R580: Here by January and smoking 2 512 7800s in SLI

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

 

[apoppin]

nonsense, Rollo. ati has been competitive with nVidia in hi-performance gaming begining with the Rage chipset . . . they almost caught up with the 8500 and surpassed nVidia's best with the 9700p-9800p/xt;they ran 'even' with the 6800 series and only got behind this year.

and r580 is the same team that got out r300.
on time - again [evidently]

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: apoppin
nonsense, Rollo.

You could have stopped right there....

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

actually we haven't see the 'x1850xtpe' play out against the '7800gtx ultra' . . . could turn out to be even or even in ATI's favor . . . after all they can release a PE with 1GB vRAM
:Q

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

I'd actually say the X800/X850 series were better than the 6800 series as far as perfromance goes. After having both I'd rather game with the X850.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
nonsense, Rollo. ati has been competitive with nVidia in hi-performance gaming begining with the Rage chipset . . . they almost caught up with the 8500 and surpassed nVidia's best with the 9700p-9800p/xt;they ran 'even' with the 6800 series and only got behind this year.

and r580 is the same team that got out r300.
on time - again [evidently]

Sigh

Riva128>ATI
TNT1>ATI
TNT2>ATI
GF1>ATI
GF2>ATI
GF3>ATI
GF4>ATI
9700P>5800U
9800P>5900U
6800U=X800XT PE
6800SLI>X850XTPE
7800>ATI

Anyone with a memory knows what I said is true, anyone lacking in that dept. can reference old benches.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

I'd actually say the X800/X850 series were better than the 6800 series as far as perfromance goes. After having both I'd rather game with the X850.

The X850XTPE had marginally better performance than the 6800U at D3d, but:
It lost at Open GL
It lost at Linux
It lost at everything, by a LOT, when you SLId two 6800Us
It lost at EXR HDR as it had none
It lost at SM3 as it had none
It lost at soft stencil shadows as it had none

What did it have again? Oh yeah, marginally better D3d single card fps.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
nonsense, Rollo. ati has been competitive with nVidia in hi-performance gaming begining with the Rage chipset . . . they almost caught up with the 8500 and surpassed nVidia's best with the 9700p-9800p/xt;they ran 'even' with the 6800 series and only got behind this year.

and r580 is the same team that got out r300.
on time - again [evidently]

Sigh

Riva128>ATI
TNT1>ATI
TNT2>ATI
GF1>ATI
GF2>ATI
GF3>ATI
GF4>ATI
9700P>5800U
9800P>5900U
6800U=X800XT PE
6800SLI>X850XTPE
7800>ATI

Anyone with a memory knows what I said is true, anyone lacking in that dept. can reference old benches.

you should spin for the Bush whitehouse
[no one would believe you either]

ATI did not enter high performance GFX until Rage32. nVidia was a bit faster with the GeForceSDR and then more so with the DDR [what competed with the MAXX] but ati had much better IQ.

Radeon 64DDR briefly equaled nVidia's best until nVidia pulled ahead.

ATI then nearly caught up with radeon 8500 vs GF4 [definitely equaled the GF3] in speed yet continued to hold the IQ edge.

WITHin THREE years - from the day ATI began to compete [in hi end gfx] with nVidia - years the 9700p was out and ATI dominated - until THIS year and the 7800 series . . . and it STILL hasn't played out . . . the r520 may well edge out the 7800 series [or not].

 

[nRollo]

LOL I bet ATI would disagree with you on their attempts to be in the high end market.

You forget, I had all the cards I mentioned here.

For example, was the MAXXs IQ better when the textures were flashing like a strobe light, or just missing entirely?
(it kind of angers me you made me diss the MAXX- I really liked that card, as wacky as it was!)

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Rollo
LOL I bet ATI would disagree with you on their attempts to be in the high end market.

You forget, I had all the cards I mentioned here.

For example, was the MAXXs IQ better when the textures were flashing like a strobe light, or just missing entirely?
(it kind of angers me you made me diss the MAXX- I really liked that card, as wacky as it was!)

actually ATI made major announcements back in late '98 about entering the high-end market and restructuring their company AWAY from mass-market gfx. it was really clear that they wanted to take nvidia on.

You liked MAXX - or so you said . . . did you forget or do you like flashing and mixing textures?
:roll:

i said MAXX was a POS and an abortion that ati never lived down as they reneged on their promise to supporters . . . OTOH, the [fully functional] Rage Fury 32 had much nicer IQ than the GeForce SDR/DDR.

what surprised me is that it only took ATI a couple of years to equal nVidia's best and another year to blow them away and then HOLD that edge for another 3 years, hold on for another . . . and then stumble only this year.

with r580 evidently on schedule, it's nVidia's turn to worry [again]

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

I'd actually say the X800/X850 series were better than the 6800 series as far as perfromance goes. After having both I'd rather game with the X850.

The X850XTPE had marginally better performance than the 6800U at D3d, but:
It lost at Open GL
It lost at Linux
It lost at everything, by a LOT, when you SLId two 6800Us
It lost at EXR HDR as it had none
It lost at SM3 as it had none
It lost at soft stencil shadows as it had none

What did it have again? Oh yeah, marginally better D3d single card fps.

