R580: Here by January and smoking 2 512 7800s in SLI

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

i agree with most of what you are saying but most people that i personally know choose to take the GTO over the 6800GS for the midrange market

Agreed on that, i wonder when the 7600s comes in? The 6800 series are dead as production has been stopped i think. However, what ive heard well based on penstars article is that the new refresh products of the G70 core will be utilising 90nm lowk, HDR+AA, FX style AF. I like rumours

 

[Corporate Thug]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

i agree with most of what you are saying but most people that i personally know choose to take the GTO over the 6800GS for the midrange market

Agreed on that, i wonder when the 7600s comes in? The 6800 series are dead as production has been stopped i think. However, what ive heard well based on penstars article is that the new refresh products of the G70 core will be utilising 90nm lowk, HDR+AA, FX style AF. I like rumours

i'm very curious about the 7600 myself

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

Seems like you are taking the X8XX series cards out of the equation.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

Seems like you are taking the X8XX series cards out of the equation.

Well apart from X800GTOs, i dont see any significant role for the X series. MAybe the X800XL? but then a 6800GS performs almost on par with a X800XL according to rage3ds bench.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

So you're saying the 6800 series were better than the x850 series, even though the x850 beat the 6800's in most cases?

Three words:
6600GT and 6800GT

That is the reason why most consider NV winning or having the sligh edge over ATi during the 6 series and X series matchup.
S.M 3.0 and HDR was just icying on the cake.

You should account for the fact NV had the fastest solution in the form of a 6800U sli regardless of how expensive it was. Hence NV didnt release a refresh product i.e 6850/6900?

Ok I know the 6600gt was the best midrange card at the time (before the launch of the much delayed x800 vanilla, x800gt and x800gto), but what was so special about the 6800gt? It was slower than the x800xt, and was about on par with the x800xl. Nothing special about that.

Sm3 and HDR were more like checkbox features than actually useful things. Sm3 dynamic branching actually causes a performance penalty on the 6 and 7 series compared to static branching, and HDR was only playable at low res without AA.

SLI did have the "money is no object" performance crown, but I'm talking about an apples to apples comparison using single cards.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster

Originally posted by: munky

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
What exactly will NVIDIA ruin the r580 with? Don't overestimate their capabilities and underestimate ATI, the companies are evenly matched really.

nVidia has been stomping ATI for many years. ATIs good fortune to acquire ArtX and their IP doesn't make ATI all the sudden the premier GPU company.

They had ONE industry leading design, that they largely purchased.

nVidia has been churning out ATI killers for many years, and 3DFX was stomping them flat before that.

I'll put it this way:

I've been a computer gamer since 1988. Since the advent of 3d gaming with the Voodoo1 around 1997, around nine years ago, ATI has had the unarguably best card for about 18 months. If history teaches us anything, it's that ATI is a second or third tier company in the high end.

So you're saying the 6800 series were better than the x850 series, even though the x850 beat the 6800's in most cases?

Three words:
6600GT and 6800GT

That is the reason why most consider NV winning or having the sligh edge over ATi during the 6 series and X series matchup.
S.M 3.0 and HDR was just icying on the cake.

You should account for the fact NV had the fastest solution in the form of a 6800U sli regardless of how expensive it was. Hence NV didnt release a refresh product i.e 6850/6900?

Ok I know the 6600gt was the best midrange card at the time (before the launch of the much delayed x800 vanilla, x800gt and x800gto), but what was so special about the 6800gt? It was slower than the x800xt, and was about on par with the x800xl. Nothing special about that.

Sm3 and HDR were more like checkbox features than actually useful things. Sm3 dynamic branching actually causes a performance penalty on the 6 and 7 series compared to static branching, and HDR was only playable at low res without AA.

SLI did have the "money is no object" performance crown, but I'm talking about an apples to apples comparison using single cards.

X800pro.

And you cant really judge who won the round based on apple to apple compraisons because competition aint that fair.

 

[ElFenix]

this front page article has to be the worst news rollo has heard all month.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
AT has their RD580 preview up, ATI is going to be owning the overclockers and high-end graphics titles if nV has nothing better than their current flagship offerings out at that time.

That's the funny thing... nVidia has PLEANTY of time to work on new things.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Why do you people keep jumping the gun? You jumped the gun on some malasian benchmarks saying the X1800 series would perform 65464222 x10^100 better than nVidia's best...yet the majority of reviews I've seen say nVidia wins....(Note: I said Majority....but reviews are all over the place...some place the x1800XT well ahead, and well behind.)

I wouldn't say sanything about the G80 or the R580 until you actually see reviews with NON GOLDEN SAMPLE products of both. Debating on how this will destroy anything the other has to offer...is pointless. If the R580 does not succeed, ATI will be in even deeper waters...but nVidia will be fine. If ATI does well, they'll force nVidia's hand into pushing out the next card. Pissing off all people who have just bought 7800s/x1800s which won't be good. Can we stick to getting new generation hardware every year, and not half year? Please?

