Real reason MS's OSes suck

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Barnaby W. Füi

Elite Member
Aug 14, 2001
12,343
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:Q

Why is it always canada? I'll take the moon instead.

I've never been to canada, but just based on the general knowledge I have, I would venture to say that I agree more with canada's government model and whatnot than the US's. I also imagine that they can't possibly be as blind and stupid as average americans. I suppose it's possible, but even then, at least it would be a change, they'd be dumb and canadian, instead of just dumb and american, which I've had to deal with for 2 decades already.
 

Spyro

Diamond Member
Dec 4, 2001
3,366
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: wizardLRU
1. Because this is what many people want. They want not be able to download music and movies easily.

Ehhh, explanation please?

If you can easily download a copy of "The Matrix 6: Even crappier than the first!" without having to hunt, decode, encode, blah blah blah and have it be of great quality, wouldnt you want to? Apparently a lot of people do. DRM can enable it easier than all of the jobless kids that keep acne fighting medicine companies in business.

2. Because most Americans do not understand the meaning of FREE.

Why, sure they do. Free = free as in beer.

Thats exactly my point. No one understands...

3. Because most people just do not care anymore.

They must be educated.

Education will not help. American children of all people have shown their reluctance towards learning anything worthwhile. The politicians are as ignorant as ever, and do they want to change for the better of America?

4. Because large corporations are the ones that make the rules, not us.

Screw them!!!!

Say it while you can.

5. Because there are idiots out there that turn their eyes away from, or do not care about our rights being eroded in the name of the almighty dollar.

They just can't see the light

They refuse to.

We are no longer US citizens, we are but consumers.

In truth everyone's a consumer, there has never been a difference between being a US citizen and being a consumer.

It used to mean something. Or atleast thats what I gathered from the history books Ive read.

Forget it then, lets all move to Finland. Have you ever read "Atlas Shrugged", I'd say now would be a great time for something like that to really happen.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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rolleye.gif
I think it's time to move this thread to OT.

Bill
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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I could realy care less about this. MS can go screw itself and so can HP/Compaq whatever. Those a-holes can only affect me if I decide to let them. Unless they pass federal laws protecting that technology and establishing it as a legal standard. Otherwise TCPA is completely useless isn't it?

What it all comes down to is control. No way in hell this TCPA stuff has any chance of working unless it is a fedrelly mandated program. And we all know that we have been hearing about that stuff for years about how they want to force cdrom manufactures to impliment hardware technology that the entertainment industry says they need to use in order to protect their intellectual rights. This can only work thru Fedral law. In effect. If I decide that I want to manufacture cdrom drives, I have to prior fedral approvial to sell these cdroms to the public or face criminal prossecusion and fines if somebody decides to use them to play a pirated brinty speers album.

If MS and freinds do manage to make this technology mainstream, they pheakers, crackers, and copyright theives are going to stay away from it like a plague, right? They will use technology that doesn't impliment the TCPA standards. This will make it seem like criminals are thwarted by standards such as these (even though we all know these standards, whatever they are can be thwarted by something as simple as a soldiering iron and a mod chip, but criminals will be to lazy to do this unless they have to.).

Ergo the TCPA crowd will seem to have leg to stand on. They will point out that their technology can stop up to 75 percent all intellectual crime (doesn't matter how much it realy stops, they will pull a random number out, it will be impossible to refrute without heavy funds and massive long term studies). And that technology that criminals use should be banned nationally.

Then come the programmers and such that will try get linux and other uncontrolled technology to work around these limitations. ANd they will succeed of course. Then of course criminals will download these OS that will work around these TCPA limitations. Then in the eyes of the public Linux and freinds will realy be the HACKER'S OS. All attacks on the internet will be launched from *nix boxes, all illigally copyrighted material will come from *nix boxes. ON irc lines script kiddys will sing the praises of programmers that overcome copyright protections.

It will be GUILT THRU ASSOCIATION. Not what any Free OS developers did when they made there software, but what some phreaks choose to do with such technology. Developers with face criminal procesecution and will be faced with 3 choices. 1. stop making software. 2. conform to TCPA's (or whatever replaces it) standards. 3. base there operations outside the US.

THis will intern make it harder to implement software from other countries. Any software from Canada, Europe, Aisa, or anywhere else will have to meet fedral guide lines before they are allowed to publish their works in the US. People will of course fight this and download illigal software thru the internet.

China right now is the only major technological country that activily filters what it's citizens can download. What if Other countries follow?


