Proof-of-Citizenship Ruling Victory for Honest Vote

[Bowfinger]

Hey, you got it. It sucks that they were born at home, never went to school, never flew on an airplane, never had to go to the Doctor, never opened a bank account or cashed a check, applied for food stamps, never bought a bottle of booze or had a job. Never applied for welfare, drove a car, or even applied for Obamacare.

You're lying again.

1. Born at home -- there are other reasons one may not have an official birth certificate (e.g., age, lost records), or may have difficulty obtaining a certified copy (e.g., cost, born in another state)

2. School -- given that virtually all children start school long before they have a DL or any other state-issued, photo ID, that one's exceptionally dishonest. (If you meant college, that's equally dumb given the millions of people who have never attended.)

3. Flying -- Not everybody flies.

4. Doctor -- My doctor has either never requested an ID, or did so many years ago that I have forgotten. Usually all they care about is my insurance card.

5. Open bank account -- First, someone who already has a bank account may never need to open a new one. I had to make changes to my mother's account a couple of years ago. We discovered it had been opened in 1966, in use ever since.

Second, a current, state-issued photo ID is NOT legally required to open a bank account. That is a myth. By law, banks may set their own rules about how they validate their customers' identity. This can include knowing the customer already. I can confirm this because about two weeks ago I had to open a secondary account for my mother. She and I are both customers at this bank. They did not ask for an ID.

6. Cash a check -- In many places you don't need a current, state-issued, photo ID to cash a check. Grocery stores around here, for example, have their own database of customers. Further, given the widespread proliferation of debit/ATM cards, many people never cash checks anymore.

7. Food stamps -- Not everyone is on food stamps. Also, please provide evidence that a current, state-issued, photo ID is required to obtain food stamps. That seems unlikely given the impacted demographic.

8. Alcohol -- Not everyone buys alcohol. More to the point, many vendors do not require ID of all customers. I personally have been carded exactly twice in my life, both times at concerts with 100% ID rules. I've never been carded buying alcohol at a grocery or liquor store. Never.

9. Job -- A current, state-issued, photo ID may be required for those getting new jobs today, but it wasn't always required. People who got their jobs decades ago aren't affected. Further, not everyone is in the job market, e.g., retired people and students who aren't working.

10. Welfare -- First, not everyone is on welfare. Second, there are multiple forms of welfare. Third, I challenge you to provide evidence that "welfare" requires a current, state-issued, photo ID. Again, given the demographic involved, I am skeptical.

11. Drove a car -- Yes, you do need a state DL to drive a car. Not everybody drives, however, and many elderly people who used to drive don't drive today. As mentioned earlier in this thread, both my mother and mother-in-law are in that camp. They let their licenses expire when they stopped driving.

12. Obamacare -- Doh! As even you can figure out, a huge majority of Americans have not signed up for "Obamacare". Students are covered by parents, employees have employer plans, spouses are covered by their partners, the elderly are on Medicare, and the poor on Medicaid. At this point you're just throwing out random shit desperately hoping something will stick. You failed, 0 for 12.

Now I'm starting to wonder how in the hell I ever got ID myself. However it was, I'm sure it was burdensome. I may even be due some reimbursement for all my trouble. But I might need ID to get that check. Damn.

I can only assume someone had to help you.

 

[her209]

And then you have places like my state where since they already had a photo id law when other states started deciding to get in on the voter suppression, so they made the requirements to get or renew a photo id much more stringent.

The truth is a Government ID doesn't prevent voter fraud. If in order to obtain an ID card for voting, one just need bring document(s) that proves they are a citizen, why couldn't they just bring the same documents to the polling place? Nah, that would make too much sense.

As far as address verification goes, how is the issuing entity going to verify that you do indeed live where you fill out on the form that you live? And if you move every year, do you have to go through the process of updating your address and proving your residence every time? Poor people and students move more often than home owners. Or that you weren't convicted of a crime that now disallows you from voting. Background checks for everyone as someone else pointed out in this thread?

