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R600 Delayed AGAIN!

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Originally posted by: nrb
Why is everyone on this forum always so angry? 🙁
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'cause there are different strong and opposing PoVs and each person is quite certain they are right ... and *cool* ... and the people with the opposing PoV are just *stupid* and "morons" and arguing "on purpose"

kinda like a HW P&N 😛

:roll:

ME?! .... i am not angry ... i just usually take the *unpopular* PoV to the extreme ... logically ... and that tends to irritate the hell out of people who don't like their "faith" questioned by a devil's advocate
:evil:

😀

Video is one of my 2 favourite sub-forums ... you can learn a LOT ... there are real gems of info hidden among the fluff and flames 😉
... and it appears that both nvidia and AMD are also interested in our views [even to "manipulating" them] ... we do get a lot of info we aren't "supposed to"
:Q
 
Originally posted by: Pugnate
Originally posted by: nrb
Why is everyone on this forum always so angry? 🙁
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Because our mommies don't love us. 🙁
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Our?!??
😕

*Your* mommy doesn't love you. 😛
:evil:

:brokenheart:

🙁


Speak for yourself

:heart:
rose.gif



😀
 
Unfortunately I'm just not buying the idea that they're holding back R600 so that they can do a top-to-bottom launch. If that were the case, what would be the logic in scheduling a major release party then having to cancel it? It just doesn't add up to me. I'm with apoppin on this one.

I understand the idea that ATI/AMD can't always be in a reactionary position as they were with the 7800/7900/x1800/x1900 generation, but I still don't believe that's a sound reason to delay the R600 launch if R600 competes well with G80. Look at it this way - at this point, ATI/AMD knows that nVidia is ready to respond to the R600 launch with new high end and midrange DX10 parts. That isn't going to change in the future just because ATI/AMD is launching a broader lineup.

In this situation, if R600 actually outperforms G80, ATI/AMD would launch it with or without the midrange parts because 1) R600 itself would eat into nVidia's high-end DX10 sales and 2) it would give midrange DX10 buyers a reason to wait for midrange R600 parts rather than jumping on nVidia midrange parts immediatly on launch. Sure, they'd be in a better position with a full lineup, but they're just not competing at all right now which is a serious, serious problem.

I guess what I'm saying is, bottom line I believe ATI/AMD would not have cancelled the launch if R600 were at least on par with G80. They are not competing AT ALL in the DX10 market and high-end DX9 market right now. They have nothing to lose by launching a better-performing part as quickly as possible even if nVidia immediatly responds with new high-end and midrange parts. I'm convinced that either they've found some kind of show-stopping bug or R600 just doesn't compete like they'd hoped at this point.
 
What kind of shaders is the R600 using? Vec4? Scalar? Last I checked (long time ago) we were talking about Vec4 shaders, is this still the case?
 
Originally posted by: SexyK
Unfortunately I'm just not buying the idea that they're holding back R600 so that they can do a top-to-bottom launch. If that were the case, what would be the logic in scheduling a major release party then having to cancel it? It just doesn't add up to me. I'm with apoppin on this one.

I understand the idea that ATI/AMD can't always be in a reactionary position as they were with the 7800/7900/x1800/x1900 generation, but I still don't believe that's a sound reason to delay the R600 launch if R600 competes well with G80. Look at it this way - at this point, ATI/AMD knows that nVidia is ready to respond to the R600 launch with new high end and midrange DX10 parts. That isn't going to change in the future just because ATI/AMD is launching a broader lineup.

In this situation, if R600 actually outperforms G80, ATI/AMD would launch it with or without the midrange parts because 1) R600 itself would eat into nVidia's high-end DX10 sales and 2) it would give midrange DX10 buyers a reason to wait for midrange R600 parts rather than jumping on nVidia midrange parts immediatly on launch. Sure, they'd be in a better position with a full lineup, but they're just not competing at all right now which is a serious, serious problem.

I guess what I'm saying is, bottom line I believe ATI/AMD would not have cancelled the launch if R600 were at least on par with G80. They are not competing AT ALL in the DX10 market and high-end DX9 market right now. They have nothing to lose by launching a better-performing part as quickly as possible even if nVidia immediatly responds with new high-end and midrange parts. I'm convinced that either they've found some kind of show-stopping bug or R600 just doesn't compete like they'd hoped at this point.
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Very well said and written, A+ ^ what he said above 😀

 
Originally posted by: Matt2
What kind of shaders is the R600 using? Vec4? Scalar? Last I checked (long time ago) we were talking about Vec4 shaders, is this still the case?
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That's all a bit confused at the moment. For a long time the rumours were for 64 vec4 shaders, with a few optimistic souls hoping for 80 or even 96. More recent rumours have suggested 128 shaders of som sort. But this is a weird figure. 128 scalar shaders would put R600 several miles behind G80, unless R600 also uses separate clock domains with very highly clocked shaders in the same way that G80 does. On the other hand, 128 Vec4 shaders, running at the suggested clock speed, ought to put it several miles ahead of G80 - unrealistically far ahead, IMO.