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I know this is putting myself out on a limb. But why will we sit by and let people attempt to dictate what we can do with our computers thru fedral law? It is a slippery slope and its all about control. And I know how laws work. If you make something illigal it is natural for humans to find work-arounds. Thats just human nature. Then it is natural for governments to make means that people use to circumvent said laws illegal. Thats why we have so many f****ing laws in the first place. My logic is sound and I will use the following examples to prove it. The follow things are what people are attempting to do to our way of life right now:

Smith and Wesson manufacture guns. produce those guns for self defense, they are a tool and not anything more. People use those guns to hurt someone. Smith and Wesson gets sued for the crime, not the criminal.

Fast food makes fatty foods. People buy the fatty foods because they think it tastes good. A hambuger can't hurt you unless you eat 3 hambugers a day every day for 5 years and nothing else. Some fat slob gets a heart attack and sues Bugerking because the food they make is too tasty for him to resist. Even though everybody knows a greasy diet is dangerous, it's not the fat slob's fault for eating nothing but greasy food. If Burgerking made food that most people don't like (ie vegie burgers) then they would go out of business. How many national health fast food chains are there?

Cigerette manufactures make cigerettes. Cigerettes can't hurt you unless you smoke them everyday. If you smoke maybe once a week or only when you are hanging out, they are not anymore dangerous than sitting next to a campfire. People choose to smoke even though they know the risks. IT is a proven fact that the addictive qualities of nicotene is completely gone after about 3-7 days of not smoking, the rest is in your head. Cigerette manufactures are sued. Does the money being taken away go to people with lung cancer? Does the money go to help people kick the habit? NO! "Victims" of lung cancer don't see a penny. Lawyers get rich and states get a extra tax thru litigation. They use it to pay off bonds and road projects and stuff.

Open software manufactures knowingly provide source code and programs that circumvent computer and intellectual rights protections. A good example is NMAP. It is used every day by people seeking vunerabilities in firewall protections. They modify the source of nmap to create even more poteinnt versions of cracking technology. Criminals openly use Linux everyday as a unregulated servers software to provide a means to create and transport illigal versions of digital information. (hacking scripts, phreak text files, pirated music and movies, cracks for stolen software.) Federal regulation of powerfull software technology is a must.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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And don't think that running away from america will save you. THis s**t is socialism carried out on it's logical path. There are already forms of software illigal in most countries. For example in Germany it is illigal to own (or at least distrubute) certain versions of video games like Wolfenstien. Why wouldn't it be natural form them to make "hacking" software illigal, too? How many countries are like that nowadays?
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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No the paranoid waste there time trying to protect those that are to stupid to look out for themselves
 

Heifetz

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
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MS is a public company. It developes software because it believes there is a market for them. It needs a market in order to keep on making profits. Do you think it is pouring billions of dollars in R&D into these technologies if people hate it so much? How do you think it would plan on making the money back when the public stops buying its products? MS is very accountable to the public because it is a publically traded company.

Linux on the other hand is exactly the opposite, and not accountable to the public, but to a select few who believe they know better. This is why the public will never embrace linux as a daily OS.

Heifetz
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
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I just don't want MS to gain market share by making it illegal for people to use linux and other non-complient operating systems with software and music they buy at a store. I buy a cdrom. I can destroy it. I can piss on it. I can give it away. But if I figure out a way to copy it onto my computer without the permision of the person that produced the cdrom and I tell a friend I am violating the Digital Milenuim copyright act.

And I don't realy understand what you mean by Linux is controlled by a selected group of people who think they know better than anyone else and is not accountable to the public. If you mean that people who bother to learn how to program or learn how computers work as a "select group" you could be right. People using linux or a BSD has opertunity to control and manipulate all aspects of the computers they bought and paid for. This is currently illegal if you use MS products because they have protections to their source code under the law. Not that there is anything wrong with that. It's MS's source code and they can have complete control over it, but it doesn't mean either that I am wrong to think that Free(dom) software is a superior system. If a programmer wants to make his source code open to the public he should be able to. If a corporation takes his work and modifies it, they souldn't be able to say that the programmer's work is realy theirs and make it illigal for others to use it. Before GNU and GPL-type linscensing this happened a lot and that's how many companies like MS got many of their applications started.

Microsoft dominates the market because it made a product that is easy to use and is in a acceptable price range during a time when most commercial software vendors had their heads up there a***s. Now they use this clout to make sure that they keep control of the situation. Microsoft does its best to make sure that it is not held to any public scutiny. And thats fine its capitolism. If Pallidium is what lots of people want thats fine they can have it. I just don't want MS to try to be another company like the railroad and oil barons from the turn of the last century who used the government and people's ingnorance to enforce their positions in the market at the expense of people and competing businesses.