Speaking of students, would students have two voter IDs? One that is for their parents' home address and one for their college or university residence address? Are students even allowed to vote locally or do they have to vote absentee? How do you prevent absentee voter fraud if no one is checking voter IDs before allowing the absentee voter to cast their vote?

Of course, all these voter ID laws mean nothing if the poll workers fail to do their job and/or are crooked to begin with. Examples being, not being able to stop/detect when a voter is impersonating another voter, looking the other way and allowing a voter to vote when they "forgot" their ID, not allowing someone to vote because they "believe" the ID is fake, ballots going missing, and/or downright just filling out the voter form after the voter has left.

 

[simpletron]

The truth is a Government ID doesn't prevent voter fraud. If in order to obtain an ID card for voting, one just need bring document(s) that proves they are a citizen, why couldn't they just bring the same documents to the polling place? Nah, that would make too much sense.

For my state, you're required to bring proof of ID (passport, birth certificate, immigration/naturalization papers), proof of your SSN, and two proof of your Residential Address (bills or other official paperwork sent to your Residential Address) to a Government ID. You're required to give an ID to register to vote, so you bring the same ID to vote.

As far as address verification goes, how is the issuing entity going to verify that you do indeed live where you fill out on the form that you live? And if you move every year, do you have to go through the process of updating your address and proving your residence every time? Poor people and students move more often than home owners. Or that you weren't convicted of a crime that now disallows you from voting. Background checks for everyone as someone else pointed out in this thread?

Speaking of students, would students have two voter IDs? One that is for their parents' home address and one for their college or university residence address? Are students even allowed to vote locally or do they have to vote absentee? How do you prevent absentee voter fraud if no one is checking voter IDs before allowing the absentee voter to cast their vote?

For verify address, see above.

Yes, you require to update/prove your address every time you move(for my state you have 30 days after you move to update your ID and must register at least 30 days before the election).

Students are only allow to be register to vote in one place, just like everyone else and are suppose to register at their primary home address (it can be either parent's or apartment/dorm).

For absentee voting, you're required to attach a copy of your ID or the same documentation to get an ID(see above)

 

[simpletron]

Exactly. Plus there are two other factors that come into play. First, it's relatively easy to get a ride to the polls on election day. Not only are many neighbors also headed to the nearby polls, but in most (all?) areas, the two parties actively offer to provide transportation to people who need it. Finding a ride to a distant DMV, on the other hand, can be much more challenging.

Second, even in those states that will provide a "free" ID, they mostly will not provide the necessary documentation for free. It is still the responsibility of each voter to obtain, pay for, and show that documentation (certified copy of the birth certificate, for example). I would support a photo ID law that guaranteed truly free IDs by coming to voters' homes and obtaining required documents at no charge ... except it's a waste of taxpayer money for a problem that is virtually non-existent.

South Carolina provide free rides to and from the DMV for IDs. Just call a number, they pick up at your door, drive you to the DMV, and drive you back home after you're done. Only 25 people took the offer. I don't buy the "distant" DMV agrument at all.

 

[ivwshane]

South Carolina provide free rides to and from the DMV for IDs. Just call a number, they pick up at your door, drive you to the DMV, and drive you back home after you're done. Only 25 people took the offer. I don't buy the "distant" DMV agrument at all.

Great! That's one state down, only 49 more to go!

 

[MomentsofSanity]

South Carolina provide free rides to and from the DMV for IDs. Just call a number, they pick up at your door, drive you to the DMV, and drive you back home after you're done. Only 25 people took the offer. I don't buy the "distant" DMV agrument at all.

One of the biggest criticisms of South Carolina's new Voter ID law is that about 178,000 South Carolina registered voters don't have the photo ID the law requires to vote, and some of them may not have a way to get to a DMV to get one.

Wednesday, Gov. Nikki Haley and DMV Director Kevin Shwedo announced that the DMV will offer free rides to a DMV office to those citizens.

