Quartet may recognize Palestinian State in September.

[EagleKeeper]

Where do you get the idea that the UN has authority to force Israel to assimilate the Palestinians.

What doctrine - that if a country attacks you; you have to roll over and not defend yourself. And then reward those countries that attacked you. Where is such written? Those territories were not controlled by the Palestinians; if anything they should be handed back to the original stewards who then can deal with the UN and the Palestinians.

But wait - those stewards do not want anything to do with those troublemakers.
Maybe Israel should hand the headache back to the UN - wards of the state - until those children to grow up

Now you are talking about a failed attempt for a Palestinians state. What happened to the earth shattering decision in Sept?

 

[Lemon law]

Israel is responsible for harboring World's # 1 terrorist Menachem Begin, and no other country in he World except Israel had as a prime minister well known terrorist...




United States have harbored terrorists Algirdas & Pranas Brazinskas(son/father) who hijacked an airplane and killed a 19 y.o. stewardess

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well your mention of Begin and his fellow bomb throwing terrorists PM in Golda Mier has a an eerie relevance today.

Because it turns out almost certain the Begin armed the Argentinians in the Falkland war. In short Israel is accusing Hamas today of exactly that that Begin did 30 years ago.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4059254,00.html

As for you Israeli fan clubber who want to discredit my link, the same link appeared in Haaretz.

As for the Brits who are part of the quartet, its not exactly going to create a lot of British pro Israeli sympathy. As that very Begin arming sunk a British warship GB still has not forgotten. Nor has GB forgotten the Begin Bombing of the King David Hotel.

As Israeli conveniently claims they were not ever or still now are not terrorists.

 

[Gintaras]

As Israeli conveniently claims they were not ever or still now are not terrorists.

US and Israel today is what Germany and Italy were in late 1930's, beginning 40's

When US attacks let's say Iraq and murders hundreds of thousands people, how many honest americans can question themselves:

Why they - The World don't like US if we are SO GOOD???

 

[Freshgeardude]

United States have harbored terrorists Algirdas & Pranas Brazinskas(son/father) who hijacked an airplane and killed a 19 y.o. stewardess

your attempt to have a similar situation is completely fail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_244

important bit

The hijackers commandeered the plane to Trabzon, Turkey, and surrendered to the Turkish government. The Brazinskas were tried and imprisoned, but Turkey refused to cede them to the Soviet authorities.[3] The plane with its passengers was soon returned to the USSR. After spending some time in prison, in 1974, the Brazinskas were granted amnesty and made their way to the United States where they were naturalized in 1983. The memories of the incident resurfaced again in 2002, when Algirdas Brazinskas (now known as Albert Victor White) was convicted by the court of Santa Monica of murdering his 77-year-old father Pranas Brazinskas (Frank White) during a family argument.[2][4]

and lets not forget the cold war.

sure 4 years in prison is not heavy enough of a sentence for hijacking an airplane, but it was in the middle of the cold war

AND


im pretty sure if a terrorist group bombs the US now, and they have a safe haven in another country, we are going to invade (lol hello afganistan)

 

[CLite]

US and Israel today is what Germany and Italy were in late 1930's, beginning 40's

When US attacks let's say Iraq and murders hundreds of thousands people, how many honest americans can question themselves:

Why they - The World don't like US if we are SO GOOD???

The reasonable death toll passed around doesn't even approach 200,000 so it's not hundreds of thousands. Additionally most of the deaths came from terrorist bombings and violence.

If you look at groups like the french freedom fighters in WW2 you notice they didn't bomb their own populace to death, which is what makes it very clear that the resistance in Iraq was terrorist driven and not some kind of freedom fighting force.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Those that support terror and wish to justify it, do not understand numerical logic.

The fault is on the target, no matter what the collateral damage is.

 

[Lemon law]

The reasonable death toll passed around doesn't even approach 200,000 so it's not hundreds of thousands. Additionally most of the deaths came from terrorist bombings and violence.

If you look at groups like the french freedom fighters in WW2 you notice they didn't bomb their own populace to death, which is what makes it very clear that the resistance in Iraq was terrorist driven and not some kind of freedom fighting force.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMHO, Clite has a rather shallow understanding of what happened in Iraq and for that matter Afghanistan,

Because any military occupation tows along anarchy in its own wake. And because Iraq is somewhat nation that should never have been, composed of three major ethnic groups in the Sunni, Shia, and the Kurds. As since each group mixes like oil and water, what the US occupation caused was not classic terrorism, but rather ethnic cleaning. Ethnic cleaning by in large accomplished, various factions now turn to looting the Iraqi treasury.

