Rage3d G80 review

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Odd for nvidia to drag their heels as you put it. But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe, but here goes. Maybe nvidia is holding back intentionally. Why, you ask? Ok. Nvidia has released the last 2 gens well before ATI's corresponding gens. This gave ATI plenty of time to see how Nvidia hardware performed, and tweak their clocks and drivers and whatever, and do whatever they had to do to be competitive or just best nvidia's fps in games. It could be possible, some may not see it this way, but possible that nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering. DAAMIT will do what they need to do to get their R600 just a scooch faster than current G80 performance for the R600's January debut, which is what ATI has done the last two gens. I think Nvidia likes to be first to market for obvious reasons, but there is the downside of letting your competition know exactly what they have to do to best it by being out first. So, put a grain of salt label on this theory if you desire, because it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

Keys

Dunno Keys.. I don't like this theory though.
Because I chose this card instead of waiting to see what R600 has to offer basically for performance and IQ reasons. Now IF Nvidia CAN unlock the xS AA and the hybrid modes and they won't do it in the next series of drivers I will find this indimitating for the consumer. Why should I have to wait for R600 to play my older games with insane IQ settings? I can understand that they may want to keep an asset in their sleeve for R600 launch but this can be in the form of performance (madd+madd anyone? Ok this might be far stretched and I don't know if the second MADD instead of MUL is there and can be unlocked) and not IQ.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: BFG10K

If you were to throw the G80's in SLI, what AA methods would that release?

AFAIK only SLI 8x is operational at the moment.

nVidia are sitting on an absolute gold mine with regards to the potential new AA modes revolving around 8xQ/16xQ but they're really dragging their heels.

Odd for nvidia to drag their heels as you put it. But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe, but here goes. Maybe nvidia is holding back intentionally. Why, you ask? Ok. Nvidia has released the last 2 gens well before ATI's corresponding gens. This gave ATI plenty of time to see how Nvidia hardware performed, and tweak their clocks and drivers and whatever, and do whatever they had to do to be competitive or just best nvidia's fps in games. It could be possible, some may not see it this way, but possible that nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering. DAAMIT will do what they need to do to get their R600 just a scooch faster than current G80 performance for the R600's January debut, which is what ATI has done the last two gens. I think Nvidia likes to be first to market for obvious reasons, but there is the downside of letting your competition know exactly what they have to do to best it by being out first. So, put a grain of salt label on this theory if you desire, because it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

Keys

You aren't alone in your thoughts - hence my reasoning we will see some "miracle" drivers moments before R600 launches. Also, the last few driver releases haven't resolved many bugs present in most of them - I think nvidia is hoarding its driver improvements to deliver them as one big package.

 

[josh6079]

nVidia are sitting on an absolute gold mine with regards to the potential new AA modes revolving around 8xQ/16xQ but they're really dragging their heels.

QFT. I think that once the normal quirks are worked out and games are rendered appropriately we'll start to see some additions. Time will tell, hopefully they'll pick up the pace and:

[*] Support 64-bit XP and Vista--ya know, that DX10 OS that is trumped on the G80's packaging as "Essential Vista"--because these guys aren't happy about it.

[*] Add xS modes to the driver options in the driver control panel when making AA settings.

[*] Fix rendering issues with games other than those held in a typical benchmark.

But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe...nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering...it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

I think both know almost exactly what the other one is doing, it's just that they utilize different opinions and methods to achieve a similar affect. I think that is why most of the time we see such similar products, differing only in one or two features or at least the algorithms used for those features.

If your theory is indeed the case then Nvidia cares more about the competition (which they claim is down low enough to be kicking) than they do their consumers. If they are really a superior company with a superior product, why would they need to hold back on a supposedly disappearing corporation?

I honestly think that they're getting used to the architecture itself and determining how to code it well enough to stop having the glitches that it sometimes is victim to--especially--in older games.

Better coded / more stable drivers first. IQ additions and frame-inflating drivers second.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Odd for nvidia to drag their heels as you put it. But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe, but here goes. Maybe nvidia is holding back intentionally. Why, you ask? Ok. Nvidia has released the last 2 gens well before ATI's corresponding gens. This gave ATI plenty of time to see how Nvidia hardware performed, and tweak their clocks and drivers and whatever, and do whatever they had to do to be competitive or just best nvidia's fps in games. It could be possible, some may not see it this way, but possible that nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering. DAAMIT will do what they need to do to get their R600 just a scooch faster than current G80 performance for the R600's January debut, which is what ATI has done the last two gens. I think Nvidia likes to be first to market for obvious reasons, but there is the downside of letting your competition know exactly what they have to do to best it by being out first. So, put a grain of salt label on this theory if you desire, because it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

Keys

However, in the end the X1800XT usually performed better than the 7800GTX and the X1900XTX usually performed better than the 7900GTX...except usually in Prey and such. I think ATI can play the driver improvement game too.