I am all about the capitolist system. The stock market rocks. The peopel express their opinions thru their pocketbook. HOWEVER This TCPA crap is attempt at a socialist-type control over the computer technology.
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
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The behavior you're griping about really has nothing to do with either socio-economic concept (capitalism or socialism) on an intrinsic level. It has to do with the fact that people in power in ANY political or economic system tend to strive constantly to expand their power base by whatever means may be available. Democratic socialism actually seems to have more intrinsic safeguards against these types of abuses in practice since European Union consumers are better protected against invasion of privacy than Americans, and the copyright laws in force there are considerably less Draconian in nature than those in force in the U.S. of A.

- prosaic
 

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
12,632
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Real reason MS's OSes suck

I'm using XP, seems to not suck to me. Do you mean MS OS's "will suck if" or "Will suck when"? or do you mean "Do suck now because"?

If its the former, OK, but don't hold your breath.
If its the latter, OK, whatever.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: krackato
Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: Buddha Bart
the sky is falling

The paranoid survive.

No, the pananoid waste their whole lives being paranoid and then die like the rest of us.

I dont know about you, but I work in Washington DC. If something goes on here, Im hanging out with the people that are more paranoid than I am.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: Heifetz
MS is a public company. It developes software because it believes there is a market for them. It needs a market in order to keep on making profits. Do you think it is pouring billions of dollars in R&D into these technologies if people hate it so much? How do you think it would plan on making the money back when the public stops buying its products? MS is very accountable to the public because it is a publically traded company.

Linux on the other hand is exactly the opposite, and not accountable to the public, but to a select few who believe they know better. This is why the public will never embrace linux as a daily OS.

Heifetz

What are you talking about? Linux is *open source* meaning I can change whatever I want whenever I want however I want and do what I want with it (with a few exceptions). I have even more freedom with OpenBSD. My OS works for me.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
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Originally posted by: rbV5
Real reason MS's OSes suck

I'm using XP, seems to not suck to me. Do you mean MS OS's "will suck if" or "Will suck when"? or do you mean "Do suck now because"?

If its the former, OK, but don't hold your breath.
If its the latter, OK, whatever.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

*not a comment on the quality of any specific product, just a comment on the belief some people have around here that the only correct opinion is their own.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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I would have to disagree with the idea that the socailistic democracies in Europe have safe gaurds when it comes to legislature such as the DMCA and TCPA.

By the very definition of socialism it is very applicable to the concepts exprensed thru the TCPA. Namely using centrallized government to enact social change. You want to protect the enviroment? You pass laws against behaviour that would lead to people polluting. You don't like SUVs? Pass huge taxes on gas and make it imposible for people to afford such automobiles. Don't like cigerettes? Make it illigal to smoke. Don't like gun violence? Pass laws against people possessing guns. People violating copyright laws? Make a way for the government to explore your computer at will. Poor people? raise taxes and provide welfare. This is socialism. IMO such thinking is fundamentally flawed and everything the government touches turns to crap. NOTHING has ever been solved thru easy answers that a powerfull government can provide. You can't just legislate problems away. It only makes lives of the citizens more complicated and difficult then it needs to be and opens the way for rampant corruption.

I beleive that there are 2 main reasons for the push for encryption laws in the US and lack of it thurought socialist Europe.

1. The proliferation of high technology at a individual's disposal is not as thurough in most places in Europe as it is in America. Even the poorest of our people can afford to purchese a decent PC. This makes them potentially as powerfull (in terms as sophistication) as any governmental technowizard if they are willing to spend the time to learn on how to use the tool correctly. Once Europeans reaches the same level as Americans in terms of private unregulated internet access you will see a major push for similar laws. People here are beginning the realize the power that is avaliable to them thru personal computers and the internet. Our government has to hurry up and get people confortable with governmental regulation of there private property, because political forces that are building will make stuff like the DMCA or exportation of encryption technology impossible in a few years.

2. Encryption laws are not as nessesary in Socialist state as a Proto-socialist state such as the USA. If the FBI suspects me of selling illegal software they just can't come in and bust me for it. Even if they suspect me of doing so I don't have to let them into my house to search me. If a policeman wants to talk to me and comes knocking on my doors and windows I do not even have to answer the door if I don't feel like it. My house is my property and I don;t have to let the government into it if I don't feel like it. If they bust my door in and find me with 80 kilos of cocaine stuffed under my bed they will not be able to prossecute me successfully because they obtained the evidence illigally. In order for them to search my property (ie computers, household , cars) they have to have proof beforehand. This will give me plently of time to encrypt and/or destroy any information that they can use to prossicute me. Stuff like the DMCA provides a legal reason for them to get warrents to tap my phones, break into my servers, and seaze my property. Without stuff like the DMCA that it makes it that much more difficult for them to even gather evidence against me. As I understand it this sort of legal hoops that the police force has to jump thru does not exist in most European countries. For instance in Germany they can bust down your front door for any reason with no proir warning. In many places in the US if the a average policeman was to attempt to do this with no legal backing is tantamount to attempted suicide. (careerwise and otherwise...) These laws are currently unnessary in many countries.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
 

drag

Elite Member
Jul 4, 2002
8,708
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Originally posted by: n0cmonkey
Originally posted by: rbV5
Real reason MS's OSes suck

