Question Qualcomm's first Nuvia based SoC - Hamoa

[poke01]

Qualcomm's working on a 2024 PC chip codename "Hamoa" with up to 12 (8P+4E).

Said to the same cache layout as M1. large private L1$, per-cluster L2$ (cluster = 4 cores, 12MB for every cluster) and a lot of LLC.

source:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1589405172979339264

 

[FlameTail]

Make sure to check out the Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread too guys!

This thread was created to discuss the rumours of the Nuvia based Hamoa chip Qualcomm was working on. That phase is now over, as the product has been announced. So I hope future discussions of the Snapdragon X Elite will take place in that thread.

 

[beginner99]

2024 seems like a turbulent year. Intel Meteor Lake will be out, and AMD are launching Zen5 and all those formidable APUs.

True but looking how effing expensive laptops with AMD phoenix are (all over $1000 here), I now actually think this elite x chips has a reasonable niche to be competitive in.

You can get models with an RTX 4060 mobile for same price completely making the strong iGPU kind of non-sense as anyone interested in gaming would go for one with a 4060. much better performance for similar price.

 

[FlameTail]

System thermal capacity (in our language) indicates what the SoC+DDR+conversion loss power is at saturation while maintaining maximum specified Tj. Conceptually, in our designs, these sub-components (SoC, DDR, PMICs) are bonded to the thermal solution and are all transferring energy into it.

This definition is different than some others in the market and should not be confused.

The only way to really understand how much power any particular workload consumes is to measure it, hence the various performance/W curves that were provided.

- John Bruno

I just quoted what Mr. Bruno said in this forum (I didn't want to ping him). Anyways this statement is really interesting:

Conceptually, in our designs, these sub-components (SoC, DDR, PMICs) are bonded to the thermal solution and are all transferring energy into it.

So does this mean the SoC, RAM and PMIC are all in one package? In other words, is it like how Apple has done it (SoC and RAM in the same substrate) ?

 

[SpudLobby]

True but looking how effing expensive laptops with AMD phoenix are (all over $1000 here), I now actually think this elite x chips has a reasonable niche to be competitive in.

You can get models with an RTX 4060 mobile for same price completely making the strong iGPU kind of non-sense as anyone interested in gaming would go for one with a 4060. much better performance for similar price.

AMD Phoenix laptops are expensive at the g high end but the lowest end (of Phoenix shipping laptops, not saying they are low end systems) is a really great value. I’m sure it’s more expensive than Raptor Lake/ADL mobile but not by even remotely enough to matter for the > $800 segment.

https://www.costco.com/hp-pavilion-plus-14%22-oled-2.8k-2880-x-1800-120hz-laptop---amd-ryzen-7-7840u---windows-11.product.4000214686.html

This is a crazy good deal. Single handedly changed my mind about Phoenix offerings based in it.

I will say the OLED is suboptimal vs an LED IPS panel with the same nits and resolution + refresh rate, because I don’t think Phoenix has enough efficiency to spare to make this worthwhile but it’s still going to get credibly decent battery life — should be a 67-70whr battery to make up for the OLED in the Pavilion Plus OLED model. Regular LED one is ~ 50Whr or so.

So for $900:

• AMD Ryzen™ 7 7840U (8-core) Processor
• 14" Micro-Edge BrightView 2.8K (2880 x 1800) OLED 48- 120 HZ 500-Nits Display
• Wi-Fi 6E (2x2/160) Gig+ and Bluetooth® 5.3
• Backlit Keyboard and Webcam with Privacy Shutter
• AMD Ryzen™ AI Technology Built in
• 16GB LPDDR5
• 1TB SSD

Honestly, probably the best laptop value I’ve ever seen for a premium ultraportable, provided the trackpad is mostly > 7/10.

If they made one with the same specs albeit better build quality (so an Envy of sorts), LED 2.8K/500 nits, kept the same battery size, and maybe better webcam, then IMO it’d utterly clear the market lol. Would be the go to ideal laptop even if it’s $100-200 more.

 

[FlameTail]

So does this mean the SoC, RAM and PMIC are all in one package? In other words, is it like how Apple has done it (SoC and RAM in the same substrate) ?

Thoughts, anyone?

https://www.costco.com/hp-pavilion-plus-14%22-oled-2.8k-2880-x-1800-120hz-laptop---amd-ryzen-7-7840u---windows-11.product.4000214686.html

That price tag is insane.

This gives me hope the X Elite will also find it's way to sub-$1000 laptops.

