Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[FlameTail]

Qualcomm behaves a lot like Apple IMO.
If Apple can do it, Qualcomm can too.
Never underestimate greed.

Mmm. So what does that mean for the RAM?

 

[Doug S]

What are the chances Snapdragon X Elite will be paired with 8 GB RAM?

Personally, I think Qualcomm should impose a restriction on OEMs to not ship devices with 8 GB. Minimum should be 12 GB. 8 GB is really not enough today, and more so in the future. Especially in the $1000+ segment, which I believe the X Elite is targeting.

Intel kinda did this to an extent with Meteor Lake. To advertise Arc Xe Graphics, OEMs need to ship it with a minimum of 16 GB RAM on a 128 bit bus. No 8 GB / single-channel shenanigans.

Intel's slapped a 16GB dual-channel minimum entry requirement on Core Ultra laptops if you want top gaming performance

To get an 'Arc Graphics' sticker, your Core Ultra laptop has to be dual-channel with 16GB of memory.

www.pcgamer.com

I would argue Intel's limitation may be more about the "dual channel" (to provide more bandwidth for the GPU to perform well) than it is about the memory capacity, and since you'd have to work to have dual channel with only 8 GB of DDR5 they might as well require 16 GB so Windows doesn't bog down if you're running a few things at once.

 

[FlameTail]

It is coming boys🔥

Arm-based Surface Pro 10 and Surface Laptop 6 could outstrip Intel – report

Microsoft might have skipped the Surface Pro 10 and Surface Laptop 6 launch in 2023, but it may just be worth the wait, according to a new report. Windows Central sources say a new Surface Pro 10 will be joined by a new Surface Laptop 6 and both will will “feature significant upgrades.” The...

www.trustedreviews.com

Microsoft might have skipped the Surface Pro 10 and Surface Laptop 6 launch in 2023, but it may just be worth the wait, according to a new report.

Windows Central sources say a new Surface Pro 10 will be joined by a new Surface Laptop 6 and both will will “feature significant upgrades.”

The report mentions better designs and new features and oodles more power and smarts thanks to next generation Intel Core 14th-Gen and Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite processors running on Arm architecture. Both models will boast the latest NPUs.

“I hear the new devices will be announced in the spring and will be marketed as Microsoft’s first true next-gen AI PCs,” writes reporter Zac Bowden.

Spring? Qualcomm said X Elite devices will be shipping in mid-2024.

According to the sources, Microsoft might even be more excited about the Arm-based version of the new Surface models than the traditional Intel-toting devices.

Of course. There is very good reason for it. X Elite > Meteor Lake.

That’s because, the report says, they’ll have a custom version of the Snapdragon X Series chips, which are the source of much excitement.

This is surprising. I thought Qualcomm wouldn't give Microsoft a custom SQ version of the X Elite, like they did for previous 8cx processors.

According to the report, these Arm-based machines are being “purpose built” for a brand new version of Windows (Windows 11?) that’ll be much more AI-focused than anything we’ve seen so far with Copilot and Bing.

This aligns with a previous report, which said Snapdragon X Elite is not compatible with Windows 11. It will ship with the Windows 12(?) build called Germanium.

The report also says these are the first Surface models that’ll seek to match Apple Silicon for battery life, performance and security too. Could this be Microsoft shifting its priorities towards Qualcomm based chips despite its long association with Intel?

Long live WindowsOnARM!

 

[SpudLobby]

Windows on Arm isn’t going anywhere yep, Microsoft is committed. These will be the first Surface devices on Arm to really blow Intel out and they’ll obviously scale from the Pro the Laptop, which would be true of something like an M1/2 as well and is now going to be true of this chip too.

 

[FlameTail]

1:13:15 MLID discusses the Snapdragon X Elite.

I think he had some interesting thoughts about it. He even said he might buy a laptop with one if it turns out to be good.

PS: Folks don't come after me with pitchforks for watching MLID. I just watched the segment about the X Elite and closed the video.

 

[soresu]

He even said he might buy a laptop with one if it turns out to be good

Him and every other Tom, Dick and Harry in the business - whether or not it is truly competitive with other market players it still represents a sea change in the ARM desktop/laptop market that is not controlled by Apple so its worth a look and talking about it.