As independent groups all over the Iraq armed themselves, and sought to control their neighborhoods, because the USA had way too few troops to police Iraq. As it is that looting is acceptable for with Present poobah in charge namely Makiki. But until that Mafia like looting is confronted and stopped, Iraq can never become a strong, stable, and unified Nation.

In Afghanistan the situation is the same but somewhat different. Because Afghanistan is more ethnically homogenous, the anarchy expressive its self in terms of drug lords and government thuggery. Leaving the ordinary Afghan people with a dysfunctional and broken government no one can stomach. And in those conditions it only empowers the Taliban and terrorism with their cry of throw the Western devils out that fills their recruiting stations. And because Nato has way too few troops to do anything but play wackomole with the Taliban, it only makes Afghanistan into nothing but a shooting gallery the Afghan people cannot accept. Worse yet, the Nato bungling has had the net effect of destabilizing both Pakistan and India.

 

[Lemon law]

Those that support terror and wish to justify it, do not understand numerical logic.

The fault is on the target, no matter what the collateral damage is.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the Common Courtesy logic does not exactly explain the USA, a very nation born in change, defiance, and terrorism. But point granted by all Common Courtesy numerical logic, the Brits they should have won.

So I ask you this question and I ask it seriously, why do you thing you are the arbitrager of your preferred outcome scenario? And then pulling in random historical examples such as what you just cited, to support your flawed logic.

The world keeps on a changing Common Courtesy, and if Israel does not get real soon, its going to be in a hell of a worse position.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Ll - you apparently have no paid attention to what I was addressing.

The Palestinians also need to get real - they can not have their cake and eat it also.
They have been coddled for 60+ years. IT is about time that they try to actually stand on their own and accept the consequences of their actions.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Considered by who? numbers of people Arafat murdered himself? -- are you really that dense.....
I could provide numbers of murderded people and locations of villages of Palestina M.Begin PARTICIPATED HIMSELF -- so again what is your point?
It's all on Wiki about terrorist activity of M.Begin....there are a lot of reasons that people don`t use anything wiki related to back up there stupidity. Here is one of the reasons--Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit.
www.wikipedia.org

get it?? anyone can edit......

Also, i'd suggest to check UN Resolutions against Israel on UN site....why check the resolutions? You must be a newbie to this whole subject.......The UN has always tried to impose their will on Israel. Yet the UN is a paper tiger and very pro-Palestinian. The UN has clearly showed themselves to be biased against Israel to the point that even when it is clear Israel acted in self-defense they never once set out to condemn the attacking party......
Also don`t suggest anything....you have no clue what you are talking about!

So what is your point??
On these forums what you are posting is old and already been chewed over and depending on where you stand on this whole Palestinian affair what you posted is just plain nonsense. You must live in Gaza! Did you know your buddy Lemon law has parents who own a condo in the Gaza??

 

[JEDIYoda]

Ll - you apparently have no paid attention to what I was addressing.

The Palestinians also need to get real - they can not have their cake and eat it also.
They have been coddled for 60+ years. IT is about time that they try to actually stand on their own and accept the consequences of their actions.

Sorry to interrupt but we all know that lemon law wants the people who call themselves Palestinians to have their cake and eat it too......

 

[Lemon law]

Ll - you apparently have no paid attention to what I was addressing.

The Palestinians also need to get real - they can not have their cake and eat it also.
They have been coddled for 60+ years. IT is about time that they try to actually stand on their own and accept the consequences of their actions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In case you have not noticed Common Courtesy, the PA is doing exactly that. As they are recognized by the UN as building the required State institutions to become a State.

But I know I know, your Israeli propaganda line is to blame the PA, for any non related terrorists acts on the planet. While at the same time ignoring all acts of Israeli terrorism. As Israeli settler parties become the worst mid-east rascals.

 

[JEDIYoda]

In case you have not noticed Common Courtesy, the PA is doing exactly that. As they are recognized by the UN as building the required State institutions to become a State.

link please to the section that says the UN has recognized the PA...thank you!!

 

[Lemon law]

I have tried to re find the link, but does it matter, the PA already has lined up the support of well more than the required 128 nations.

The Israeli line is that a Palestinian State cannot stand on its own, but that is contingent on Israel being able to maintain a internal and external occupation of the Palestinian economy.

The two very things that will become toast with the granting of Palestinian statehood.