The free rides will be only on Wednesday, September 28th, during "State Identification Card Day". Citizens who are 18 or older and don't have a state driver's license or ID card will be provided with a ride to a local DMV office and then back home.

http://www.wspa.com/story/21459885/sc-dmv-announces-free-rides-for-voters-who-need-photo-ids

Yes. They offered 178,000 people one day to take advantage. Seems effective to me.

 

[Vaux]

That's BS... if they can't make it to the DMV to get an ID, well I guess they wouldn't be able to make it to the voting booths either.

edit* I see someone already mentioned this in the previous page. Reasoning is, that there are more places to vote than there are to get an ID. Which is nonsense.

 

[Vaux]

Exactly. Plus there are two other factors that come into play. First, it's relatively easy to get a ride to the polls on election day. Not only are many neighbors also headed to the nearby polls, but in most (all?) areas, the two parties actively offer to provide transportation to people who need it. Finding a ride to a distant DMV, on the other hand, can be much more challenging.

Well now all your neighbors need ID's, so you can just catch a ride with your neighbor to get one.

Oh wait, all your neighbors already have ID? You mean they aren't living in the stone age like you are?

 

[boomerang]

You're lying again.

You're wound really tight aren't you? I've known people like yourself as I've gone through life. You've got it a lot worse than the majority of them. You can't let anything go. When you hear something even on the fringes of what is counter to your thinking you are compelled to set them straight by an overpowering urge. What a burden to bear.

The majority that read my post would see that there was enough truth in it that they got the point. They could understand the mild hyperbole, because as you said in your argument numerous times, "not everyone...". Everything I pointed out had some degree of truth to it. But you just.can't.let.it.go. You wriggle and twitch and type in a frenzy because you have deemed that "someone on the internet is wrong".

Keep arguing. I'm no longer listening. Polling shows you to be on the wrong side of this issue by a wide margin. Your viewpoint is that of a wacko fringe minority and there is no sense in entertaining it.

 

[Bowfinger]

You're wound really tight aren't you? I've known people like yourself as I've gone through life. You've got it a lot worse than the majority of them. You can't let anything go. When you hear something even on the fringes of what is counter to your thinking you are compelled to set them straight by an overpowering urge. What a burden to bear.

The majority that read my post would see that there was enough truth in it that they got the point. They could understand the mild hyperbole, because as you said in your argument numerous times, "not everyone...". Everything I pointed out had some degree of truth to it. But you just.can't.let.it.go. You wriggle and twitch and type in a frenzy because you have deemed that "someone on the internet is wrong".

So ... you've got nothing. Got it.

I know people like you too. Religious zealots, defiantly ignorant, immune to fact and reason. Your religion is the GOP, your faith is absolute, and you are wholly devout in your subservience to it.

Keep arguing. I'm no longer listening.

You were never listening. You cannot listen. Your mind is too weak and cannot handle contradictory information. You cower in your propaganda cocoon where you can ignore the inconvenience of reality.

Polling shows you to be on the wrong side of this issue by a wide margin. Your viewpoint is that of a wacko fringe minority and there is no sense in entertaining it.

Ah yes, an appeal to popularity, one of the more intellectually bankrupt logical fallacies. Funny how you ignore that when you're in the distinct minority. The great majority of Americans support raising the minimum wage, for example.

 

[fskimospy]

I like how you guys are now trying to argue about how easy it is for people to get an id while ignoring the fact that still nobody can show any evidence for why voter id should be a requirement at all. Other than to suppress votes of unfriendly constituents of course.

I don't see why this is so hard. Politicians enacting these laws can admit it so why can't you? You want voter id laws because it will make republicans more likely to win elections.

 

[Texashiker]

while ignoring the fact that still nobody can show any evidence for why voter id should be a requirement at all.

Because:

Having a government issued ID is an accepted social norm.

With no ID, chances are that person is not registered to vote.

By not voting the person is ignoring their civic duty.

Chances are the person never served in the military, or they would have a military ID.

