freaks now holds a dominantly XP-using userbase. The difference is that I/we/whoever do not simply let ourselves become desensitized and give in. We know what we like and don't like, and we don't just go with the flow.

 

[prosaic]

Heh-heh. Your presumptiousness is stupefying.

I've been using computers in my studies and in my life's work since 1963 -- big iron, mainframes, minis, special purpose-built systems, and a huge variety of these smaller format boxes people call PCs nowadays. For the past couple of years I've even been using Windows. I've seen enough blathering and foaming at the mouth and conspiracy theories about this move and that move by this or that consortium of software and OS writers that I've become desensitized all right -- to the sniveling and whining that comes from the underdogs and the gloating of the brainless members of any majority. Guess what -- none of you who make this a religion has the final answer, because there is no final answer. This stuff is just transient technology. That is all that it is. Today's hot ticket isn't even a curiosity tomorrow. Like any tool this stuff can be of benefit to those who use it wisely, and a problem for those who don't.

You may not believe it but there are people who are smarter and wiser and more experienced in general than you are. And some of them are even much more expert in your chosen field of nerdship. And some of them use Windows. The people whose opinions differ from yours aren't minions of the friggen dark lord, nor are they stupid. They just have different perspectives than you. The generalizations you make about Linux and Mac and Windows users are small-minded and insulting. If every one of the EVERY statements you've made happens to be true, then you must have a small circle of acquaintances, indeed.

- prosaic

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: prosaic
Heh-heh. Your presumptiousness is stupefying.

I've been using computers in my studies and in my life's work since 1963 -- big iron, mainframes, minis, special purpose-built systems, and a huge variety of these smaller format boxes people call PCs nowadays. For the past couple of years I've even been using Windows. I've seen enough blathering and foaming at the mouth and conspiracy theories about this move and that move by this or that consortium of software and OS writers that I've become desensitized all right -- to the sniveling and whining that comes from the underdogs and the gloating of the brainless members of any majority. Guess what -- none of you who make this a religion has the final answer, because there is no final answer. This stuff is just transient technology. That is all that it is. Today's hot ticket isn't even a curiosity tomorrow. Like any tool this stuff can be of benefit to those who use it wisely, and a problem for those who don't.

You may not believe it but there are people who are smarter and wiser and more experienced in general than you are. And some of them are even much more expert in your chosen field of nerdship. And some of them use Windows. The people whose opinions differ from yours aren't minions of the friggen dark lord, nor are they stupid. They just have different perspectives than you. The generalizations you make about Linux and Mac and Windows users are small-minded and insulting. If every one of the EVERY statements you've made happens to be true, then you must have a small circle of acquaintances, indeed.

- prosaic

Fine, you win with experience. I'm a computer owner of less than 2 whopping years so I can't hope to say I know more than you.

The fact still remains that you can either be pragmatic, OR you can be pragmatic with strong "religious" feelings, and I feel the latter is a much more interesting way to go about things. It is undeniable that computing as a whole is getting progressively more restrictive, and frankly I don't like that. I'm only talking about the aspect of DRM/TCPA/all that garbage, there is a whole slew of other reasons why I use what I use, this is hardly the sole reason, but it is definitely reassuring to know I don't have to directly deal with it.

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
A very good book to read which vaguely deals with some of the same issues and feelings as this discussion is "In the beginning... Was the Command Line" by Neal Stephenson. If you click on the link in n0c's sig and read the page he has about "whole hawg unix", that will give you a small taste, it is one of the chapters from the book.

The unfortunate thing I have started to realize lately is that the vast majority of society are thoughtless, uncaring, and generally braindead. That majority tends to screw up everything, and create the circumstances for other (generally more intellegent, thoughtful, analytical, etc) people to feel very angry and hopeless. Take the linux community for example, or even the Mac community to a lesser extent.

I don't feel either angry or hopeless. I can't, and if I ever start to I'll probably implode.

Well, didn't necessarily mean that people feel extremely angry or hopeless, just to an extent. People definitely don't have a complete lack of emotion about it, that's for sure.

Agreed, but I won't be needing any antidepressants.

If nobody can see the light but me, I'm fine. Their loss.

But there is collateral damage, i.e. sometimes flaky browser compatability, no photoshop on non mac/win, bad/no support for some periperhals, etc etc, I could go on forever. Sure, some idiot off in their own home using windows doesn't affect you, but the whole world revolving primarily around windows definitely has its negative effects.

Disagree, I've never had any hardware compatability issues and I've been using linux for about three years now. Who needs photomop when you have the GIMP.

Generally speaking if I can't load a page in linux mozilla I can't load it in windows mozilla either, and as for the single most common anti-linux complaint ever (lack of games) I answer with this, this, and this.