Although, I am with Jim1976 on this one. Why should I not be getting the full performance benefits of the 8800GTS I bought right now instead of having to wait until R600?? I don't give a damn whether Jen-Hsun Hwang wants to stroke his e-penis by claiming the G80 to be the fastest with a "miracle" driver update. I paid a lot for the card and why should early adopters be screwed over in the performance?

I think they better get working on some new drivers for the 8800 cards. I still can't play Splinter Cell Double Agent...overclocking is a bitch(using the NVidia software)...xS modes not there. Even with the beta 97.28 driver apparently the Double Agent issue is not fixed. It's a new architecture, so I can understand somewhat...but my patience is running thin after spending CAD$600 for the GTS and I can't play a game I was so looking forward to playing. I thought it was ATI that was supposed to have driver problems. :disgust: Where's Crusader to complain about NVidia driver problems??

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: josh6079

nVidia are sitting on an absolute gold mine with regards to the potential new AA modes revolving around 8xQ/16xQ but they're really dragging their heels.

QFT. I think that once the normal quirks are worked out and games are rendered appropriately we'll start to see some additions. Time will tell, hopefully they'll pick up the pace and:

[*] Support 64-bit XP and Vista--ya know, that DX10 OS that is trumped on the G80's packaging as "Essential Vista"--because these guys aren't happy about it.

[*] Add xS modes to the driver options in the driver control panel when making AA settings.

[*] Fix rendering issues with games other than those held in a typical benchmark.

But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe...nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering...it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

I think both know almost exactly what the other one is doing, it's just that they utilize different opinions and methods to achieve a similar affect. I think that is why most of the time we see such similar products, differing only in one or two features or at least the algorithms used for those features.

If your theory is indeed the case then Nvidia cares more about the competition (which they claim is down low enough to be kicking) than they do their consumers. If they are really a superior company with a superior product, why would they need to hold back on a supposedly disappearing corporation?

I honestly think that they're getting used to the architecture itself and determining how to code it well enough to stop having the glitches that it sometimes is victim to--especially--in older games.

Better coded / more stable drivers first. IQ additions and frame-inflating drivers second.

I'm sure nvidia will fully support Vista, once it is ***actually released*** as a retail, commercial product, same for Dx10. Until then, so far as consumers are concerned, there is nothing to support.

 

[josh6079]

I paid a lot for the card and why should early adopters be screwed over in the performance?

Because you're an enthusiast, it's your job to get screwed. Early adopters don't just get the shaft in initial performance and stability but also in price, (typically) availability, and support. If you wanted a trouble-free experience you shouldn't be on the front lines of technology.

Not that this makes being on the front lines bad, just sometimes risky and bothersome. The benefits are amazing though being able to play with a G80 while everyone else waits. For when it works right, you're on top of the world.

I think they better get working on some new drivers for the 8800 cards. I still can't play Splinter Cell Double Agent...overclocking is a bitch(using the NVidia software)...xS modes not there. Even with the beta 97.28 driver apparently the Double Agent issue is not fixed. I thought it was ATI that was supposed to have driver problems. :disgust:

Indeed. And would you believe that they said they were almost ready to launch it a year ago. IIRC, they claimed they held back though because they wanted to work out more things to make it a more fluid release...

Where's Crusader to complain about NVidia driver problems??

He's busy using it with his Source bundle. He's not having any issues what so ever though and only comes to the forums to rant about things he doesn't have nor plans on getting.

 

[josh6079]

I'm sure nvidia will fully support Vista, once it is ***actually released*** as a retail, commercial product, same for Dx10. Until then, so far as consumers are concerned, there is nothing to support.

And XP-Pro 64-bit?

 

[Gstanfor]

Well, hardly anyone supports XP-Pro 64-bit anyway.

I've said it before and will repeat it - AMD & Intel went the wrong way about implimenting 64 bit IMHO. Over the history of X86 it has seen many extensions and these have been readily accepted and exploited by software. The whole idea that you have to be in some special 64 bit mode to access all the improvements 64 bit brings has severely hampered its effectiveness - and most 64 bits CPU's are acting as nothing more than 32 bit cpu's at present. The 64 bit extension may as well not even exist.