But still, that is can to will be addressed in more in September, the world is first waiting for the Obama and Netanyuhu positions coming this May.

I doubt Netanyuhu can say much of consequences, but the stakes are far higher for Obama. Because now the US trade off, is back Israeli at the cost of losing all Arab and most of all international support.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I have tried to re find the link, but does it matter, the PA already has lined up the support of well more than the required 128 nations.

The Israeli line is that a Palestinian State cannot stand on its own, but that is contingent on Israel being able to maintain a internal and external occupation of the Palestinian economy.

The two very things that will become toast with the granting of Palestinian statehood.

But still, that is can to will be addressed in more in September, the world is first waiting for the Obama and Netanyuhu positions coming this May.

I doubt Netanyuhu can say much of consequences, but the stakes are far higher for Obama. Because now the US trade off, is back Israeli at the cost of losing all Arab and most of all international support.

So once again we are asked to take your word...no link...possibly a link in your mushroom induced stupor???

 

[Gintaras]

The reasonable death toll passed around doesn't even approach 200,000 so it's not hundreds of thousands. Additionally most of the deaths came from terrorist bombings and violence.

If you look at groups like the french freedom fighters in WW2 you notice they didn't bomb their own populace to death, which is what makes it very clear that the resistance in Iraq was terrorist driven and not some kind of freedom fighting force.

How more cynical you can get?

"The reasonable death toll" - "reasonable death toll", when it's someone else's death, not mine...

"We didn't do", "not our fault"..."we do liberate people in other countries...out of their lifes"...

Can Clite to be called a human being? To call Clite an animal - would be an insult to animals....

 

[Gintaras]

your attempt to have a similar situation is completely fail

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_244

important bit




and lets not forget the cold war.

sure 4 years in prison is not heavy enough of a sentence for hijacking an airplane, but it was in the middle of the cold war

AND


im pretty sure if a terrorist group bombs the US now, and they have a safe haven in another country, we are going to invade (lol hello afganistan)

Another ignorant and arrogant asshole...
How would be "singing" now, if that 19 y.o. girl, a stewardess that was murdered, was your girlfriend or your sister?

Should I tell, that these terrorist are/were my countrymen, but they're murders and terrorists.

 

[Lemon law]

Come on Come Gintaris, to blame only Clite for endorsing the stupid GWB policy of someone else hardly put blame where it belongs.

Although I can proudly claim to be an exception, the GWB policy of invading Iraq got 90% initial American people support.

Its one thing to say the American people now have some 3 trillion dollar buyers regret as Hillary Clinton pandering costs her the US Presidency.

But that misses the larger point, the US foreign policy world wide support has now gone into the toilet as a result.

The reason that point is valid in this thread, is that now the US will find it very costly to back only Israel to the hilt.

But still Obama is between a rock and a hard place, if he does not back Israeli to the hilt, AIPAC will cost him major American political support. And if Obama backs Israel to the Hilt, it will cost major American ally support.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If the Palestinians get a state by mandate of the UN, they still have to decide how they want to live with Israel.
Will the state be Hamas or Fatah style?

Forcing the state by the UN will not solve the overall peace issue; the problems are not the Israeli settlements; but the fact that Israel exists. Will the Palestinians accept that?
Any issues that the Palestinians want to negotiate for as a peace settlement will no longer have any leverage once they have a state.

The UN is not going to force Israel out of Jerusalem and the West Bank militarily. Embargos will not go into play - the UN embargo policy has shown to be toothless and riddled with corruption. As is, any embargo/blockade will also punish the Palestinians as well; so that comes off the table.
So there will be a Palestinian state with the same issues as before and no leverage against Israel to force any issues.

Then there is the fact that Hamas will still be active.

Do the Palestinians want a state or the extermination of Israel. Can one group control the other or do they even want to try?

What major American ally support could be lost. England has always been anti-Irsrael. No loss there!

Allies are based on economic and political needs. While the US may have lost some face; it is the rest of the world that turns to us to carry their baggage and cleanup their shitholes.

 

[Lemon law]

First of all Common Courtesy seems to be under the delusion that Israel will not be facing an economic embargo is they don't abide by the terms of a mid-east settlement.

Just a taste of an economic embargo was more than enough to end South African Apartheid, as for Israeli settlers left on the Palestinian side of any final settlement will at a minimum find, they no longer get preferential treatment when it comes to water allocations and similar scarce resources.