Also he talks about Qualcomm emphasizing synthetic workloads on SDXE as a negative which is short sighted at best.

It's not exactly surprising that QC are doing this given the lack of significant WoA ports for AAA Windows games to bench against so you are immediately running into binary translation losses on the CPU side on most current games.

Perhaps by the time the platform properly launches we will begin to see some big WoA game ports out there.

 

[eek2121]

Very good, but I was asking if it would be possible to run something like DLSS (which requires matrix processing units), through the NPU only?

Right, DLSS and XeSS use the matrix units that are embedded within the GPU itself.

Did not see anyone answer this (apologies if I overlooked), but my limited understanding is that no, that is not possible yet. Maybe with future iterations.

M

This guy is completely full of crap. No you cannot get a Ryzen chip to average 5W running 8 cores at 3GHz (actual) on an actual meaningful workload. If you measured with the full board power from the power delivery and included DRAM then it’s an even bigger “lmfao no”.

Everything he says is just garbage or bizarrely weird technicalities. Like this is straight up babble.

Flame you gotta just tune these people out lol. This isn’t worth anyone’s time

Without visiting/looking at reddit, is he talking 5W or 5W per core? Because zen will do 3ghz @ 5w per core. Even Zen 2 could do that. 5W for all cores? That is a pipe dream. I don’t have the numbers in front of me, but Zen 3 needed something like 10-12W to hit the low-mid 4ghz range. Zen 4 is even more efficient. The 7840U can sustain all core 3.3ghz @ 38W, which is less than 5W per core and that is a worst case scenario, most workloads don’t push the chip that hard.

Now I want to tinker with my 7950X and my 5800hx…

 

[Thibsie]

1:13:15 MLID discusses the Snapdragon X Elite.

I think he had some interesting thoughts about it. He even said he might buy a laptop with one if it turns out to be good.

PS: Folks don't come after me with pitchforks for watching MLID. I just watched the segment about the X Elite and closed the video.

I don't care about what you watch.
I still think you deserve a pitchfork since you almost begged for it but that's because you talk about it here.

 

[FlameTail]

Qualcomm hit a home run with the Snapdragon 8+ gen 1.

Remember, the 8+ Gen 1 was the half year update to the 8 gen 1. Unlike in previous years where the (+) was simply an overclocked version of the regular chip, Qualcomm ported the 8 gen 1 (Samsung 4LPX) to TSMC N4 to create the 8+ Gen 1.

We all know what a disaster the regular 8 gen 1 was. The 8+ Gen 1 brought a huge performance and efficiency uplift, but at the time I had some doubts. Would it be worth the cost and effort of porting a chip to a another foundry node, especially when the successor to that chip (8gen2) would be coming just 6 months later?

Now it's been 1.5 years, and 8+ Gen 1 has been a stellar success. It powered some great flagship phones in the 2nd half of 2022 such as the ROG Phones and Z Flip/Fold 4.

Then in 2023, it was employed in a lot of "sub-flagship" phones. You know- the $500-$700 segment that sits between midrange and flagship.

And now going into 2024, several smartphone manufacturers will also use the 8+ Gen 1 in their midrange phones.

Oh, and also the 8+ Gen 1 die was used to create the 7+ Gen 2 chip as well.

I think it's very clear now that effort in porting the 8 gen 1 to TSMC was an effort well spent.

 

[FlameTail]

Is Qualcomm's Snapdragon X Elite PC chip legit? We ask the experts

We ask some of the industry's top analysts to weigh in on whether the Qualcomm Snapdragon X Elite platform and the Oryon CPU can succeed in PCs, and why.

www.pcworld.com

Dr. Ian Cutress, chief analyst at More than Moore: “I’ve heard rumors of like 17 devices coming at Computex with this chip. I think that’s more than all other Windows on Snapdragon devices put together. So they’re going at it in a big way — and the fact is that they’ve said that this is a multigenerational roadmap, using the bones of the core for future generations. The only way is up.”

Ooh. 17 devices!? That's hot.

Coming in right before Strix Point.

 

[FlameTail]

https://x.com/Tech_Reve/status/1639770694631444480?s=20

SnapDragon 8 Gen 3.
TSMC N4P.
Geekbench 5.
ST 1800.
MT 6500.