 

[beginner99]

AMD Phoenix laptops are expensive at the g high end but the lowest end (of Phoenix shipping laptops, not saying they are low end systems) is a really great value. I’m sure it’s more expensive than Raptor Lake/ADL mobile but not by even remotely enough to matter for the > $800 segment.

https://www.costco.com/hp-pavilion-plus-14%22-oled-2.8k-2880-x-1800-120hz-laptop---amd-ryzen-7-7840u---windows-11.product.4000214686.html

This is a crazy good deal. Single handedly changed my mind about Phoenix offerings based in it.

I will say the OLED is suboptimal vs an LED IPS panel with the same nits and resolution + refresh rate, because I don’t think Phoenix has enough efficiency to spare to make this worthwhile but it’s still going to get credibly decent battery life — should be a 67-70whr battery to make up for the OLED in the Pavilion Plus OLED model. Regular LED one is ~ 50Whr or so.

So for $900:

• AMD Ryzen™ 7 7840U (8-core) Processor
• 14" Micro-Edge BrightView 2.8K (2880 x 1800) OLED 48- 120 HZ 500-Nits Display
• Wi-Fi 6E (2x2/160) Gig+ and Bluetooth® 5.3
• Backlit Keyboard and Webcam with Privacy Shutter
• AMD Ryzen™ AI Technology Built in
• 16GB LPDDR5
• 1TB SSD

Honestly, probably the best laptop value I’ve ever seen for a premium ultraportable, provided the trackpad is mostly > 7/10.

If they made one with the same specs albeit better build quality (so an Envy of sorts), LED 2.8K/500 nits, kept the same battery size, and maybe better webcam, then IMO it’d utterly clear the market lol. Would be the go to ideal laptop even if it’s $100-200 more.

This model is not available in my country. the same one but with a 13700H is $1500. In EU this model I saw for 1150€ which is about $1250. So I guess you see now what I meant. AMD often is a lot more expensive in EU than in US while nvidia is more comparable explaining nvidia huge market share. nvidia tax isn't that big outside of US.

 

[qmech]

I will say the OLED is suboptimal vs an LED IPS panel with the same nits and resolution + refresh rate, because I don’t think Phoenix has enough efficiency to spare to make this worthwhile but it’s still going to get credibly decent battery life — should be a 67-70whr battery to make up for the OLED in the Pavilion Plus OLED model. Regular LED one is ~ 50Whr or so.

Depending on the OLED, the difference in power consumption is a bit overrated, in my experience. This one appears to have variable refresh rate, which should also help.

On a standard OLED, power usage is only more than IPS if more than half the subpixels are on (e.g. 50% white). In dark mode, you can often get lower power consumption than IPS and it's pretty much a wash in games and media.

Honestly, probably the best laptop value I’ve ever seen for a premium ultraportable, provided the trackpad is mostly > 7/10.

It's a bit thick for my tastes, but hopefully that gets you a great thermal solution.

FWIW, CNET gave this laptop 8.5/10 at $1220, so $900 does seem like a great buy.

I recently paid a bit less than $850 for a Lenovo Yoga Slim 6. Much slimmer, but I wound up having to settle for a FHD OLED display, so that's an area where the HP definitely wins. Same specs otherwise. I did try to buy a Slim 7, but Lenovo didn't want my money (9-week delivery time with my config).

 

[SpudLobby]

Thoughts, anyone?


That price tag is insane.

This gives me hope the X Elite will also find it's way to sub-$1000 laptops.

Lmao I don’t think it will though because the target market will be a bit more premium so initially, as in, you’ll see them more in an XPS and Thinkpad and Yoga initially, but I do think the price points will be competitive for the types of systems they are.

It’s not a big die and even if we imagined hypothetically you put the X Elite in a system like this, say the cost to the OEM was another -$100-200 due to QC margins and the better RAM, and they pass that cost on, you’d be looking at a $1000-1100 HP Pavilion Plus with an X Elite.

It would probably blow Phoenix out of the water on efficiency, battery life most importantly and peak performance.

But maybe the exact same HP laptop at Costco hypothetically with a QC chip be a marginal $400 extra or something outrageous. I’m skeptical though.

 

[trivik12]

AMD Phoenix laptops are expensive at the g high end but the lowest end (of Phoenix shipping laptops, not saying they are low end systems) is a really great value. I’m sure it’s more expensive than Raptor Lake/ADL mobile but not by even remotely enough to matter for the > $800 segment.

https://www.costco.com/hp-pavilion-plus-14%22-oled-2.8k-2880-x-1800-120hz-laptop---amd-ryzen-7-7840u---windows-11.product.4000214686.html

This is a crazy good deal. Single handedly changed my mind about Phoenix offerings based in it.

