Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[jdubs03]

Negativeonehero:

Truly.

Dimensity 9400 : 3.63 GHz
A18 Pro : 4.04 GHz
8 Gen 4 : 4.32 GHz

Never did I dream there would phone CPUs running at 4 GHz, and so soon too.

The 8 Gen 4 in particular seems to be a speed demon. It's "E-cores" run at 3.53 GHz, almost the same as the 3.63 GHz peak clock of the Dimensity 9400.

Efficiency is the big question now.

All 3 chips are on TSMC N3E node, so it should allow for some nice iso node comparisons.

I was thinking about that 3.53GHz. For e-cores, that just seems really high. And it’s the main reason why I’ve assumed it’s power draw would be quite high. For instance the A17 Pro e-cores clocked at 2.11GHz.

 

[MS_AT]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 teaser;

https://twitter.com/x/status/1834256174037828066

Does this fire is supposed to suggest burnt hands from too hot phones?😉 Eh, I am afraid it will once again be more marketing than technical info event.

 

[FlameTail]

There is a quite remarkable energy efficiency uplift, going from the A715 core of 8 Gen 2, to the A720 core of 8 Gen 3.

If you look at the power curve, A720 doesn't seem to be so bad compared to A18-E. It consumed much more peak power, bit also goes on to deliver higher peak performance.

Very curious how Oryon Phoenix-M of 8 Gen 4 will stack up against this.

 

[DZero]

That makes me think...
- How 8 x A720 core will fare
- How 8 x Phoenix-M core will fare

I do expect seeing the first in D8400 and the 2nd in 7+ Gen 4

 

[jdubs03]

That makes me think...
- How 8 x A720 core will fare
- How 8 x Phoenix-M core will fare

I do expect seeing the first in D8400 and the 2nd in 7+ Gen 4

Don’t forget the A725 which replaces the A720. I think the A725 is the more appropriate comparison.

 

[FlameTail]

[Speculation]

8 Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (12 MB sL2)
6 × Phoenix-M (4 MB sL2)
12 MB SLC

8s Gen 4 / 7+ Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (8 MB sL2)
4 × Phoenix-M (3 MB sL2)
8 MB SLC

7 Gen 4
6 × Phoenix-M (6 MB sL2)
6 MB SLC

 

[DZero]

[Speculation]

8 Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (12 MB sL2)
6 × Phoenix-M (4 MB sL2)
12 MB SLC

8s Gen 4 / 7+ Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (8 MB sL2)
4 × Phoenix-M (3 MB sL2)
8 MB SLC

7 Gen 4
6 × Phoenix-M (6 MB sL2)
6 MB SLC

Interesting... unless they have the Phoenix-S (small core) since having 2 less cores sounds weird.

 

[FlameTail]

Ah, a curious thought.

If Phoenix-L stands for Phoenix-Large, and Phoenix-M stands for Phoenix-Medium, doesn't that suggest the existence of a Phoenix-S (Phoenix-Small)?

Phoenix-L ≈ Cortex X series
Phoenix-M ≈ Cortex A7xx series
Phoenix-S ≈ Cortex A5xx series

 

[FlameTail]

Interesting... unless they have the Phoenix-S (small core) since having 2 less cores sounds weird.

iPhones have had 6-core CPUs for almost a decade now.

Whereas on the Android side, 8 cores seem to be the tradition. $150 phones boast of 8-core CPUs, evn if they are 8 A55 cores.

 

[DZero]

Ah, a curious thought.

If Phoenix-L stands for Phoenix-Large, and Phoenix-M stands for Phoenix-Medium, doesn't that suggest the existence of a Phoenix-S (Phoenix-Small)?

Phoenix-L ≈ Cortex X series
Phoenix-M ≈ Cortex A7xx series
Phoenix-S ≈ Cortex A5xx series

This is what I was thinking. Maybe...

8 Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (12 MB sL2)
6 × Phoenix-M (4 MB sL2)
12 MB SLC

8s Gen 4 / 7+ Gen 4
2 × Phoenix-L (8 MB sL2)
4 × Phoenix-M (3 MB sL2)
2 x Phoenix-S
8 MB SLC

7 Gen 4
6 × Phoenix-M (6 MB sL2)
2 x Phoenix-S
6 MB SLC

The reason is that Android is configured to use 8 cores now.
I've tested my Snapdragon 820 phone and the 650 one and both are sluggish now with the SW.

 

[FlameTail]

	Clock Speed	FP32 ALUs	FP16 ALUs	Architecture
A18 Pro	1490 MHz	768	768	Family-9 6-core
8G3	903 MHz	3072	1536	Adreno 750

Adreno 750 has multiple times more ALUs, but gets hammered by the A18 Pro in terms of performance anyways;

This really shows how primitive Adreno 7 series architecture is.
I hope Qualcomm has overhauled the architecture with Adreno 8 series. It is necessary, or else Snapdragon X Gen 2 will suffer.

One month till 8 Gen 4 is revealed to the world with Adreno 830.

Snapdragon Summit 2024
October 21st.

 

[DZero]

iPhones have had 6-core CPUs for almost a decade now.

Whereas on the Android side, 8 cores seem to be the tradition. $150 phones boast of 8-core CPUs, evn if they are 8 A55 cores.

I do see Apple in the next iteration going Octa too similar to SD8 Gen 4 (2 Big and 6 middle)

 

[Doug S]

I do see Apple in the next iteration going Octa too similar to SD8 Gen 4 (2 Big and 6 middle)

I doubt it. The only reason to add more little cores would be to look better in MT benchmarks. It wouldn't help any real world loads.