SnapDragon 8 Gen 4.
TSMC N3E.
Nuvia Phoenix L Core 2.
Nuvia Phoneix M Core 6.
Geekbench 5.
ST 2070.
MT 9100.

https://x.com/Tech_Reve/status/1720748052737335352?s=20

8G4 is very powerful. Is it thanks to the 3nm process? Adreno 830 holds a comprehensive 10% performance advantage compared to Apple M2's GPU. In 3DMark Wild Life Extreme, it achieved a score of 7200 points. CPU is also very powerful.
Based on Geekbench 5: Single-core 2000+ and Multi-core 8600.
Based on Geekbench 6: Single-core 2800+ and Multi-core 10000+.

These ST performance numbers are concerning.

2800 points in GB6? Does "Phoenix-L" have no IPC gain over the original "Phoenix" in the X Elite? 2800 points makes it feel like Phoenix-L is the same as Phoenix but clocked at like 3.8 GHz.

This chip is coming 1 year after X Elite announcement, and if they have made no IPC improvements in 1 year, it should be quite concerning.

I know we shouldn't put too much stock on rumours, especially this early as the 8G4 is still 10+ months away. So I'll refrain from making any further judgements. What do you guys think?

 

[gdansk]

I'd worry about it later when we have actual benchmarks from real phones. I am not entirely interested in what test devices can do.

And in either case a 15% improvement isn't nothing.

 

[FlameTail]

And in either case a 15% improvement isn't nothing.

+15% compared to 8G3? Yeah that's good but not great. Cortex X5 could deliver that same improvement. Then what's the use of Oryon? When Qualcomm announced 8G4 will use Oryon CPU, we expected they will finally be competitive with Apple in ST.

2800 in GB6 ST is falling short of the A17's 3000 points. But then 8G4's competition will be A18 and it will be atleast 10% faster, so 3300 points minimum. 3300 vs 2800 doesn't look favourable.

I'd worry about it later when we have actual benchmarks from real phones. I am not entirely interested in what test devices can do.

Yeah, real devices may indeed score higher- and I hope so. But in the meantime let's agree that 2800 ST will not be a good showing for 8G4.

 

[Doug S]

https://x.com/Tech_Reve/status/1639770694631444480?s=20

https://x.com/Tech_Reve/status/1720748052737335352?s=20

These ST performance numbers are concerning.

2800 points in GB6? Does "Phoenix-L" have no IPC gain over the original "Phoenix" in the X Elite? 2800 points makes it feel like Phoenix-L is the same as Phoenix but clocked at like 3.8 GHz.

This chip is coming 1 year after X Elite announcement, and if they have made no IPC improvements in 1 year, it should be quite concerning.

I know we shouldn't put too much stock on rumours, especially this early as the 8G4 is still 10+ months away. So I'll refrain from making any further judgements. What do you guys think?

Maybe they are targeting power reduction in the second gen instead of performance increase, if they figure that's a better route with which to compete with x86 laptops?

 

[FlameTail]

if they figure that's a better route with which to compete with x86 laptops?

The leaked 2800 GB6 ST is for the Snapdragon 8 Gen 4, which is next year's flagship phone chip.

 

[FlameTail]

Here's the Qualcomm timeline:

2023 October:
• Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 announced and released
• Snapdragon X Elite announced

2024 June:
• Snapdragon X Elite released (devices)

2024 October(?):
• Snapdragon 8 Gen 4 announced and released

X Elite uses the Phoenix core.

8 Gen 4 uses Phoenix-L and Phoenix-M.

These are leaked codenames. It remains to be seen what Qualcomm names them publicly, but that's beside the point.

The point is that Phoenix-L in the 8G4 us doing 2800 GB6 ST, which seemingly suggests it has no IPC increase over Phoenix in X Elite.

 

[soresu]

The point is that Phoenix-L in the 8G4 us doing 2800 GB6 ST, which seemingly suggests it has no IPC increase over Phoenix in X Elite.

If so the only reason would be a bad stepping used in benching for their PR slides.

Unless the CPU core is incorrect and it's something else like Cortex X5/Blackhawk.

 

[Thibsie]

Qualcomm hit a home run with the Snapdragon 8+ gen 1.