So basically, either there are multiple clock domains just like G80, or the 128 shaders story is rubbish. (Again, IMO).

 
I'm fairly confident the R600 will outperform the G80. Numerous sources have verified this (I know not concrete evidence, but reasonable to assume). I think they have indeed found a "showstopping" bug, which is why there is a sudden delay.

It makes no sense to have a launch party cancelled last minute because of performance issues. They would have known about the performance issues long ago before they scheduled the party. I'm putting my money on a hardware bug a la X1800.
 
Originally posted by: nrb
Originally posted by: Matt2
What kind of shaders is the R600 using? Vec4? Scalar? Last I checked (long time ago) we were talking about Vec4 shaders, is this still the case?
Click to expand...
That's all a bit confused at the moment. For a long time the rumours were for 64 vec4 shaders, with a few optimistic souls hoping for 80 or even 96. More recent rumours have suggested 128 shaders of som sort. But this is a weird figure. 128 scalar shaders would put R600 several miles behind G80, unless R600 also uses separate clock domains with very highly clocked shaders in the same way that G80 does. On the other hand, 128 Vec4 shaders, running at the suggested clock speed, ought to put it several miles ahead of G80 - unrealistically far ahead, IMO.

So basically, either there are multiple clock domains just like G80, or the 128 shaders story is rubbish. (Again, IMO).
Click to expand...

Actually, nobody really knows how R600 will perform regardless of the types of shaders it uses. It's not what you have most of the time, but how you use it I guess. Vec4 shaders supposedly can handle what? 4 shader ops per pass? Theoretically anyways. If I'm not using the right terminology, sue me. 😉

You know, I'm not going to speculate at all on this. It is what it is. Performance in the end is what matters. We shall see soon enough. Or will we?? 😕
 
Could DAAMIT be going down the tubes? Bankruptcy ahead? These delays are bad.. and now fighting nVidia and Intel at the same time. Anyone else notice.. very hard to get some of the nice, non-hdcp Radeons the 1800 and 1900 ones.. 1900XT, 1900XTX.. were they discontinued a while ago?

Motherboard makers may surprise us with boards ready to demo in a few weeks for AM2 plus, but more likely not until June.. could it be that DAAMIT is going to try to release the next generation of GPU's about the same time they will release the next generation of CPU's?? all very hush, hush.. but with the two fronts... it just seems something is up.

or... bye, bye AMD, DAAMIT!
 
I still think the 8800's released early not the R600's late, as evidenced by the ForceWare driver problems and lack of DX10 games.
And even as and nVIDIA guy, I don't count ATI out of anything yet. There's just not that much solid info out there to think that.
Who knows what caused the delay or what DAAMIT may surprise us with. If they don't have an offering come Crysis-time though.. well, fvck. 😱
That's when the 'games' (fig/lit) will begin.
 
Originally posted by: OAKside24
I still think the 8800's released early not the R600's late, as evidenced by the ForceWare driver problems and lack of DX10 games.
And even as and nVIDIA guy, I don't count ATI out of anything yet. There's just not that much solid info out there to think that.
Who knows what caused the delay or what DAAMIT may surprise us with. If they don't have an offering come Crysis-time though.. well, fvck. 😱
That's when the 'games' (fig/lit) will begin.
Click to expand...
The 8800 wasn't early. There's not even a need for a DX10 driver right now, and Vista driver issues are to be expected and are 100% understandable IMO.

ATI *is* ROYALLY messed up right now. They have to re-invent their flagship card, which will take a *long* time.

There was no need for Nvida *not* to release the 8800. It made them look very good in comparison to ATI.
 
Originally posted by: thestain
Could DAAMIT be going down the tubes? Bankruptcy ahead? These delays are bad.. and now fighting nVidia and Intel at the same time. Anyone else notice.. very hard to get some of the nice, non-hdcp Radeons the 1800 and 1900 ones.. 1900XT, 1900XTX.. were they discontinued a while ago?

Motherboard makers may surprise us with boards ready to demo in a few weeks for AM2 plus, but more likely not until June.. could it be that DAAMIT is going to try to release the next generation of GPU's about the same time they will release the next generation of CPU's?? all very hush, hush.. but with the two fronts... it just seems something is up.

or... bye, bye AMD, DAAMIT!
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Not down the tubes, but downtrodden, probably for at least the next year until they can regroup and come up with something interesting.