 

[BenSkywalker]

I hope the R580 ends up shipping in January then some of the delusional fanatics can admit that the 1800xt was, without a doubt, ATi's 'NV30'.

One thing makes me seriously doubt these rumors are close to being true- ATi is planning on a phantom edition of the 1800xt right now- what sense would that make if they have a board ready to counter nV right around the corner?

ATI was competitive with nVidia's best [usually slower GPUs but better IQ]

'Better IQ'.... is that your way of saying 'absolute @ss'? I owned almost all of the ATi parts from that time era and they were utterly horrible IQ wise in anything 3D- vastly inferior to nV, Matrox and even 3Dfx.

 

[Steelski]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER
AT has their RD580 preview up, ATI is going to be owning the overclockers and high-end graphics titles if nV has nothing better than their current flagship offerings out at that time.

That's the funny thing... nVidia has PLEANTY of time to work on new things.

Yes....Yes it does.
If the X1800XT was released on time...............please oh please tell me who would have had the crown for the past 6 months......
Silly Jeff.
We would all be sitting here wondering how the GTX got beat in almost everything.
I hardly think that ATI did nothing to increase the performance to this next gen. just like i think that Nvidia has not been standing around. But i can hardly see the GTX would have dominated anything if the R520 was there.
Does anyone watch Formula 1 here. I gues if you did you would have seen Michael Shumacher loose his crown this year. Because of a crappy car..... From mid season when hopes were nearly dashed, Ferrari stopped any real development on their car and just went with the flow. guess why.
i am betting that they will still be the team to beat next year (according to new world champ) because their development program will not have stopped for the next car.

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
I hope the R580 ends up shipping in January then some of the delusional fanatics can admit that the 1800xt was, without a doubt, ATi's 'NV30'.

In terms of availability,pricing and launch date yes. In terms of performance? Hell no...
NV3x was a total failure

 

[BenSkywalker]

NV30 wasn't a performance failure. Remember when looking at the benches to compare nV's Balanced to ATi's High Quality- that isn't quite fair as even the R9700Pro's highest quality setting isn't comparable to the NV30's. It fell down and choked on titles that used a lot of DX9 shaders. The X1800XT occasionaly gets obliterated too. In that title ATi's latest and greatest is getting throttled by the 7800GT- by almost 50%.

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
NV30 wasn't a performance failure. Remember when looking at the benches to compare nV's Balanced to ATi's High Quality- that isn't quite fair as even the R9700Pro's highest quality setting isn't comparable to the NV30's. It fell down and choked on titles that used a lot of DX9 shaders. The X1800XT occasionaly gets obliterated too. In that title ATi's latest and greatest is getting throttled by the 7800GT- by almost 50%.

Ben cmon man are we serious here? Do you compare NV3x vs R3xx performance in comparison to R5xx vs 78xx? What is the exception of the rule here was a common situation back then in DX9 performance... Don't forget that ATI might bring a PE in the scene to compete with 512mbGTX..
I do agree that R52xx series is a failure in every other factor taken into account. But certainly not in performance..

 

[Heinrich]

This thread smacks of SERIOUS geekdom!

Why do you guys argue about 2 graphics companies and what they produced a year or two ago?

I don't get it

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin
i said MAXX was a POS and an abortion that ati never lived down as they reneged on their promise to supporters . . . OTOH, the [fully functional] Rage Fury 32 had much nicer IQ than the GeForce SDR/DDR.

:| Damnit, stop dissing the MAXX, I doubt you even had one. The MAXX was as cool of a card as ever graced a motherboard, and it's problems may detract from that, but don't eliminate how good of a concept it really was. :|
The fact that ATI took a product that was inferior to it's competitor, fused two to a motherboard and said "AFR for everyone" was ahead of it's time and a very cool idea to buy time for development of the 7500.

what surprised me is that it only took ATI a couple of years to equal nVidia's best and another year to blow them away and then HOLD that edge for another 3 years, hold on for another . . . and then stumble only this year.

You are totally exaggerating this. Since the introduction of the nV40 it's been the card developers work with, and technicallly far superior to the R300 re-tread the R420 was/is. At most, ATI was arguably "better" for two years, not three, because as much as you ATI fans want to discount SLI- it's introduction made every ATI product look like a slow, primitive POS. No one in their right mind would have preferred a X850XTPE over 6800GT SLI, most just didn't want to pony up for the better graphics.

with r580 evidently on schedule, it's nVidia's turn to worry [again]

FUD. You have no clue what nVidia has waiting to compete with the R580, for all you know they'll be taking first turn in the game of roshambo

 

[jim1976]

Originally posted by: Heinrich

This thread smacks of SERIOUS geekdom!