Touche Rollo, but most of the stuff on your list doesn't matter since, even though the 6800 series had the feature, they didn't utilize it well.

HDR for example. I tried that on my 6800GT@Ultra speeds and it chugged even at 1024x768 in FarCry.

SM3 gave a marginal performance boost to 6800 series cards but they still weren't as fast as the X800XT PE through X850XT PE cards.

Linux is important for about 5% of gaming enthusiasts I imagine (could be wrong). For those people the 6800 series cards were definetely the better choice.

Of course SLI'd 6800Ultras are going to be faster. If you're talking about no holds barred spending than they were the best but if you're talking about most people looking for a high-end graphics card than $1000 was simply out of the question.

OpenGl performance was subpar compared to Nvidia.

Don't know wuch about soft stencils so I can't comment there.

In my experience, my X850XT PE was about 15-20% faster than my 6800GT@Ultra speeds. That might be single digits in some situations, but most of the time it meant I could bump the resolution up a notch.

I will say the 6800GT was probably the best bang for the buck in its day, definetely a better choice than the X800Pro.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

I'd actually say the X800/X850 series were better than the 6800 series as far as perfromance goes. After having both I'd rather game with the X850.

i agree, i was just giving nV the benefit of the doubt

 

[mdchesne]

Originally posted by: Demoth
Some information is coming out about the R580 since the card has been up and running just fine (unlike the R520) for quite a while inside ATI's labs.

One thing known is the R580 has few production issues and it will actually cost quite a bit less for ATI to mass produce this card over the R520. The fact the card has no issues like the R520 and was actually ready for release and production well before the R520 means there will be little if any delay in the deadline and actual availability.

The team that designed the R580 was the one that did the 9700 pro which is a very good thing.

Rumored performance is a 150% increase over the R520 which means the R580 will get better FPS in a game like FEAR then 2 $700 7800 512 GTXs in SLI. The so called fat pipe technology is the reason for this performance though the card itself is still slated for only 16 pipes. If they decide to go 24 pipes, performance will be even higher, though it is unlikely in this generation.

The name is slated to be Rodin for this series.

Expect a price point of $600 by mid January for this card.

Nothing is confirmed, everything is rumor till actual testing is done, but considering we'll see samples sent and reviews within weeks and a good chance of availibility by January, it makes little sense to get a top end X1800XT or a 7800 GTX at this time.

such blatant remarks! Do you have proof of these exagerations? 150% increase over r520....seems a bit over the top doesn't it?

 

[Elfear]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

i agree, i was just giving nV the benefit of the doubt

Sometimes even the mighty Nvidia needs that sometimes.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Elfear

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

IMHO:

ATi>Nvidia in the 9XXX v 5XXX series
Ati = Nvidia in the x8XX v 6XXX series
Nvida > Ati in the x18XX v 7XXX series

but both companies, as of recent time, have been competitive (with the exception of ATi dropping the ball with r520)

I'd actually say the X800/X850 series were better than the 6800 series as far as perfromance goes. After having both I'd rather game with the X850.

The X850XTPE had marginally better performance than the 6800U at D3d, but:
It lost at Open GL
It lost at Linux
It lost at everything, by a LOT, when you SLId two 6800Us
It lost at EXR HDR as it had none
It lost at SM3 as it had none
It lost at soft stencil shadows as it had none

What did it have again? Oh yeah, marginally better D3d single card fps.

agree with openGL

but lets get practical shall we?

what percentanage of users use linux?
vs SLI? two cards priced much higher? fair comparison mate!
loses in HDR because it didnt have it? how can u lose in something you dont have
same goes for soft shadows and sm3.0

and the kicker: how many games were using HDR and sm3 at the time? riiiiight

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
nonsense, Rollo. ati has been competitive with nVidia in hi-performance gaming begining with the Rage chipset . . . they almost caught up with the 8500 and surpassed nVidia's best with the 9700p-9800p/xt;they ran 'even' with the 6800 series and only got behind this year.

and r580 is the same team that got out r300.
on time - again [evidently]

Sigh

Riva128>ATI
TNT1>ATI
TNT2>ATI
GF1>ATI
GF2>ATI
GF3>ATI
GF4>ATI
9700P>5800U
9800P>5900U
6800U=X800XT PE
6800SLI>X850XTPE
7800>ATI

Anyone with a memory knows what I said is true, anyone lacking in that dept. can reference old benches.

in my post, i specifically said recent times. who cares who was winning 10 years ago?

personally, i dont really care who won last generation. i'm concerned about THIS GEN and the upcoming gen

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
nonsense, Rollo. ati has been competitive with nVidia in hi-performance gaming begining with the Rage chipset . . . they almost caught up with the 8500 and surpassed nVidia's best with the 9700p-9800p/xt;they ran 'even' with the 6800 series and only got behind this year.

and r580 is the same team that got out r300.
on time - again [evidently]

Sigh

[who cares?]
GF1>ATI 1999
GF2>ATI
GF3=ATI
GF4>ATI
9700P>5800U2002
9800P>5900U
6800U<X850XT PE
[deleted]
7800>ATI2005
7800=x1800?