As for Israel itself, their ability to embargo or control the Palestinian economy will vanish in any final settlement.

And if the Palestinian people behave far better than the Israelis, it can only backfire on Israel. Because getting a stable peace will allow everyone in the mid-east to benefit from a peace dividend. And if Israel plays its cards rights, they can finally becomes a useful and valuable part of the mid-east region. Adding Israeli technical expertise to the benefit of the whole mid-east region.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Another ignorant and arrogant asshole...
How would be "singing" now, if that 19 y.o. girl, a stewardess that was murdered, was your girlfriend or your sister?

Should I tell, that these terrorist are/were my countrymen, but they're murders and terrorists.

Wow! One person died and you are crying like it was the entire flight.

Obviously, terrorism is terrorism and those who commit it deserve punishment.



But let's see here, do you condemn hamas and hezbollah for the suicide bombings and rocket attacks ?

Or do you find some rationale behind it yet call Israelis defensive actions terrorism?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Another ignorant and arrogant asshole...
How would be "singing" now, if that 19 y.o. girl, a stewardess that was murdered, was your girlfriend or your sister?

Should I tell, that these terrorist are/were my countrymen, but they're murders and terrorists.

Your point? Incoherent babble is still incoherent and still babble.....

So why are you crying??

Who cares if the terrorist are or were or will be or are going to be your freaking countrymen????

Your one of these sniveling Palestinian fanboys who has no cahones......


cry all day and in the end do nothing about your situation....

 

[lupi]

But Obama made that Statement and now Obama can't retract

tooooo funny.

 

[EagleKeeper]

First of all Common Courtesy seems to be under the delusion that Israel will not be facing an economic embargo is they don't abide by the terms of a mid-east settlement.

Just a taste of an economic embargo was more than enough to end South African Apartheid, as for Israeli settlers left on the Palestinian side of any final settlement will at a minimum find, they no longer get preferential treatment when it comes to water allocations and similar scarce resources.

As for Israel itself, their ability to embargo or control the Palestinian economy will vanish in any final settlement.

And if the Palestinian people behave far better than the Israelis, it can only backfire on Israel. Because getting a stable peace will allow everyone in the mid-east to benefit from a peace dividend. And if Israel plays its cards rights, they can finally becomes a useful and valuable part of the mid-east region. Adding Israeli technical expertise to the benefit of the whole mid-east region.

The issue is that there is no settlement. The UN will have waived it's wand and declared Palestine a state.

They will not put any rules on the way Palestine is government, who represents it and who is accountable.

What will happen is the same as in '48; A state is created and becomes at war with neighbors.

In this case, Israel controls water, power and economic supplies to Gaza and to some extent, the West Bank.

Should trouble arise from either section, Israel just turns off the taps. They are no longer responsible for what happens. While both areas can attempt to build their own replacements systems; that takes time. There are way to many people to try and bring in replacements overnight.

Given the way Hamas handled the previous elections after they won, do you really think they are going to settle for a dual state situation?

And will it be Fatah or Hamas that actually is the government of the new state. Will one be able to control the other, other will is still be a split state.
Should the West Bank then be responsible for the actions of Gaza?

Without a negotiated settlement; Israel ends up being in the drivers seat.

I would like to see the Palestinian people choose to live in peace/harmony with the Jews like they did prior to the partition. I actually think that they can if the radicals/sponsors are eliminated.

To do so will required both sides to bury all grievances and start with a brand new idea.

 

[EagleKeeper]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In case you have not noticed Common Courtesy, the PA is doing exactly that. As they are recognized by the UN as building the required State institutions to become a State.

But I know I know, your Israeli propaganda line is to blame the PA, for any non related terrorists acts on the planet. While at the same time ignoring all acts of Israeli terrorism. As Israeli settler parties become the worst mid-east rascals.

The terrorism that you see is the rockets coming out of Gaza constantly. An area controlled by the Palestinians and Hamas.

Should the Palestinians be willing to accept peace, the issue with the settlers can be easily solved; It was done in Gaza and look at the results.
No Israeli's in the boundaries of Gaza and the area of the settlements is now a forward staging ground for attacks against Israel.

The settlements are a minor thorn in both sides that can be pulled out and/or worked around.

It is the attitude of the Palestinians and the Arabs toward Israel that is the serious issue.

Until those groups can accept thta Israel is going to play in the sandbox; there are going to be serious issues that will errupt into violence.
A forced settlement will just allow justification for both sides to continue their actions - because it will have been forced upon them rather that working out the differences.