Quartet may recognize Palestinian State in September.

[Lemon law]

An interesting contention Common Courtesy but not a deal breaker. The PA is on record as stating they prefer a mutually agree solution.

But the huge bulk of the world now firmly agree that its Israel that is stalling, and now we are dealing with a 9/2011 deadline.

Bozo Netanyuhu thought he was tremendously clever when he refused to extend the settlement freeze. And thus in 10/2010 both collapsed peace talks and humiliated Obama. And now a full seven months later ole Bozo Netanyuhu finds he has only screwed Israel, as he has wasted seven months of negotiating time, and now will be damn lucky to end up with Olmert could have gotten.

In short Common Courtesy, Israel is running out of cards to play. But there is one more throw of the dice, but Obama and not Israeli will roll those dice within the next 30 days.
And then the next question may be, will Netanyuhu be able to maintain its grip on power, or will the more rational Kadima party take over?

But after an overlong 44 year Israeli military occupation, the Israeli delusion is they can stall it out any longer. As the other Israeli delusion becomes, that the Israel that maintains nothing but contempt and hostility to all its Arab neighbors, is any way any longer useful to the mid-east or any other nation on the planet.

Of course Israel had at least 40 years to change that present condition, and perhaps Israel blew its last chance at Annapolis. And now in terms of Iran, Israeli posturing does much to help the credibility of Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and even Syria. And a Palestinian State can only weaken those four plus reduce reduce over all mid-east terrorism

But now its maybe time to admit neither I or various Israeli fan clubbers on this forum will in no way change the final outcome. But it very much looks like 2011 will finally be the year where we will see a Palestinian State.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Israel knew that extending the freeze would not accomplish anything.

the Palestinians did not show up for 9 months of the freeze.

Had Israel done another freeze, the Palestinians would have found another objection.

The Wikileaks showed it that they had no intentions of coming to the table.

The issue is not if there will be a Palestinian state.

The issue is who will run the Palestinian state and will the state be responsible.
Two sides claim power; does one side have the ability to control the other. Does one side want to enforce it's rules on the other.

 

[Lemon law]

As Common Courtesy endless repeats another lie no one any longer believes.

The stated nine month Israeli settlement freeze was never real, as Israeli kept on building in other areas of the disputed territory.

The same trick Israel, in its very clearly stated internal policy has been using for 44 long years.

Riddle me this Common Courtesy, why should Israel have a right to build on land it can never own? As not one nation on earth, recognizes or believes Israeli has any permanent right to retain land by conquest that is a founding bedrock principle of the UN? But as long as Israeli maintains its overlong military occupation, Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank is almost complete, as Israeli control ends up embargoing any Palestinian economy.

As soon as there is a Palestinian State with recognized borders, the Israeli army and its complete control of the occupied territory will have to retreat back to Israeli 1967 borders. Finally putting Palestinians in control of their own borders, economy, and destinies.

All you do Common Courtesy is tell the same lies of A. Lieberman the corrupt settler party leader who maintains, the Palestinians will never be ready for their own State. And noble Israel thus has to assume the white man's burden. While Israel makes it a self fulfilling prophesy by keeping the Palestinians in squalor and poverty while Israel enriches themselves using Palestinian land they stole.

Do you have some more revisionist history lies to tell to this forum. Basic crapola that went out of style over a 100 years ago.

The Israeli delusion is that if they only talk to themselves, the rest of the world will be in agreement. After 44 years of saying Israeli is in favor of a Palestinians State, that lie wears thinner and thinner, as Israel talks the talk, while settling and settling, but never actually match talk with action.

Yep Common Courtesy, you and Israel have a million reasons for inaction so they can avoid that Palestinian State. And thus can maintain a phony military occupation they illegally build on.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As Common Courtesy endless repeats another lie no one any longer believes.

The stated nine month Israeli settlement freeze was never real, as Israeli kept on building in other areas of the disputed territory. --- ok so lets see if I get this correct....if somebody built a front porch on their property then they would be in violation of the settlement freeze...lol...your just too much....actually you have no definative proof that they violated the settlement freeze during those 9 monts and don`t say you have a link because we know you couldn`t provide a link to your last claim....

The same trick Israel, in its very clearly stated internal policy has been using for 44 long years. -- would you please once again refer to the link about Israel`s internal policy.....

Riddle me this Common Courtesy, why should Israel have a right to build on land it can never own? --who says??As not one nation on earth, recognizes or believes Israeli has any permanent right to retain land by conquest that is a founding bedrock principle of the UN? -- again you cannot prove that not one nation on earth believes...more convoluted dribble...But as long as Israeli maintains its overlong military occupation, Israeli control of Gaza and the West Bank is almost complete, as Israeli control ends up embargoing any Palestinian economy. ---awwwww....Palestinians are their own worse enema...