 

[josh6079]

Well, hardly anyone supports XP-Pro 64-bit anyway.

Hardly anyone has a G80, and they're extending the same support. The fact that more use XP-Pro 32-bit doesn't mean that they should just forget about the 64-bit version.

The 64 bit extension may as well not even exist.

According to Nvidia's G80 driver selection, it doesn't.

 

[Gstanfor]

There is only one thing about XP-64 bit that stands out to me in gamer terms - the AMD "64 bit" farcry patch - which was promptly hacked and made available for 32 bit XP.

 

[Ratchet R3D]

Originally posted by: Zstream
How can you say the 8800GTX/GTS is better then then 9700 release? The 9700 is still being used today. We have no freeking clue how the 8800 does in DX10, in fact it could be awesome or could be horrific.

I think the 8800 is a good card but do not put this bull about being better then 9700.

From a features and tech standpoint both the G80 and the R300 are drawing pretty close parallels. R300 gave us a 256bit bus for the first time, G80 gives us a 384bit bus for the first time. R300 gave us 256mb memory, G80 768mb. R300=DX9, G80=DX10. R300 gave us useable AA for the first time, G80 gave us higher levels of useable AA. So as far as introducing new features and tech they are fairly equal launches (with the exception being NVIDIA removed angle-dependent filtering instead of introducing it like ATI had done with the R300!).

Most importantly is the performance vs their competition. The 9700 Pro was up against the Ti4600 when it launched (the NV30 wouldn't see daylight for 6 more months), and there are quite a few cases where the 9700 Pro was a whole lot faster, I do not deny this (especially with AA). However, there are also some cases where the Ti4600 was competitive with the 9700 Pro, and even some cases where the Ti4600 was faster. The 8800 GTX, on the other hand, is consistently faster than the other cards it competes against. There are no cases where the other cards were even competitive (at least in my tests).

Of course, I cannot see into the future to be able to tell you whether or not people will still be using the 8800 4 years from now, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if they are.

I'm not taking anything away from the R300. I think that it will always be one one of the greatest graphics product launches of all time (if even just for what it did for ATI as a company), but I think the 8800 is just that much more impressive. This is why I felt I should say what I did.

 

[josh6079]

There is only one thing about XP-64 bit that stands out to me in gamer terms - the AMD "64 bit" farcry patch - which was promptly hacked and made available for 32 bit XP.

Are you disagreeing with me because you don't think they should ever add support for XP-Pro 64-bit or are you doing so just because you want to argue?

I don't think I was wrong in saying that users would appreciate if they added such support and I think they eventually will. However, as of right now it is on their 'to-do' list and for the time being is non-existent.

 

[Gstanfor]

For 99.99% of comsumers XP-Pro 64 bit is irrelevant and that isn't about to change. I'd much rather nvidia focus on XP 32 bit and DX9 at the moment, since thats what consumers have and use. The future will look after itself.

 

[redbox]

Gstanfor if you really want to get into it how many people use SLI? I am sure if they had a problem with that it would need to be fixed no matter how many people use it. What if the linux drivers where screwed up. To say that a problem isn't a problem based on how many people it affects is a little self centered IMO.

I'm a picky person and I'll be damned if I spent $600+ just to have the card screw up on an os that has been out for quite a while. Come on Gstanfor your a businessman right? Is that what you would tell a customer....."Sorry since not than many people have that problem there's nothing I can do for you....thanks for your $600 though " You'd have one po'd customer, but I guess Nvidia doesn't see a problem in that. It seams neither do you.

redbox

 

[Wreckage]

Good review from Rage as always. Good job Ratchet. The G80 is impressive, I look forward to DirectX 10 hitting the shelves.

 

[Gstanfor]

redbox, like any successful businessman, I make no attempt to be all things to all people. I deal with a certain range of products and within a certain area of expertise. My customers have no problem with that. If someone were to wander in off the street with XP Pro 64 bit problems, I wouldn't hesitate to tell them I can't help them and they should seek advice elsewhere, from someone who has expertise in that area.

Just for the record I've never had a customer or potential customer ever ask me anything about XP Pro 64 bit.

 

[ronnn]

Originally posted by: Nelsieus


As far as IQ, I think the much needed AF overhaul and AA improvements will be prevalent no matter what game it is (DX9). And as far as improvement in game play being quite small...well, I'm not sure what benchmarks you're referring to?

But I do get excited just thinking about the potential developers have to create software that fully utilizes these next-gen architectures (G80 and R600).