If the people are ignorant, they can be taught.

I try to let every I know, know that there is a choice.

(However I will always have a soft spot for Win XP, which is truly a fine piece of work.)

 

[drag]

The PC must be kept as free as possible. It is the potential source of much good. A person can express there feelings and positions without constrant over the internet. Ideas and concepts are free flowing, Idepentant of the government or borders. Supressive communist governments like china supress the people's access to the internet because a ignorant population is easier to control.

I would put the potential good of the computer and the internet can do for sociaty on about the same level as other important world changing inventions as printing press and firearms. Before the invention of the printing press, the elite had complete control over all scientific thought and knowledge. The people were taught what was convenent for them to know, the first mass produced bibles made it possible for the average person to learn how to read and learn about things such as freedom for government/church doctrine. This spured intrest in classical thought and concepts, leading directly to the rennasance. The invention and widespread use of firearms made it impossible for elite trained troops to control the population for their kings and emperors. It took years and years for a person to learn the proper use of armor, swords, bows and other martial arts. It took years and years at great expense to create a effective army back then. It would take about a week or two to train a peasant army with guns that could decimate such a army. The combination of these two inventions made it possible for us to realise the creation of democratic nations that we have today.

The computer and internet have the potential to be the next step in social evolution. With the internet it is possible for a individual person to amass a education that would be only accessable to a diciplined scolar operationg at a university at great expense. A person living in Nigeria or China has the ability to learn as much about computer science or economic theory using a 486 over a 32k line interacting with international universities databases around the world as a person living in Great Britain or the United States. In China they attempt to fitler out information from comming into there country by creating a national system of firewalls and blacklisting ip addresses, but they can't stop all of it and a educated person can easily create tunnels thru the firewall and get to any source of information they desire. Why do you think supressive regeims like Iran are so paranoid about technology? I don;t want it to even be remotely possible any government anywhere to control the internet in any way. Things like the TCPA could be the first step to these nightmares.

I am not paranoid about myself, I know whatever MS does now or in Europe or any weird laws that may get passed I know that it probably not going to effect me. I will always be able to find ways around that stuff. But it could have a negetive effect on the free flow of ideas and concepts that is possible with the realisation of the internet. I don't worry about myself I worry for those that may follow me 50 or a hundred years from now, when the information revolution begins having a explemantary effect on sociaties everywhere.

 

[prosaic]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Fine, you win with experience. I'm a computer owner of less than 2 whopping years so I can't hope to say I know more than you.

The fact still remains that you can either be pragmatic, OR you can be pragmatic with strong "religious" feelings, and I feel the latter is a much more interesting way to go about things. It is undeniable that computing as a whole is getting progressively more restrictive, and frankly I don't like that. I'm only talking about the aspect of DRM/TCPA/all that garbage, there is a whole slew of other reasons why I use what I use, this is hardly the sole reason, but it is definitely reassuring to know I don't have to directly deal with it.

I don't, and shouldn't, win with experience, and you could well know more about computing than me even though you've got two years' experience and I have over forty. That's not the issue. The point is not whether or not you might know MORE than me. The point is that it's highly probably that you don't know WHAT I know. There's a difference. I'm a reasonably bright guy, having two PhDs in scientific pursuits from big-time schools and a great deal of post-doctoral work to my name. I'm widely published, and an acknowledged "authority" in my field. Nevertheless, when I meet another, less experienced person with less formal training in my field I don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in general, but I especially don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in particular. This is not because I'm a humble guy. It's because many years ago I got tired of getting egg on my face. Get the picture? No matter how much you know, or how carefully you think you have thought things out, other people will have it figured differently than you do. And, for at least some circumstances, they'll be right -- and you'll be wrong. There is too much variability among users and their needs, too vast an array of approaches, for any of us to act as though the people who choose different approaches than ours are necessarily idiots. They may be, and they may not be. But even an idiot is right once-in-a-while. Otherwise, they'd never live long enough to procreate. And it is painfully obvious that they have procreated -- is it not???



- prosaic

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: prosaic

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Fine, you win with experience. I'm a computer owner of less than 2 whopping years so I can't hope to say I know more than you.

The fact still remains that you can either be pragmatic, OR you can be pragmatic with strong "religious" feelings, and I feel the latter is a much more interesting way to go about things. It is undeniable that computing as a whole is getting progressively more restrictive, and frankly I don't like that. I'm only talking about the aspect of DRM/TCPA/all that garbage, there is a whole slew of other reasons why I use what I use, this is hardly the sole reason, but it is definitely reassuring to know I don't have to directly deal with it.