As soon as there is a Palestinian State with recognized borders, the Israeli army and its complete control of the occupied territory will have to retreat back to Israeli 1967 borders. Finally putting Palestinians in control of their own borders, economy, and destinies. -- you really are delusional........

All you do Common Courtesy is tell the same lies of A. Lieberman the corrupt settler party leader who maintains, the Palestinians will never be ready for their own State. And noble Israel thus has to assume the white man's burden. While Israel makes it a self fulfilling prophesy by keeping the Palestinians in squalor and poverty while Israel enriches themselves using Palestinian land they stole. -- again it`s all Israel` s fault....the Palestinian`s and Hamas and all the other groups that Hamas says it cannot control are all innocent...rofl...

Do you have some more revisionist history lies to tell to this forum. Basic crapola that went out of style over a 100 years ago. --- sounds like you are talking about All your your predictions and mis-interpretation of history...

The Israeli delusion is that if they only talk to themselves, the rest of the world will be in agreement. After 44 years of saying Israeli is in favor of a Palestinians State, that lie wears thinner and thinner, as Israel talks the talk, while settling and settling, but never actually match talk with action. -- again your so blinded by the fact that the palestinians are their own worse enema that you have to try to make this all israel`s fault!!

Yep Common Courtesy, you and Israel have a million reasons for inaction so they can avoid that Palestinian State. And thus can maintain a phony military occupation they illegally build on.

WoW!!! I heard your parents had dinner with Mahmoud Abbas last night at his palatial retreat in the Gaza....

 

[EagleKeeper]

The settlement freeze conditions were exactly what Abbas requested. The Palestinians never complained about the conditions of the freeze until they started to have egg on their faces for not showing up to the table. The problem was the Palestinians never thought that Israel would agree to anything; therefore they were unable to handle waht was given.

Again, LL is a standard Palestinian supporter. They want every i dotted and every t crossed in the proper ink for anythign to have value; What the intentions are do not matter until after they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar.

Completely ignoring the fact that Abbas never showed to the table because he DID NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY to be there.

The settlements are an excuse, not a reason.

 

[Lemon law]

Once again, JediY, as a totally shameless liar with no basis, claims my parents are Palestinian and I own a condominium in Gaza.

Well if JediY believes his own drivel, we in this forum can safely dismiss all claims of JediY rationality. As JediY lives in his own little fantasy world safe from the intrusion of any sort of reality.

What new revelations will you come up with, as the world wrestles with real questions without bothering to consult me or JediY.

I mean who do you think you can convince, do you really think even if owned a fictional condo in Gaza, that it would change a single mind? As you revert to the debate tactics of hucksters, scoundrels, and liars.

I do not expect you, JediY, to agree with my read of the present Israeli position, but what will you do if I am proved right in the end?

Dare I hope you will upgrade me to having the God like status of having two horns and a tail? As I single highhandedly lead all the forces of evil. As I become all powerful. But If I can achieve that level of fame, why should I waste any time educating a no body idiot like JediY for free? I think its would be best to leave you wallowing in shock, as will I go on lucrative book tours just like Sarah Palin. And then you can pay to read my other predictions by paying like everyone else.

But psst, JediY, if you pay me enough, I will do my level best to reincarnate Nixon and Begin, as for Mubarack, I will rehabilitate him so he he can be once again be the dictator of Egypt. But it sure won't be cheap for you. After all I can't sell my non existent condo in Gaza. But you JediY will seemingly believe anything including your own drivel and lies.

As over 130 nations are already willing to vote for a Palestinian State. And all that was accomplished without my voice in any high level national debates.

 

[JEDIYoda]

As over 130 nations are already willing to vote for a Palestinian State. And all that was accomplished without my voice in any high level national debates.

please use a link to back up your assumptions.....thx

 

[Lemon law]

please use a link to back up your assumptions.....thx

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A week ago I could have found dozens of sucvh links on the pages of Haaretz, but that 130 level majority of countries in support Palestinian State was already achieved months ago,

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=218011

Its only the USA preventing far more sterner measures being taken against Israel.

But for now Obama has one more chance in May, to find a better road map to a Palestinian State. Failing that the world is almost certain to vote to vote for a Palestinian State in September, and then the fats in the fire if the US is again the only country to veto it. Because the world is almost certain to declare its opposition to the Obama foreign policy in the mid-east. After all, The USA cannot claim to be a leader when no one is following its lead. As the choice is now starkly binary, the US can no longer pander to Israel without losing ALL Arab support.

But JediY, this has been on mainstream news for at least a month, what rock have you been hiding under if I have to point it out to you?