 

[mvprod123]

	Clock Speed	FP32 ALUs	FP16 ALUs	Architecture
A18 Pro	1490 MHz	768	768	Family-9 6-core
8G3	903 MHz	3072	1536	Adreno 750

Adreno 750 has multiple times more ALUs, but gets hammered by the A18 Pro in terms of performance anyways;
View attachment 107878
This really shows how primitive Adreno 7 series architecture is.
I hope Qualcomm has overhauled the architecture with Adreno 8 series. It is necessary, or else Snapdragon X Gen 2 will suffer.

One month till 8 Gen 4 is revealed to the world with Adreno 830.

Snapdragon Summit 2024
October 21st.

I don't know much about GPU architectures, but it seems that the number of ALUs doesn't accurately assess performance. Obviously, Apple has something deeper that makes it better at executing complex instructions in the GPU. It would be nice if Apple also increased the number of ALUs, increasing the area of the GPU with lower clock speed. This is the path that Qualcomm took when it released 8 gen 2. It would significantly improve power efficiency.

 

[hemedans]

I doubt it. The only reason to add more little cores would be to look better in MT benchmarks. It wouldn't help any real world loads.

these big cores use so much power in phones, they are used just for burst perfomance, efficient cores are workhorse of these mobile soc, when Qualcomm moved from 3 cores to 4 cores in sd 8 gen 2 perfomance and efficiency increased a lot, geekerwan did demonstrate it

having 6 efficient cores definetely would help to sustain more perfomance in phone, i think having 2 big cores is gimmick compare to having more E cores.

 

[digitaldreamer]

<snip>

having 6 efficient cores definetely would help to sustain more perfomance in phone, i think having 2 big cores is gimmick compare to having more E cores.

I think you overestimate the performance of E cores and I strongly doubt you would enjoy using a phone with just E cores, even if there were 6 cores. Most CPU designers have actually done the tests.

If phones were just for sitting on the desk or in your pocket, I think you'd have a point. But, responsiveness in a phone is from the P cores.
I think the 2P + 4E strikes a good balance in a phone, at least for now.

 

[jdubs03]

I think you overestimate the performance of E cores and I strongly doubt you would enjoy using a phone with just E cores, even if there were 6 cores. Most CPU designers have actually done the tests.
I think the 2P + 4E strikes a good balance in a phone, at least for now.

Qualcomm and Mediatek seem to disagree 🙂
But I’d be curious how an A18 Pro would perform with a 2P+6E configuration.

 

[DZero]

I think you overestimate the performance of E cores and I strongly doubt you would enjoy using a phone with just E cores, even if there were 6 cores. Most CPU designers have actually done the tests.

If phones were just for sitting on the desk or in your pocket, I think you'd have a point. But, responsiveness in a phone is from the P cores.
I think the 2P + 4E strikes a good balance in a phone, at least for now.

iPhone's E cores are not the same as the normal ARM e cores.
Those things are on a similar tier than the A7XX processor with A5XX consumption and that says a lot on how well Apple does the things.

 

[FlameTail]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 might be renamed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836948822628651147

Not sure if this is a joke or what.

 

[SteinFG]

Snapdragon 9 gen 4, obviously

 

[jdubs03]

It probably is a good time for a rebrand, considering the X Elite before and its’ Oryon cores.
They had also said they want to get in towards desktop devices/performance, perhaps there’s something on the horizon there as well.

 

[hemedans]

I think you overestimate the performance of E cores and I strongly doubt you would enjoy using a phone with just E cores, even if there were 6 cores. Most CPU designers have actually done the tests.

If phones were just for sitting on the desk or in your pocket, I think you'd have a point. But, responsiveness in a phone is from the P cores.
I think the 2P + 4E strikes a good balance in a phone, at least for now.

Efficiency cores here I refer Phoenix M, Cortex A720, Apple E cores etc not the smallest one cortex A520/A55 etc.

We have test of Cortex A78 vs X1/X2 and cortex A720 vs X4 in both test cortex A720 and A78 were more efficient than P cores at 2W or below. So for device with power budget around 5 to 7W it make sense having more of A720 than cortex X series.

 

[FlameTail]

The Galaxy S24 Ultra powered by the Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 destroys the iPhone 16s powered by A18 Pro in Mrwhosetheboss battery test.

Ranking:
iPhone 15 : 7hr 45min
iPhone 16 : 8hr 19min
iPhone 16 Pro : 8hr 19min
iPhone 16 Plus : 8hr 45 min
iPhone 15 Pro Max : 9hr 35 min
iPhone 16 Pro Max : 11hr 22min
Galaxy S24 Ultra : 12hr 31min

 

[DZero]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 might be renamed.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1836948822628651147

Not sure if this is a joke or what.

Maybe due the 4 supersticion idea.

 

[FlameTail]

Dieshot of Snapdragon XR2+ Gen1 (a AR/VR headset SoC):

Kurnal:

Qualcomm Snapdragon XR2+Gen1(SXR2230P)
A brand new processor, 6-core A78

GPU similar to 8G2, 1536Alus,

NPU (hexgon) is a product of 8gen1

7-way Csi, 4-waydsi

J=Samsung its in 4nm but its 4LPX=SF5
The package is estimated to be fccsp

Diesize=10.28*11.27=115.85mm2