Anyone with a memory knows what I said is true, anyone lacking in that dept. can reference old benches.

in my post, i specifically said recent times. who cares who was winning 10 years ago?

personally, i dont really care who won last generation. i'm concerned about THIS GEN and the upcoming gen

that's why "i" started with late98 with ATI's release of Rage Fury32 . . . from THEN on, ATI was competitive with nVidia's best [usually slower GPUs but better IQ] until the 9700p when they dominated for 3 years then returned to being remained competitive - except this less-then-one year and now they are back competing with a new product in the wings.

let's keep it in perspective

fixed

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
but lets get practical shall we?

what percentanage of users use linux?

What percentage played Tomb Raider, Angel of Darkness, the only DX9 game out during the 9700Pros reign as the best DX9 card of the time?

vs SLI? two cards priced much higher? fair comparison mate!

Which doesn't change the fact that having the ability to SLI blows away NOT having it?

loses in HDR because it didnt have it? how can u lose in something you dont have
same goes for soft shadows and sm3.0

ATI lost by not having it. The reason we have this stuff in games now is because nV gave developers nV40s to work with.

and the kicker: how many games were using HDR and sm3 at the time? riiiiight

Not many- but see response above?

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: RaynorWolfcastle

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Cooler
Im glad i still have my x850. 2 months of r520 then r580 ATI must have planed this out to milk all the money they could out of r520.

i'm glad i still have my 9800xt . . .
. . . and of course they need to make their money back . . . should they just can x1800 series? it IS ready for Xmas . . . r580 is not.

. . . as long as there is a superFast GPU in AGP, i'm on it . . . r520 . . . r580 . . g70 . . . g80
:Q



And i don't know about this flame-title: smoking 2 512 7800s in SLI not likely accurate . . . traditionally, each flagship model is [realistically] about 50-100% faster than the preceeding one . . . that would make the "x1950xtpe" about as fast a Sli'd 256MB gtx.

and i seriously doubt the people that buy r520 now will upgrade [which is why i also doubt r580 is $150% faster than r520]

edited

i can wait to see . . . all my new PC games STILL play at 10x7
:thumbsup:

IMHO it's likely that the R580 will have 150% the performance of R520 (50% performance boost). This would come from... wait for it... wait for it... 24 pipes vs 16 pipes.

isn't that what i said?


and speculation is that there are still 16 [now "fat"] pipes for r580 . . . but it's still speculation.

The same speculation I expected for months alreaady. You all should really stop comparing cards pipe for pipe, because starting with the r520 this comparison is totally worthless. There's a reason Ati went with separete TMU's and pixel shaders - it will allow them to significantly increase the shader power of a card by adding more pixel shaders, and keeping the texture units the same, since most modern games rely heavily on pixel shaders. Also, it's arguably half way there to a unified shader architecture.

You can disbelieve me all you like, but forget about the 24 pipe deal on the r580. I'll stand by my theory that it will have 16 ROP's, 16 TMU's, and just more shaders per ROP than the r520. And seeing how the r520 is more competitive in newer games than older ones, the r580 should sweep all competition aside in modern games when it's launched.

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
but lets get practical shall we?

what percentanage of users use linux?


What percentage played Tomb Raider, Angel of Darkness, the only DX9 game out during the 9700Pros reign as the best DX9 card of the time?

wasnt it better in DX8 as well? i'm willing to wager that more people played those games that people gaming on linux anyway

vs SLI? two cards priced much higher? fair comparison mate!


Which doesn't change the fact that having the ability to SLI blows away NOT having it?

yeah, and a Ferrari is superior to a Honda. shouldnt we keep price in perspective here? single card versus dual card a fair comparison?

loses in HDR because it didnt have it? how can u lose in something you dont have
same goes for soft shadows and sm3.0


ATI lost by not having it. The reason we have this stuff in games now is because nV gave developers nV40s to work with.

i dont see how they lose when nobody is using it

and the kicker: how many games were using HDR and sm3 at the time? riiiiight


Not many- but see response above?

i dont see how it was relevant to performance for THAT GEN if it wasnt being used - see my response above?

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

So you're saying the 6800 series were better than the x850 series, even though the x850 beat the 6800's in most cases?

 

[Cookie Monster]

NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

So you're saying the 6800 series were better than the x850 series, even though the x850 beat the 6800's in most cases?

Three words:
6600GT and 6800GT

That is the reason why most consider NV winning or having the sligh edge over ATi during the 6 series and X series matchup.
S.M 3.0 and HDR was just icying on the cake.

You should account for the fact NV had the fastest solution in the form of a 6800U sli regardless of how expensive it was. Hence NV didnt release a refresh product i.e 6850/6900?

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

i agree with most of what you are saying but most people that i personally know choose to take the GTO over the 6800GS for the midrange market