 

[EagleKeeper]

What real Arab support is needed. What do the Arab nations have to offer us politically that is needed. Economically, they can not afford to cut us off.

They are the ones that back the terror groups of Hamas/Hezbollah.

Right now the Arab goups that you pander to, are falling all over themselves for US to smack Libya because they are to scared to do it themselves. Arab vs Arab on the front page is not a nice thing to see. The US again is being asked to act like the world's policeman to do the dirty work that others do not want to get dirty with.

IF Obama had the guts to play hardball; he could easily force the Arab bloc to put up or shut up.

If they want our help; ALL support to Hamas financialy must stop. Then the Palestinians can come to the table on their own without being made a puppet.

 

[glenn1]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A week ago I could have found dozens of sucvh links on the pages of Haaretz, but that 130 level majority of countries in support Palestinian State was already achieved months ago,

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=218011

Its only the USA preventing far more sterner measures being taken against Israel.

But for now Obama has one more chance in May, to find a better road map to a Palestinian State. Failing that the world is almost certain to vote to vote for a Palestinian State in September, and then the fats in the fire if the US is again the only country to veto it. Because the world is almost certain to declare its opposition to the Obama foreign policy in the mid-east. After all, The USA cannot claim to be a leader when no one is following its lead. As the choice is now starkly binary, the US can no longer pander to Israel without losing ALL Arab support.

But JediY, this has been on mainstream news for at least a month, what rock have you been hiding under if I have to point it out to you?

Oh. My. God. The world may vote for a Palestinian state. That will certainly teach those Israelis. They must be terrified.

 

[Freshgeardude]

i think you stated the 130 they had was well enough to declar statehood, so why would they wait?

why not do what the israelis did (in 1948 when the mandate ended), and declare a state right now?

what is stopping them, more than just a publicity stunt?


I have a feeling, come september, they will not declare the state and point the finger at israel being the reason.

then israel will say "you want a state, we want to talk"

and then more blabber for a while.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=217969

Israel is already drafting plans to get rid of the oslo accords, which by the way, both sides signed, agreeing that

“A Palestinian declaration of statehood would officially bury the Oslo Accords, which state that final borders will be decided via negotiations and that unilateral actions constitute violation of the accords,” Danon said. “The Palestinians declaring a state would free us of all the diplomatic, security, and economic commitments we made in the Oslo Accords.”

so if the PA calls a state, they officially broke the promise with israel, then israel can do as it chooses, which includes annexation

 

[lupi]

i think you stated the 130 they had was well enough to declar statehood, so why would they wait?

why not do what the israelis did (in 1948 when the mandate ended), and declare a state right now?

what is stopping them, more than just a publicity stunt?


I have a feeling, come september, they will not declare the state and point the finger at israel being the reason.

then israel will say "you want a state, we want to talk"

and then more blabber for a while.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=217969

Israel is already drafting plans to get rid of the oslo accords, which by the way, both sides signed, agreeing that



so if the PA calls a state, they officially broke the promise with israel, then israel can do as it chooses, which includes annexation

to annex territory would imply they don't already own it.

 

[Freshgeardude]

to annex territory would imply they don't already own it.

well in the technical sense, they rule over it, but have given some of the responsibilities to the PA.

this would mean they take over it completely.


Remember, when making the peace treaty with egypt, and the one with jordan, both nations gave up claims to gaza and the west bank respectively.

so israel, who already ruled over the land, because they had won it in war, simply kept it while the nations who previously had the land did not want it anymore.

 

[Lemon law]

Yes FGD, I already saw that link today om jpost.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=217969

But if you read the somewhat finer print following the link, what Israel proposes would be totally ridiculous yet what the Israeli sponsors hope is that the ridiculous will displace a far more legitimate idea.

First, of all that Israeli proposal would not only violate every UN principle, but would be truly unilateral on only the part of Israel. And if Israel tries it, its almost certain the entire international community would respond with an total Israeli economic embargo. So I strongly doubt that such a plan could even make it through the Kennit. But still, FGD, its only goes to show how delusional the extremist settler parties have become.

The Palestinian proposal on the other hand is to seek majority UN support, and would only be used should Obama not have the courage to simply abstain from again supporting only Israel in what becomes an international mid-east debate. And then the Palestinian State would be declared not by the PA, but rather by the united UN.

I hope that points out the false equivalence to you, FGD.

But its still somewhat of a sign, that a few extremists in Israeli are now just grasping at insubstantial straws. Because straws is all extremists in Israel still have.

Obama has warned Netanyuhu that US support of Israel is not unlimited, but still Obama may be preparing to lay out its last plan. So until Obama lays out his plan, the 9/2011 deadline may or may not be pushed back some.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Yes FGD, I already saw that link today om jpost.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=217969

But if you read the somewhat finer print following the link, what Israel proposes would be totally ridiculous yet what the Israeli sponsors hope is that the ridiculous will displace a far more legitimate idea.