Nelsieus

I was not referring to benchmarks, was referring to subjective game playability with a standard monitor and a decent cpu with current games. From what I understand the differences from a g80 compared to last gen would be subtle, with growing pain type driver issues. Of course if you have a top flight system and a huge monitor - there are real gains right now.

I agree new software is needed, but is likely a ways away - as most games are developed with consoles in mind.

 

[rise]

Originally posted by: redbox
Gstanfor if you really want to get into it how many people use SLI? I am sure if they had a problem with that it would need to be fixed no matter how many people use it. What if the linux drivers where screwed up. To say that a problem isn't a problem based on how many people it affects is a little self centered IMO.

I'm a picky person and I'll be damned if I spent $600+ just to have the card screw up on an os that has been out for quite a while. Come on Gstanfor your a businessman right? Is that what you would tell a customer....."Sorry since not than many people have that problem there's nothing I can do for you....thanks for your $600 though " You'd have one po'd customer, but I guess Nvidia doesn't see a problem in that. It seams neither do you.

redbox

i'm sorry but get an education or stop signing your posts.

 

[josh6079]

For 99.99% of comsumers XP-Pro 64 bit is irrelevant and that isn't about to change. I'd much rather nvidia focus on XP 32 bit and DX9 at the moment, since thats what consumers have and use. The future will look after itself.

So your claim is pretty much:

I think Nvidia is doing a bang-up job and are flawless right now. Who cares if Linux, Vista, XP-Pro 64-bit, etc. users don't have any support? It's not my OS version, so Nvidia is doing great!...even though I'm not dealing with their problems....

Let's step back from your "They only need to support XP-Pro 32-bit" mantra and examine what the pinnacle nvidia consumer would love to do. This is all just for the sake of argument, something you seem keen on doing even if you're wrong.

Let's say my name is "keggerbra" and I want to build a new rig:

I know that right now Nvidia is the only choice for the extreme gamer, so I'll just get two of the newest cards they offer, making a basic 8800GTX SLI setup. Now I'll want to use a darn good chipset to utilize the most advanced SLI offerings, so I'm going to buy this EVGA 680i board that is being pimped everywhere. On top of that, I'll throw in a top-of-the-line X6800 Core 2 Extreme processor, 4GB's of Corsair 6400C4 (4-4-412) and a Dell 3007FPW to put the icing on the cake.

Yep, I love Nvidia. I spent ~$1,540 on just the GPU's and motherboard (certified by Nvidia to give the ultimate gaming experience). So, I imagine I'll get a lot of enjoyment out of this.

So I install everything correctly and load up some games turning on some nice IQ (8x all the way!!--since that is all the 8800GTX's in SLI can do). Right away I notice that performance seems weak. Also, my sound card makes strange crackling noises when I load up any game with SLI.

I quickly seek some help on the official Nvidia forums and find out that I need to upgrade my 750W PSU to a 1K watt PSU....duh....

Anyways, I also throw a different case into the mix since the new 1K PSU from PC Power & Cooling was too big for my other full-tower. Now, power shouldn't be an issue and cooling is just dandy with those 4x120MM fans over the GPU's and motherboard.

Oh....before I forget, I also had to return a G80 that suffered from...I don't know...that problem that was supposed to be fixed before they shipped them....something about a resistor and 68C....anyways....I found a 40C replacement....(the correct 'fixed' resistor)...

So, I slap everything together (again) and load up 3DMock...errr...Mark.....and ***poop sound*** it "crapped on my face."

I do a reinstall of XP and am getting alright 3DMark scores but the sound is still an issue and the only fix is to use a different PCI-E lane slot on the motherboard of which I have no way of connecting to anyway since it wouldn't match the SLI bridge EVGA's board provided me.

I've bought a car with no wheels and still have yet to drive it. After all of this money I still haven't had a note-worthy experience while gaming.

But, I'm a lucky one. I at least have XP-Pro 32-bit. So it could be worse.

Too far fetched? Click

So I agree with you, they should fix things with XP-Pro 32-bit. A lot of things.

 

[Gstanfor]

:disgust: :roll:
Believe what you want you pathetic fanatic...

BTW were you the one who impersonated ChrisRay here?

As sleazy as it gets...

 

[josh6079]

Believe what you want you pathetic fanatic...

I'm a fanatic for reflecting real user's issues? That user is doing exactly what Nvidia would like people to do and look at how well it is serving him so far. I know it's hard for you to accept the fact that Nvidia's drivers are pretty crappy right now, but wake up. Their products need to mature and the only thing that is going to let all of these peoples hardware get better is to improve the software governing it.