Remember, the 8+ Gen 1 was the half year update to the 8 gen 1. Unlike in previous years where the (+) was simply an overclocked version of the regular chip, Qualcomm ported the 8 gen 1 (Samsung 4LPX) to TSMC N4 to create the 8+ Gen 1.

We all know what a disaster the regular 8 gen 1 was. The 8+ Gen 1 brought a huge performance and efficiency uplift, but at the time I had some doubts. Would it be worth the cost and effort of porting a chip to a another foundry node, especially when the successor to that chip (8gen2) would be coming just 6 months later?

Now it's been 1.5 years, and 8+ Gen 1 has been a stellar success. It powered some great flagship phones in the 2nd half of 2022 such as the ROG Phones and Z Flip/Fold 4.

Then in 2023, it was employed in a lot of "sub-flagship" phones. You know- the $500-$700 segment that sits between midrange and flagship.

And now going into 2024, several smartphone manufacturers will also use the 8+ Gen 1 in their midrange phones.

Oh, and also the 8+ Gen 1 die was used to create the 7+ Gen 2 chip as well.

I think it's very clear now that effort in porting the 8 gen 1 to TSMC was an effort well spent.

If it is a port it isn't an overclock.

 

[FlameTail]

If it is a port it isn't an overclock.

I think you misunderstood the statement or I should have phrased it better.

 

[Thibsie]

I think you misunderstood the statement or I should have phrased it better.

Maybe

 

[FlameTail]

I hope the Snapdragon X Elite has a clean launch, when it does arrive in laptops in mid-2024.

Saying that after looking at the mess that is the Meteor Lake launch.

 

[SpudLobby]

Maybe they are targeting power reduction in the second gen instead of performance increase, if they figure that's a better route with which to compete with x86 laptops?

I think this is more that the 8 Gen 4 (which is for phones) is just X Elite architecture albeit with a few tweaks for that purpose, and then E Cores derivative of the big cores too.

Keep in mind the timelines here along with the delays they had, it makes sense.

 

[SpudLobby]

+15% compared to 8G3? Yeah that's good but not great. Cortex X5 could deliver that same improvement. Then what's the use of Oryon? When Qualcomm announced 8G4 will use Oryon CPU, we expected they will finally be competitive with Apple in ST.

2800 in GB6 ST is falling short of the A17's 3000 points. But then 8G4's competition will be A18 and it will be atleast 10% faster, so 3300 points minimum. 3300 vs 2800 doesn't look favourable.

Yeah, real devices may indeed score higher- and I hope so. But in the meantime let's agree that 2800 ST will not be a good showing for 8G4.

2800 ST would be fine for the phone chip tbh especially if the power at that point beats the 9400’s X5 by 20-25%. Also the E Cores are something to watch.

We’ll see. They know what the X5 and A730 look like.

 

[SpudLobby]

I also doubt the A18 will be 10% faster lol.

It’s on N3E still, which might have slight parametric node gains but still — and they just had a recent core change & are at like 3.78GHz peak.

No way is it going to be 10% faster on GB6/5 ST composite than the A17 without a significant power increase unless they really pull something out of a hat. They’ve got 16MB of L2 and 24MB of SLC, N3E has no SRAM gains, it’s worse than N3B on that front actually — and they are already using LPDDR5. I just don’t see it. A17 to say, the A19 on N2? Yes, at that point I can see frequency boost ISO-power and cumulative tweaks to the core, maybe lower power RAM too, allowing a nice + 10-13%.

 

[SpudLobby]

https://x.com/curunnil/status/1743255799680663697?s=46

Quote from Ian about 17 X Elite laptops coming at Computex. That is…. More than I expected.

AMD and Intel “launch” far more but they have a wider breadth which often includes gaming laptops, workstations, sub-premium and AMD often have awful availability in North America.

For Qualcomm’s narrow but demanded target market — ultrabooks in the 15-45W range — generally no dGPU, all LPDDR5x of course — this would be a big if they have 10+ good systems from Lenovo, Asus, HP, Dell etc at launch with real availability. There’s a basic bar of variety they can hit and be fine.

And we know the next Surface Pro tablet and Surface Laptop (finally) will also have the X Elite option this year.

Feel like a lot of people are going to eat their words about this and deny they ever doubted it lol