I will say the OLED is suboptimal vs an LED IPS panel with the same nits and resolution + refresh rate, because I don’t think Phoenix has enough efficiency to spare to make this worthwhile but it’s still going to get credibly decent battery life — should be a 67-70whr battery to make up for the OLED in the Pavilion Plus OLED model. Regular LED one is ~ 50Whr or so.

So for $900:

• AMD Ryzen™ 7 7840U (8-core) Processor
• 14" Micro-Edge BrightView 2.8K (2880 x 1800) OLED 48- 120 HZ 500-Nits Display
• Wi-Fi 6E (2x2/160) Gig+ and Bluetooth® 5.3
• Backlit Keyboard and Webcam with Privacy Shutter
• AMD Ryzen™ AI Technology Built in
• 16GB LPDDR5
• 1TB SSD

Honestly, probably the best laptop value I’ve ever seen for a premium ultraportable, provided the trackpad is mostly > 7/10.

If they made one with the same specs albeit better build quality (so an Envy of sorts), LED 2.8K/500 nits, kept the same battery size, and maybe better webcam, then IMO it’d utterly clear the market lol. Would be the go to ideal laptop even if it’s $100-200 more.

while this is good I saw good deals even with 32/64GB ram. Considering the RAM is soldered on these laptops its good to get higher config.

Lenovo ThinkPad P14s: 14" 2.8K OLED, Ryzen 7 PRO 7840U, 64GB LPDDR5, 1TB SSD $1069 + Free Shipping

Lenovo has Lenovo ThinkPad P14s 14" Laptop (21K5001JUS) on sale for $1,069 when you apply eCoupons WSDEAL13 and HOLIDAYSURPRISE in your cart. Shipping is free. Thanks to Community Member S ...

slickdeals.net

Lenovo ThinkPad P14s: 14" FHD+ IPS, Ryzen 7 7840U, 32GB LPDDR5, 1TB SSD, Win 11 Pro $969

You MIGHT get a further discount of 10% if you verify with id.me and also check for AMEX offers. SPECS: 14" FHD+ (1920 x 1200, WUXGA+) 16:10, 400-nits, 100%sRGB, Low Power, Low Blue Light, ...

slickdeals.net

 

[FlameTail]

Lmao I don’t think it will though because the target market will be a bit more premium so initially, as in, you’ll see them more in an XPS and Thinkpad and Yoga initially, but I do think the price points will be competitive for the types of systems they are.

It’s not a big die and even if we imagined hypothetically you put the X Elite in a system like this, say the cost to the OEM was another -$100-200 due to QC margins and the better RAM, and they pass that cost on, you’d be looking at a $1000-1100 HP Pavilion Plus with an X Elite.

It would probably blow Phoenix out of the water on efficiency, battery life most importantly and peak performance.

But maybe the exact same HP laptop at Costco hypothetically with a QC chip be a marginal $400 extra or something outrageous. I’m skeptical though.

Eh idk.

Leaked pricing of Meteor Lake laptops is remarkably low, which is surprising considering how costly all those Foveros 3D stuff is.

 

[FlameTail]

Is there any information on how much Intel/AMD charge laptop makers for their CPUs?

According to reports, Qualcomm charged $160 apiece for the Snapdragon 8 gen 2. That is 120 mm² chip on TSMC N4.

It must be noted that the SoC has Qualcomm's integrated 5G modem, on which Qualcomm is known to charge exorbitant prices. I'd guess about 1/3 of that $160 pricetag is purely for the modem.

Anyways, to be generous let's say the X Elite is a ~180 mm² chip. That's 1.5x the size of the SD8G2.

150% × $160 = $240

 

[SpudLobby]

Eh idk.

Leaked pricing of Meteor Lake laptops is remarkably low, which is surprising considering how costly all those Foveros 3D stuff is.

That’s not surprising. Dude if you pay attention these guys always hype up how expensive these SoCs will end up being from a consumer POV. The AMD guys have done it for bragging rights about their premium brand status and then they’ll claim as much for Intel to denigrate them and suggest e.g. MTL ARL LNL will push PC prices into Apple territory.

But that’s just BS lol. MTL and Phoenix doubtless cost more to produce and buy but evidently not like the morons suggested which checks out because they are in a merchant silicon business.