I don't, and shouldn't, win with experience, and you could well know more about computing than me even though you've got two years' experience and I have over forty. That's not the issue. The point is not whether or not you might know MORE than me. The point is that it's highly probably that you don't know WHAT I know. There's a difference. I'm a reasonably bright guy, having two PhDs in scientific pursuits from big-time schools and a great deal of post-doctoral work to my name. I'm widely published, and an acknowledged "authority" in my field. Nevertheless, when I meet another, less experienced person with less formal training in my field I don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in general, but I especially don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in particular. This is not because I'm a humble guy. It's because many years ago I got tired of getting egg on my face. Get the picture? No matter how much you know, or how carefully you think you have thought things out, other people will have it figured differently than you do. And, for at least some circumstances, they'll be right -- and you'll be wrong. There is too much variability among users and their needs, too vast an array of approaches, for any of us to act as though the people who choose different approaches than ours are necessarily idiots. They may be, and they may not be. But even an idiot is right once-in-a-while. Otherwise, they'd never live long enough to procreate. And it is painfully obvious that they have procreated -- is it not???



- prosaic

Dude, I was going to flame you. I was gonna smoke you like a cuban cigar, but you clicked reply to thread before I could .

Well anyway that's gotta be the best paragraph I've ever read in these forums.

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: drag
The PC must be kept as free as possible. It is the potential source of much good. A person can express there feelings and positions without constrant over the internet. Ideas and concepts are free flowing, Idepentant of the government or borders. Supressive communist governments like china supress the people's access to the internet because a ignorant population is easier to control.

I would put the potential good of the computer and the internet can do for sociaty on about the same level as other important world changing inventions as printing press and firearms. Before the invention of the printing press, the elite had complete control over all scientific thought and knowledge. The people were taught what was convenent for them to know, the first mass produced bibles made it possible for the average person to learn how to read and learn about things such as freedom for government/church doctrine. This spured intrest in classical thought and concepts, leading directly to the rennasance. The invention and widespread use of firearms made it impossible for elite trained troops to control the population for their kings and emperors. It took years and years for a person to learn the proper use of armor, swords, bows and other martial arts. It took years and years at great expense to create a effective army back then. It would take about a week or two to train a peasant army with guns that could decimate such a army. The combination of these two inventions made it possible for us to realise the creation of democratic nations that we have today.

The computer and internet have the potential to be the next step in social evolution. With the internet it is possible for a individual person to amass a education that would be only accessable to a diciplined scolar operationg at a university at great expense. A person living in Nigeria or China has the ability to learn as much about computer science or economic theory using a 486 over a 32k line interacting with international universities databases around the world as a person living in Great Britain or the United States. In China they attempt to fitler out information from comming into there country by creating a national system of firewalls and blacklisting ip addresses, but they can't stop all of it and a educated person can easily create tunnels thru the firewall and get to any source of information they desire. Why do you think supressive regeims like Iran are so paranoid about technology? I don;t want it to even be remotely possible any government anywhere to control the internet in any way. Things like the TCPA could be the first step to these nightmares.

I am not paranoid about myself, I know whatever MS does now or in Europe or any weird laws that may get passed I know that it probably not going to effect me. I will always be able to find ways around that stuff. But it could have a negetive effect on the free flow of ideas and concepts that is possible with the realisation of the internet. I don't worry about myself I worry for those that may follow me 50 or a hundred years from now, when the information revolution begins having a explemantary effect on sociaties everywhere.

Trust me, if this is what you're worried about than what Microsoft is doing should be the least of your concerns.

While microsoft is undoubtedly a major corporate figure in the world today, you would be highly mistaken if you think that they are the only company that is putting its interests above those of the consumer. As a matter of fact, the rights of the consumer will probably be a forgotten phrase in a couple of decades, if our government continues to "fight the terrorists".

Privacy is dead. Fair use is dying. The rights of the individual as guaranteed by the constitution are becoming more and more obsolete by the day.

And all of this crap is being done in the name of "security" and "business".

Historically things like this have eventually led to rebellion and upheaval, and while I seriously doubt that things have reached that point yet, I can't help but wonder what kind of world the next generation of Americans will inheret.......

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Disagree, I've never had any hardware compatability issues and I've been using linux for about three years now.

Anecdotal, doesn't mean anything. Lots of people have zero problems, lots of people have tons of problems.

Who needs photomop when you have the GIMP.

How about people that need all of the features that photoshop has that the gimp does not? Gimp can do alot of the stuff photoshop can, but definitely not all.

and as for the single most common anti-linux complaint ever (lack of games) I answer with this, this, and this.