They may go into 'retirement' until the CPU/GPU combo chips are ready to go. It may actually be foolhearty to put much more effort into discreet graphics at this point. They need to figure out how to make a fast graphics setup that uses system RAM. It will probably involve a *massive* cache of some kind using some sort of new memory technology.
 
Originally posted by: apoppin
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: keysplayr2003
It's not what you have most of the time, but how you use it I guess.
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Oh man I hope apoppin doesn't read that. :lips:
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so you made *sure* i wouldn't notice 😛

and ...

Why?

😕
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You quoted a couple of people the other day and it merged them into something bizarre. :Q

I just thought you could have a field day with that one. 😛
 
Originally posted by: OAKside24
Who knows what caused the delay or what DAAMIT may surprise us with. If they don't have an offering come Crysis-time though.. well, fvck. 😱
That's when the 'games' (fig/lit) will begin.
Click to expand...
[/quote]

Company of Heroes and Supreme Commander are getting DX10 patches soon, and I think Silent Hunter 4 uses SM 4. So, we don't have that long to wait. 😉

 
Originally posted by: Nightmare225
Originally posted by: OAKside24
Who knows what caused the delay or what DAAMIT may surprise us with. If they don't have an offering come Crysis-time though.. well, fvck. 😱
That's when the 'games' (fig/lit) will begin.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Company of Heroes and Supreme Commander are getting DX10 patches soon, and I think Silent Hunter 4 uses SM 4. So, we don't have that long to wait. 😉

[/quote]
Is Supreme Commander even GPU limited tho? I read an interview with the developer which stated that the impact of the DX10 patch will be minimal. In fact, I'm not sure that DX10 can do anything visually that DX9 can't do; it's simply more efficient (to the point that it does allow more eye candy on the screen; as a still image I think it can only output the same thing tho).

There's no need for R600 yet. Crysis *will* be the game that pushes the envelope and drives everyone to Vista and DX10. That said, it will have a DX9 mode and will probably run ok on 1950s and such.
 
Originally posted by: SickBeast
Originally posted by: Nightmare225
Originally posted by: OAKside24
Who knows what caused the delay or what DAAMIT may surprise us with. If they don't have an offering come Crysis-time though.. well, fvck. 😱
That's when the 'games' (fig/lit) will begin.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Company of Heroes and Supreme Commander are getting DX10 patches soon, and I think Silent Hunter 4 uses SM 4. So, we don't have that long to wait. 😉
Click to expand...
Is Supreme Commander even GPU limited tho? I read an interview with the developer which stated that the impact of the DX10 patch will be minimal. In fact, I'm not sure that DX10 can do anything visually that DX9 can't do; it's simply more efficient (to the point that it does allow more eye candy on the screen; as a still image I think it can only output the same thing tho).

There's no need for R600 yet. Crysis *will* be the game that pushes the envelope and drives everyone to Vista and DX10. That said, it will have a DX9 mode and will probably run ok on 1950s and such.
[/quote]

DX10 is supposed to lift some overhead from the CPU which would benefit CPU limited games like SupCom.
 
Ok, This question is only that, a question. Im looking to upgrade my computer, actually not even upgrade, build my second rig, and by the looks of things, the market has changed quite a bit since i've built my last system. So here are my perceptions/questions:

Intel is now the gaming processor of choice over AMD 64 FX??? This is what surprised me the most as when i built my system ( even then it wasnt the best ) AMD clearly had the lead in gaming performance over Intel. If this is true when and what processors did Intel "take the lead"? Also if i was going to build a system NOW, what would be the the best MIDDLE and best HIGH END processor from Intel/AMD??? or just Intel?

Now this subject is a bit different. ATI and NVID have always been back and forth. I take it from the amount of people upset by ATI's delays that although there was strong competition between ATI and Nvidia, ATI might have been overall better? Now though it seems that Nvidia is kicking ATI's ass as well? Again ive only built one system, my current system and i too went with ATI, at the time i bought a ATI 9800Pro and upgraded some time ago so the ATI 1600Pro ( i still have an AGP board( it was my first comp build), dont laugh i plan to only upgrade only when i need to, but when i do upgrade it will be major 🙂

Anyways on my thoughts on why AMD/ATI has fallen behind, i think is because of their merge. Whenever companies merge it is always a mess, something always falls behind and i have confidence that they will pick up steam. I work for a company called Medtronic Minimed, MRG merged with Medtronic, and man it was such a mess, for i believe 2-4 years some product fell behind. WHy? people forget to realize that some people in a company have to PHYSICALLY be transferred to the new company, as well as equipment, supplies, etc...and look now, Medtronic is one of the leading companies in diabetic technologies. Maybe ATI/AMD are going through a similiar process?? I hope so, i really like supporting what in my eyes are the "underdogs" in this marketplace as Intel is known all over more so than AMD and same with Nvidia over ATI.
 
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