Question Qualcomm's first Nuvia based SoC - Hamoa

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FlameTail

Senior member
Dec 15, 2021
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How many E-cores would be ideal for this future Hamoa SoC?

2 certainly seems insufficient, as Apple is moving away from 8P+2E to 8P+4E for M2 Pro/Max. I have seen people say that their 2E cores in the M1 Pro/Max are often in 100% utilisation.

These E cores are of course, useful for background tasks and less demanding workloads like Email, Discord etc...

Considering Windows is a less streamlined OS than MacOS, do you think 4E cores would be enough?
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
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Currently the medium cores are only loaded if I need full multicore performance. For background tasks I barely see them taking more than 20% load.
So background tasks can not possibly the argument for adding more medium cores - and yes I am talking Windows here.

However in a thermally constrained environment, you might want to choose more medium cores just in order to get your efficiency up under multi-core workloads (similar to what Intel is doing)
ARM is generally proposing 8 Cortex X3 and 4 Cortex A715 for upcoming notebook CPUs. Note that DSU is currently limited to 12 cores - so at least for design based on ARM IP the core distribution is just dependent on target TDP, where the higher TDP SKUs will have a distribution with more P-cores.

The bigger question is, if we will see Windows ARM SoCs with higher TDP than the current limit of 9W. 9W is about the limit for fan-less devices - an that is currently the niche Qualcomm is placing its bets.
 

hemedans

Member
Jan 31, 2015
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Currently the medium cores are only loaded if I need full multicore performance. For background tasks I barely see them taking more than 20% load.
So background tasks can not possibly the argument for adding more medium cores - and yes I am talking Windows here.

However in a thermally constrained environment, you might want to choose more medium cores just in order to get your efficiency up under multi-core workloads (similar to what Intel is doing)
ARM is generally proposing 8 Cortex X3 and 4 Cortex A715 for upcoming notebook CPUs. Note that DSU is currently limited to 12 cores - so at least for design based on ARM IP the core distribution is just dependent on target TDP, where the higher TDP SKUs will have a distribution with more P-cores.

The bigger question is, if we will see Windows ARM SoCs with higher TDP than the current limit of 9W. 9W is about the limit for fan-less devices - an that is currently the niche Qualcomm is placing its bets.
If 1(X3) + 2(A715) + 2(A710) + 3(A510) use 12W under load, 8 cortex X3 + 4 cortex A715 will use around 30W under load.
 

Thala

Golden Member
Nov 12, 2014
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If 1(X3) + 2(A715) + 2(A710) + 3(A510) use 12W under load, 8 cortex X3 + 4 cortex A715 will use around 30W under load.
If this is a phone chip it will have around 4W TDP - 12W are far from being sustainable in a phone chassis. I am talking about sustained performance and not short term peak.
Look at a random Laptop with Intel CPU, there is a big gap between PL1 and PL2. PL1 is the relevant metric here, as that defines how your device needs to be cooled.
 
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FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Qualcomm's working on a 2024 PC chip codename "Hamoa" with up to 12 (8P+4E).

Said to the same cache layout as M1. large private L1$, per-cluster L2$ (cluster = 4 cores, 12MB for every cluster) and a lot of LLC.

source:
Hamoa SoC- 12 MB L2 cache for each 4P cluster?

Apple M1 had 12 MB L2 cache per 4P cluster.
M2 has 16 MB L2 cache per 4P cluster.

So the by the time the Qualcomm Hamoa SoC arrives, Apple M3 will be already out. Judging by the pattern going forward, I estimate M3 will have 20 MB or 24 MB of L2 cache per 4P cluster.

Qualcomm historically has a track record for cheaping out on cache for their Mobile SoCs.
As such, the rumoured 12 MB L2 for their laptop chip should ring alarm bells.

Only time will tell.
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
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The real news to me is that even Arm's Mali-G715 in MediaTek's Dimensity 9200 is slightly ahead of Apple's A16. :oops:
I'm not. MediaTek definitely had the weaker iGPU in the Dimensity 9000 and 9000+, so that's the one area where they needed to put in work to catch up to Qualcomm. Granted they are more beholden to ARM's designers than their own but still.
 

FlameTail

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richardskrad

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Interviews with more than two dozen former Apple employees and a review of legal filings show that Apple has lost dozens of key people to chip startups and more-established silicon companies since 2019. Collectively, this information provides the most complete picture to date of how Apple’s secretive silicon group operates and the behind-the-scenes drama that has unfolded since the departure of Gerard Williams III, the Apple executive responsible for the central processor inside iPhones, who left to create his own chip startup, Nuvia, in 2019.

“The gains in Apple’s CPU performance over the last few years have been very minor and mostly due to improvements in chip manufacturing rather than Apple’s chip design,” said Dylan Patel, chief analyst at research firm SemiAnalysis. “Since Williams left, Apple’s CPU performance gains have slowed significantly.”

Apple sued Williams six months after he left, accusing him of using its intellectual property at his new venture and of poaching key chip engineers to work at Nuvia while he was still employed at Apple. Earlier this year, Apple made similar accusations against Rivos, another chipmaker that has lured away key Apple silicon engineers.

People familiar with the two startups say the departures have had a deeply personal impact on [Apple SVP JohnySrouji] and his top lieutenant, Sribalan Santhanam, given their friendships with the former Apple employees who left for Nuvia and Rivos. They have also created tensions with a pair of venture capitalists—Lip-Bu Tan and Amarjit Gill—who are investors in both startups. Tan, a powerful figure in the chip industry who sits on the board of Intel, is closely linked to Apple as a key supplier of software tools for chip design, while Gill worked briefly at Apple after it bought his former startup, P.A. Semi, which helped Apple get its start in chips. Tan’s and Gill’s investments in Rivos haven’t been previously reported.
Qualcomm, which now owns Nuvia, declined to comment. Williams and representatives for Rivos, Tan and Gill didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment. In legal responses, lawyers for both Williams and Rivos have claimed the Apple lawsuits are baseless.

My take: Ma, a reporter relentless in his search for ways to take Apple down a notch, pegs this story to -- and blames the behind-the-scenes drama for -- a "snafu" that feels blown out of proportion:

Apple planned a generational leap for the graphics processor in the latest version of its high-end smartphones, the iPhone 14 Pro. But engineers were too ambitious with adding new features, and early prototypes drew more power than what the company had expected based on software simulations. That could have hurt battery life and made the device too hot, according to two people with direct knowledge of the incident. Because Apple discovered the mistake late in development, it had to base the graphics processor in its iPhone 14 Pro line—which powers the phone’s user interface, games and everything else visible on its screen—largely on the design of the chip that went into last year’s iPhone model, according to four people familiar with the matter.
 

poke01

Senior member
Mar 8, 2022
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My take: Ma, a reporter relentless in his search for ways to take Apple down a notch, pegs this story to -- and blames the behind-the-scenes drama for -- a "snafu" that feels blown out of proportion:
no so Ma wrote a piece in 2021 saying that Apple will dominate in 2023 if M3 designs come out.
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
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Semiaccurate are reporting that Qualcomm have cancelled a "major programme". I can't see what it is without a subscription, but I hope it's not these laptop chips. :(
 

Thibsie

Senior member
Apr 25, 2017
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Semiaccurate are reporting that Qualcomm have cancelled a "major programme". I can't see what it is without a subscription, but I hope it's not these laptop chips. :(
If you could read it, you would probably probably cry. QC really are stupid idiots.
 
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FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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Christiano Amon is a great CEO, is he not?
With someone like Lisa Su in charge, I think Qualcomm can successfully become a major player in the PC market.
 

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