Why do you guys argue about 2 graphics companies and what they produced a year or two ago?

I don't get it

Welcome to VIDEO forums
Now have a

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: Corporate Thug
sorry, the 7800GTX 512 is not a new chip. they clocked the g70 higher and added faster memory. will all due respect to nvidia, they made a great product but it didnt require them to do much work so i was fairly easy for them to "push out" these new cards

It depends on your definition of "new chip". It is _not_ the same exact die as the GTX256. It has different thermal (pardon, "power") characteristics, and is _not_ compatible with the GTX256 in SLI. Is it vastly different? No, not at all. Is it a different chip? Yes.

More info:
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphi...14/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx_512-05.html

-Erwos

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: Heinrich

This thread smacks of SERIOUS geekdom!

Why do you guys argue about 2 graphics companies and what they produced a year or two ago?

I don't get it

Winner! Enlightenment has been reached. There is nothing to get, you have figured out the million dollar question! "What is the bloody point?!?"

Oh, dyslexia can be comical. I saw "GeForce SDR/DDR" and had to go back and reread it. My brain thought it said GeForce SURRENDER. Oops.

 

[Griswold]

Page 5 and the idiot counter is already off-scale. Well done. :evil:

 

[BenSkywalker]

What is the exception of the rule here was a common situation back then in DX9 performance...

Anand benched all but one of the available DX9 games in that review. All none of them. I posted links to the actual benches- the NV3X is remember for being horribly slow in a game you couldn't pay me to complete(TR:AoD) and another game that wouldn't show up for a very long time after its release(HL2). In games around when it came out it was extremely competitive.

Don't forget that ATI might bring a PE in the scene to compete with 512mbGTX..

I already mentioned they were planning a phantom edition. I think of that as akin to the watercooled NV30 that nV ended up with on the market.

I do agree that R52xx series is a failure in every other factor taken into account. But certainly not in performance..

The NV30 was only a failure in performance running DX9 games and they weren't around at the time. Now we have DX9 games and both the R3x0 and the NV3x are both unplayable using DX9 level settings- just the R3x0 is 'less unplayable' then the NV30

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
NV is dominating the low to high end markets if you guys havent noticed. Its NOT all about the high end you know.

6600 series beats the X1300 series for the low end.
6800GS demolishes the X1600XT in mid end.
The 7800GTX 512mb owns the X1800XT, and although priced higher, MANY more people are buying it due to their own reasons e.g fanboyism, money isnt a problem, must have the fastest card no matter price etc.

The high end owned by NV, due to cheap 7800GTs, Cheap 7800GT Sli configs, 7800GTXs that had the high end market for 4 months to itself etc.

What is there more to ask about this gen apart from ATi trying to recovers its losses? Even with the R580 releases, its not helping the mid nor the low end where ATi is getting thrashed. By the time Crossfire is available to X1 series, i wouldnt be surprised if there is SLi2 being released.

What i am interested is the mid end. The X1600XT is getting pwned, and i wonder how a 7600GT will perform against it. Since NV is utilising 90nm lowk, would be awesome if the GT was clocked up to 600mhz at maybe 12 pipelines since the 7800GS is a 16 pipe card.

Wrong.

Nvidia blows Christmas market

Retail sites across the UK are rapidly running out of the AGP flavour of the 6800 with no sign of any replacement.

This is a crucial time of year for retailers - the run up to Christmas often accounts for as much as half of annual turnover. For Nvidia to leave such a gaping hole in its product line is likely to be disastrous for its Q4 profits. And, just as importantly, leave ATI with the mid to high-range AGP market all to itself.

While Nvidia plugged some of the gap left by the PCIe 6800 by launching its GS version, there is no sign of any replacement for the AGP version. That leaves Nvidia with nothing above the 6600GT for the AGP market.

This begs the questions of whether it misjudged the market by ending production too soon or if there are production problems. As Nvidia has proven reluctant to return our calls about this situation, it is obviously something of an embarrassment to the firm. It remains to be seen how much of an embarrassment it will be for the firm's bottom line.

The only other reason for this happening would be if it had a new product waiting in the wings. The only possibilities would be the 6800GS which seems unlikely as it would have been announced at the same time as the PCIe version; or a 7600 which is even less likely.

------------------------

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: apoppin
i said MAXX was a POS and an abortion that ati never lived down as they reneged on their promise to supporters . . . OTOH, the [fully functional] Rage Fury 32 had much nicer IQ than the GeForce SDR/DDR.

:| Damnit, stop dissing the MAXX, I doubt you even had one. The MAXX was as cool of a card as ever graced a motherboard, and it's problems may detract from that, but don't eliminate how good of a concept it really was. :|
The fact that ATI took a product that was inferior to it's competitor, fused two to a motherboard and said "AFR for everyone" was ahead of it's time and a very cool idea to buy time for development of the 7500.

what surprised me is that it only took ATI a couple of years to equal nVidia's best and another year to blow them away and then HOLD that edge for another 3 years, hold on for another . . . and then stumble only this year.