Except that is still not all games, and even then, alot of the ones that do work take alot of fiddling to get working. I am not defending the lazy, just acknowledging that they do exist and feel this way.

If the people are ignorant, they can be taught.

Only if they want to learn.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: wizardLRU

Originally posted by: prosaic

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Fine, you win with experience. I'm a computer owner of less than 2 whopping years so I can't hope to say I know more than you.

The fact still remains that you can either be pragmatic, OR you can be pragmatic with strong "religious" feelings, and I feel the latter is a much more interesting way to go about things. It is undeniable that computing as a whole is getting progressively more restrictive, and frankly I don't like that. I'm only talking about the aspect of DRM/TCPA/all that garbage, there is a whole slew of other reasons why I use what I use, this is hardly the sole reason, but it is definitely reassuring to know I don't have to directly deal with it.

I don't, and shouldn't, win with experience, and you could well know more about computing than me even though you've got two years' experience and I have over forty. That's not the issue. The point is not whether or not you might know MORE than me. The point is that it's highly probably that you don't know WHAT I know. There's a difference. I'm a reasonably bright guy, having two PhDs in scientific pursuits from big-time schools and a great deal of post-doctoral work to my name. I'm widely published, and an acknowledged "authority" in my field. Nevertheless, when I meet another, less experienced person with less formal training in my field I don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in general, but I especially don't assume that I know more than she or he does about things in particular. This is not because I'm a humble guy. It's because many years ago I got tired of getting egg on my face. Get the picture? No matter how much you know, or how carefully you think you have thought things out, other people will have it figured differently than you do. And, for at least some circumstances, they'll be right -- and you'll be wrong. There is too much variability among users and their needs, too vast an array of approaches, for any of us to act as though the people who choose different approaches than ours are necessarily idiots. They may be, and they may not be. But even an idiot is right once-in-a-while. Otherwise, they'd never live long enough to procreate. And it is painfully obvious that they have procreated -- is it not???



- prosaic

Dude, I was going to flame you. I was gonna smoke you like a cuban cigar, but you clicked reply to thread before I could .

Well anyway that's gotta be the best paragraph I've ever read in these forums.

Yes, more intelligent people like this is exactly what this/these forum(s) need.

Have you just started posting in the OS forum prosaic? I have not noticed you before..

 

[drag]

Privacy is dead. Fair use is dying. The rights of the individual as guaranteed by the constitution are becoming more and more obsolete by the day.

Ya, but it doesn't nessecarially have to end up like that as long as people still care about something other than just their immediate gratification and take the time to learn stuff and stand up for ourselves. If people freak out enough then we won't have to worry about TCPA compliance ever being a requirement for owning and runnning a computer. Then it will just be another choice in security and then I would welcome it with open arms, although I 'd never use it. At least I maybe wouldn't have to worry about the 100 or so hacked PC's running w2k and XP on my cable modem segment that currently fill up my poor router's RAM with it's denied packet logs...

The price for freedom in enternal vigilance. The more power the goverment gets the more vunerable the average person becomes. I also do not beleive that power corrupts it just attracts the already corrupted. blah blah blah...

 

[Spyro]

Originally posted by: drag
The price for freedom in enternal vigilance. The more power the goverment gets the more vunerable the average person becomes. I also do not beleive that power corrupts it just attracts the already corrupted. blah blah blah...

Trust me, the human heart unaided is much too sensitive to power. History has proven time and time again, that power without checks and balances corrupts.

Edit: Mispellings

 

[Spyro]

If the people are ignorant, they can be taught.

Only if they want to learn.

Let me summarize my thoughts on this: If the school room is empty, who will teach the class?

Techies reaching out to those who lack knowledge en masse is the only thing that will correct this situation. Unfortunately, a quick glance at slashdot and the Linux boards on groups.google.com pretty much confirms the fact that there is far too little cohesion in the *nix world in general for anything like this to happen.

That's why linux will not spontaneously take over the desktop. Because all Joe Lemming wants to do is surf the web and write some docs. He could care less about what OS is running under the cover.

Except that is still not all games, and even then, alot of the ones that do work take alot of fiddling to get working. I am not defending the lazy, just acknowledging that they do exist and feel this way.

Agreed. Joe Lemming probably won't even expend the effort, which is quite odd considering the fact that my 9 year old sister seems to be able to work her way around linux quite fine.

I believe that it is only a matter of time. The current generation of Americans (nevermind make that humans in general) has become far too complacent. I could probably go on and on about this, but I'm tired and sleepy and its late so I will summarize again: The classroom is empty. There is no teacher there are no students, but the school has just been built.

I hope that wasn't too cryptic

Goodnight everyone.....