When ATi released new Catalyst versions that didn't support some of the newer X1950 products I made the same observations.

I know it kills you that some of the G80 owners are expressing dislike, but some do feel burned by your Golden Nvidia PR when they saw "Essential Vista" on the box.

BTW were you the one who impersonated ChrisRay here?

A.D.H.D. Where are you going now? First you try to argue that Nvidia doesn't need to support any other OS other than the upcoming Vista and XP-Pro 32-bit for their 8800 series and now you're wanting to paint me as some retarded impersonator on a completely different and unrelated forum?

G, tell me. What exactly is your argument here? I simply said that Nvidia's drivers need to improve and that they should add support for different operating systems. What exactly are you saying is wrong about that claim?

Besides your useless observation that XP-Pro 64-bit isn't common enough for you, what is argumentative about saying a product with little support should begin to become more supported?

 

[Gstanfor]

The Clown in your thread is merely suffering from a good dose of PEBKAC - of course that won't stop fanatics like yourself from trying to portray his experience as the norm - there are plenty of people with SLI 8800 setups and most of them don't suffer his problems!

I guess this is how the fanatics get their jollies nowadays... pathetic.

Yes, the drivers could be a little more mature than they are. Time will fix that.

 

[imported_RedStar]

One thing i have learned from this thread?

Josh6079 is the mirror image of Gstanfor ...only Josh6079 is coloured red.

Lighten up guys ..no one needs converting.

We can all wave green and red flags.

*hands out flags to everyone*

 

[Gstanfor]

Since when have I ever tried to convert anyone to nvidia???

I spend the majority of my time putting out fires lit by the fanatics...

If I am a fanboy of any company at all (which I'm not) it would be the now defunct Commodore, because of the 6502, C64 & Amiga (I only wish Tramiel hadn't been forced out of Commodore - under him the Amiga would have truly fulfilled its destiny).

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: jim1976

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
Odd for nvidia to drag their heels as you put it. But I have a little thought. Far fetched? Maybe, but here goes. Maybe nvidia is holding back intentionally. Why, you ask? Ok. Nvidia has released the last 2 gens well before ATI's corresponding gens. This gave ATI plenty of time to see how Nvidia hardware performed, and tweak their clocks and drivers and whatever, and do whatever they had to do to be competitive or just best nvidia's fps in games. It could be possible, some may not see it this way, but possible that nvidia is intentionally holding back and "dragging heels" to give DAAMIT a "false" sense of security with the G80's current performance with nvidia's latest driver offering. DAAMIT will do what they need to do to get their R600 just a scooch faster than current G80 performance for the R600's January debut, which is what ATI has done the last two gens. I think Nvidia likes to be first to market for obvious reasons, but there is the downside of letting your competition know exactly what they have to do to best it by being out first. So, put a grain of salt label on this theory if you desire, because it's just a few thoughts jotted down here in the forum.

Keys

Dunno Keys.. I don't like this theory though.
Because I chose this card instead of waiting to see what R600 has to offer basically for performance and IQ reasons. Now IF Nvidia CAN unlock the xS AA and the hybrid modes and they won't do it in the next series of drivers I will find this indimitating for the consumer. Why should I have to wait for R600 to play my older games with insane IQ settings? I can understand that they may want to keep an asset in their sleeve for R600 launch but this can be in the form of performance (madd+madd anyone? Ok this might be far stretched and I don't know if the second MADD instead of MUL is there and can be unlocked) and not IQ.

Well, since you already have a G80 that offers phenomenal performance and IQ, I would think you might be very happy if this theory holds any water. Why? Because free performance boosts (hopefully large ones) may be in your near future. And free performance is a good thing, yes? I know that if I owned a multibillion dollar graphics company, I might try "playing possum" if the occasion allows it. I think Nvidia can afford to do this right now because there is Zero answer from DAAMIT until January, unless R600 gets delayed further of course. And G80's can't be beat so there is really nothing else and enthusiast would buy at this point in time. Nvidia could also be doing the "possum" thing because they know how many people will be waiting for R600 to come out and will want to see the benches against G80. That is most likely (If the theory holds water) when Nvidia will release the killer drivers. Just days before the release of R600.

The thing is, a lot of people are getting emotionally attached to a company's business strategies and tactics. As long as you have the hardware, and it does what it's supposed to do and you're happy with it, why does anyone care how Nvidia and DAAMIT try to dupe each other? That is their business. (Not singling you out Jim, this post is for anyone.).

The Rage3d review seems like a decent one to most who have read it.