You are totally exaggerating this. Since the introduction of the nV40 it's been the card developers work with, and technicallly far superior to the R300 re-tread the R420 was/is. At most, ATI was arguably "better" for two years, not three, because as much as you ATI fans want to discount SLI- it's introduction made every ATI product look like a slow, primitive POS. No one in their right mind would have preferred a X850XTPE over 6800GT SLI, most just didn't want to pony up for the better graphics.

with r580 evidently on schedule, it's nVidia's turn to worry [again]

FUD. You have no clue what nVidia has waiting to compete with the R580, for all you know they'll be taking first turn in the game of roshambo

Strange . . . you pick the worst garbage ATI ever produced - the MAXX - and claim you liked it . . . that says a lot about you and ati.

r300 DOMINATED the competition . . . that is FACT . . . you are the anti-ati "FUD master" and can SPIN all you want.
:thumbsdown:

and we DO know what nVidia has to compete with r580 . . . g80 [not fud]. . . they STILL have to make the transition to .90nm for their high-end parts . . . perhaps everything will go smoothly . . . maybe not.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker
NV30 wasn't a performance failure. Remember when looking at the benches to compare nV's Balanced to ATi's High Quality- that isn't quite fair as even the R9700Pro's highest quality setting isn't comparable to the NV30's. It fell down and choked on titles that used a lot of DX9 shaders.

Hell yeah it was. Not only was it slower, but it's IQ was severely compromised by optimizations. It doesnt matter that it used angle-independent AF when the mip map transitions were done with brilinear filtering, and lowered LOD. Only in "application" mode did the 5800u do high quality filtering, and the performance suffered accordingly.
Text
And dont forget the low precision shader hacks
Text

The X1800XT occasionaly gets obliterated too. In that title ATi's latest and greatest is getting throttled by the 7800GT- by almost 50%.

The x1800xt also gets beaten by an x850 - that tells me it's a driver problem, not that the hardware cant perform well. And if you're gonna go with the IQ route, then by those standards the 7800 should be a total failure also, since it does not offer angle-independent AF? And dont forget the occasional shimmering and blocky shadows as well.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Hell yeah it was. Not only was it slower, but it's IQ was severely compromised by optimizations. It doesnt matter that it used angle-independent AF when the mip map transitions were done with brilinear filtering, and lowered LOD. Only in "application" mode did the 5800u do high quality filtering, and the performance suffered accordingly.
Text

Word of advice- you may want to read the articles you link to-

When in the ?Aggressive? mode, GeForce FX shows perceptible texture compression artifacts, but they are nothing compared to what ATI RADEON 9700 PRO shows in the ?Speed? mode: besides forced compression, the graphics chip greatly reduces the level of textures detail. All this results in a wild-looking ?slush?.

And if you're gonna go with the IQ route, then by those standards the 7800 should be a total failure also, since it does not offer angle-independent AF?

No sh!t, you can find me saying exactly that dozens of times at the very least on these boards. BFG and I had a monster thread arguing about it a little while ago and it is the reason I have been waiting for x1800xls to come out in Crossfire flavor which is also something I have noted dozens of times at least on these forums. I call them like I see them- I am nothing like the one sided person you see when you look in the mirror.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Hell yeah it was. Not only was it slower, but it's IQ was severely compromised by optimizations. It doesnt matter that it used angle-independent AF when the mip map transitions were done with brilinear filtering, and lowered LOD. Only in "application" mode did the 5800u do high quality filtering, and the performance suffered accordingly.
Text

Word of advice- you may want to read the articles you link to-

When in the ?Aggressive? mode, GeForce FX shows perceptible texture compression artifacts, but they are nothing compared to what ATI RADEON 9700 PRO shows in the ?Speed? mode: besides forced compression, the graphics chip greatly reduces the level of textures detail. All this results in a wild-looking ?slush?.

And if you're gonna go with the IQ route, then by those standards the 7800 should be a total failure also, since it does not offer angle-independent AF?

No sh!t, you can find me saying exactly that dozens of times at the very least on these boards. BFG and I had a monster thread arguing about it a little while ago and it is the reason I have been waiting for x1800xls to come out in Crossfire flavor which is also something I have noted dozens of times at least on these forums. I call them like I see them- I am nothing like the one sided person you see when you look in the mirror.

I did read the article, actually. I'm not a supporter of the "speed" setting on the 9700p either, because if you're gonna enable and test eye candy, it has to be the best IQ the card can render. But with the "quality" setting, the 9700p looks better than either Nv's "balanced" or "aggressive"

It takes a pretty one sided person to to claim the superiority of the NV30, or to dismiss it's shortcomings.