First, of all that Israeli proposal would not only violate every UN principle, but would be truly unilateral on only the part of Israel. And if Israel tries it, its almost certain the entire international community would respond with an total Israeli economic embargo. So I strongly doubt that such a plan could even make it through the Kennit. But still, FGD, its only goes to show how delusional the extremist settler parties have become.

The Palestinian proposal on the other hand is to seek majority UN support, and would only be used should Obama not have the courage to simply abstain from again supporting only Israel in what becomes an international mid-east debate. And then the Palestinian State would be declared not by the PA, but rather by the united UN.

I hope that points out the false equivalence to you, FGD.

But its still somewhat of a sign, that a few extremists in Israeli are now just grasping at insubstantial straws. Because straws is all extremists in Israel still have.

Obama has warned Netanyuhu that US support of Israel is not unlimited, but still Obama may be preparing to lay out its last plan. So until Obama lays out his plan, the 9/2011 deadline may or may not be pushed back some.

See, your problem goes as this

if Side A grabs for 100%, they get 0.

if side B grabs for 100%, they get it all.


it doesnt work that way.


israel is only considering it, because the palestinians are NOT following the oslo accords.

Israel is waiting to talk about borders.

but Abbas's plan is bullshit. he is simply losing more land.


israel isnt going to bend over backwards because the PA magically calls a state which interferes with the settlers.

the settlers definitly do not want to live in a palestinian state


the world isnt going to just see Israel annexing the land. they are going to see the oslo accords go to shreds first, then the palestinians crying because the parts of it which protected them have gone to shit, they will cry to the UN that will do nothing, then israel is slowly going to settle over the land and call it israel in a decade because the PA isnt going to magically have control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

Interesting bit:

Annex 2: Withdrawal of Israeli forces

An agreement on the withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area. This agreement will include comprehensive arrangements to apply in the Gaza Strip and the Jericho area subsequent to the Israeli withdrawal. Internal security and public order by the Palestinian police force consisting of police officers recruited locally and from abroad (holding Jordanian passports and Palestinian documents issued by Egypt). Those who will participate in the Palestinian police force coming from abroad should be trained as police and police officers.

• A temporary international or foreign presence, as agreed upon.
• Establishment of a joint Palestinian-Israeli Coordination and Cooperation Committee for mutual security purposes.
• Arrangements for a safe passage for persons and transportation between the Gaza Strip and Jericho area.
• Arrangements for coordination between both parties regarding passages: Gaza - Egypt; and Jericho - Jordan.

Annex 3: Economic cooperation

The two sides agree to establish an Israeli-Palestinian continuing Committee for economic cooperation, focusing, among other things, on the following:

• Cooperation in the field of water
• Cooperation in the field of electricity
• Cooperation in the field of energy
• Cooperation in the field of finance
• Cooperation in the field of transport and communications
• Cooperation in the field of trade and commerce
• Cooperation in the field of industry
• Cooperation in, and regulation of, labor relations
• Cooperation in social welfare issues
• An environmental protection plan
• Cooperation in the field of communication and media

a rip up of that is a CLEAR disaster for the PA and they know it.

 

[Lemon law]

I will definitely agree with the FGD contention that, " Israeli the settlers definitly do not want to live in a Palestinian state"

Then why did Israeli permit them to settle on land Israel knew could never be Israeli?

In short FGD, that is and was an Israeli mistake and not the responsibility of anyone else to support past Israeli leadership stupidity.

 

[Freshgeardude]

I will definitely agree with the FGD contention that, " Israeli the settlers definitly do not want to live in a Palestinian state"

Then why did Israeli permit them to settle on land Israel knew could never be Israeli?

In short FGD, that is and was an Israeli mistake and not the responsibility of anyone else to support past Israeli leadership stupidity.

"land they can never own"


so who owns it?


In 1948, egypt took gaza, jordan took the west bank.

there were no complaints, they accepted it.

1967, israel takes both, world-wide condemnation.

peace treaty with egypt- egypt gives up claims to gaza
peace treaty with jordan- gives up claims to jordan valley


so who owns the land?


Israel obviously does. it was won in war fair and square.

the arab world really should be the last to complain about land won in war. in recent times, they have claimed more land through war than any other demographic, yet they complain of a sliver of land.

a drop in the bucket that is the arab world.


they use it as a political tool against israel.

they hate israel, and if they could all collectively vote to take israel out, there would not be a single vote to defend israel.

they hated the jews before the immigration of the early 1900s, even more before 1948, infurious in 48, and hellstruck from 67 until today.

they want israel out and they know they cant move it