I'm using XP, seems to not suck to me. Do you mean MS OS's "will suck if" or "Will suck when"? or do you mean "Do suck now because"?

If its the former, OK, but don't hold your breath.
If its the latter, OK, whatever.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

*not a comment on the quality of any specific product, just a comment on the belief some people have around here that the only correct opinion is their own.

Hehe. Its just the real reason why I beleive that MS sucks and why I choose free software. If you use XP thats fine with me. It's your choice, I am not going to assume that your in anyway less than me because you choose XP. XP is a fine product and a great improvement, I just happen to disagree with the morality of those that created it and what they are attempting to do.
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
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Please correct me if I am wrong.

Okay. You're wrong. :p

All of your talk about people passing laws against things that they don't like apply to society in the U.S. of A., too. The difference is that here the companies (and those who run them) often have more input into what laws get passed, and what laws don't get passed, than do the ordinary citizens. That's a form of corruption, too. This "capitalist" society also embraces all of the forms of corruption popular in socialist countries, too.

In the EU at least there are stringent standards regarding the gathering and databasing and communication of personal information, and those standards are enforced against companies that wish to do business in the EU. The standards I'm talking about are, on many points, more strict than the pretend standards used in the U.S. for the protection of Internet users under age 13.

If you're interested in protecting your rights it's not just big government that you have to worry about. After all, you should understand that since that was the main point of your original message in the thread -- a huge bitch session about eevuhl Microsoft. No? The problem here is capitalism as it has long been practiced in this country -- not socialism.

- prosaic
 

prosaic

Senior member
Oct 30, 2002
700
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Oh, BTW, regarding your point number 2 -- you might wish to read the PATRIOT act, and other funny recent scribblings to the U.S. Congress. Or, better yet, take a gander at the so-called Security Enhancement Act, a nice piece of legislation being crafted by none other than John Ashcroft.

Insofar as due process and warrants and little stuff like that are concerned, I'm old enough to remember the McCarthy era. In point of fact my parents were adversely affected by it. No one should presume to tell me about due process. I know what it's worth when governmental authority wishes to dispense with it.

- prosaic
 

DurocShark

Lifer
Apr 18, 2001
15,708
5
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I'm hoping that I can stick with Windows XP for a long time.
You really think M$ is gonna keep registering XP? As soon as it's obsolete: "We're sorry, that operating system is no longer supported. Please sign over 50% of your annual salary for Palladium."

Seriously, if Intel and M$ make TCPA happen, you can bet that AMD and others will flip TCPA the bird. They're not gonna license the code from Intel.

As for legislating TCPA, I've been sending weekly letters to my Congresscritters warning them of this and asking to fight for relaxing the latest copywrong laws. :(
 

dpm

Golden Member
Apr 24, 2002
1,513
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Drag - I'd have to disagree with you on your US/EU comparison. I'm European, and have travelled all around Europe, but i've also lived in the states for a while, so I think I can compare the two quite well.

1) Overall, the proliferation of hi-tech throughout society is about equal in the US and the EU. In the EU some countries are more 'wired' than others. In the US some states are more 'wired'...If you were going to compare the US against individual countries, you'd find that on a per capita basis, countries like Finland are quite a bit more hi-tech than the US. But overall, the US seems to have better access to broadband, while the EU has better access to mobile communications (if you like generalisations... ;) )

2) Your ideas about police searches and such are way off base. If the police want to search a house in Britain they need to get a warrant. Sound familiar? While they *could* "bust down your door with no prior warning" they could only do this if they had a warrant, and they could do exactly the same thing in the US.

Furthermore I don't see this as being a problem with socialism, or even governments with socialist tendancies (I certainly wouldn't call most EU governments socialist). Rather the things that we seem to be worrying about seem to be a problem related to capitalism - we complain about the actions of the RIAA and MPAA and Microsoft, but they are merely seeking to make profit, and to protect their market share. When you have politicians that are so enthusiastic about capitalism that they sell themselves to the highest bidder, then you and I start seeing problems.