People with no ID are probably hiding from back taxes or child support.

Why should parasites be allowed to vote in the first place? Either do your civic duty or find somewhere else to live.

 

[Bowfinger]

Because:

Having a government issued ID is an accepted social norm.

With no ID, chances are that person is not registered to vote.

By not voting the person is ignoring their civic duty.

Chances are the person never served in the military, or they would have a military ID.

People with no ID are probably hiding from back taxes or child support.

Why should parasites be allowed to vote in the first place? Either do your civic duty or find somewhere else to live.

Repeating the same lies over and over don't make them true, Mr. Show Me Your Papers.

 

[Texashiker]

Repeating the same lies over and over don't make them true.

If someone is not willing to take the time to get a government ID, chances are they do not want to take the time to register to vote or serve on a jury.

 

[fskimospy]

Because:

Having a government issued ID is an accepted social norm.

Irrelevant.

With no ID, chances are that person is not registered to vote.

Nonsensical. If they aren't registered there is no vote to cast anyway.

By not voting the person is ignoring their civic duty.

Contradictory. You are attempting to make it harder to fulfill that civic duty, not easier.

Chances are the person never served in the military, or they would have a military ID.

Irrelevant. This isn't starship troopers, you don't need to serve in the military to vote.

People with no ID are probably hiding from back taxes or child support.

Slanderous nonsense.

Why should parasites be allowed to vote in the first place? Either do your civic duty or find somewhere else to live.

Contradictory. You are trying to stop people from voting and then complain about when they don't vote.

 

[Bowfinger]

If someone is not willing to take the time to get a government ID, chances are they do not want to take the time to register to vote or serve on a jury.

You are yet again exactly, factually wrong. The whole basis for this controversy is the millions of Americans who are registered to vote yet lack the current, state-issued, photo IDs dictated by some states. This has been explained to you, I have given you specific anecdotal examples, and someone else linked one of the statistical studies demonstrating this. You refuse to acknowledge all of it solely out of your emotional compulsion to ignore evidence that contradicts your partisan-fueled beliefs. You would pervert the USA into the USSA just to help Republicans win more elections. "Show me your papers, citizen. I have declared it to be your civic duty."

 

[Texashiker]

Irrelevant. This isn't starship troopers, you don't need to serve in the military to vote.

Really? You are going to through some crap like that out there?

People who were in the military know they are required to have their ID on them. In fact, isn't ID part of the uniform? Meaning, are military personal required to carry ID with them all the time?

That training will carry over to their civilian life.

Slanderous nonsense.

And?

I stand by my statement. If someone (disabled aside) does not have a government ID, they are probably hiding from something.

Contradictory. You are trying to stop people from voting and then complain about when they don't vote.

I am complaining about people who ignore their civic duty.

They want to vote but are hiding from the government and do not want to serve on the jury.

How about this, if you show up to vote, you have to register to serve on a jury. I bet less people with no ID show up to vote.

 

[manimal]

How about this, if you show up to vote, you have to register to serve on a jury. I bet less people with no ID show up to vote.

dont expect everyone to view things the same way you do and the world opens up in front of you reborn.



I dont understand the need to disenfranchise large swaths of the population for a non issue.


At least just say what you really mean. Poor people, Weird people, shut in people, remote people, really old people, and anyone thats not exactly like you shouldnt get to vote.

 

[Texashiker]

At least just say what you really mean. Poor people, Weird people, shut in people, remote people, really old people, and anyone thats not exactly like you shouldnt get to vote.

You sir are making false statements.

Do your civic duty:

1 - get a government issued ID.
2 - register to vote
3 - vote
4 - serve on a jury

Those should be the minimum requirements to consider yourself a citizen.

If someone is not willing to do those 4 things, then piss off.

 

[fskimospy]

Really? You are going to through some crap like that out there?

People who were in the military know they are required to have their ID on them. In fact, isn't ID part of the uniform? Meaning, are military personal required to carry ID with them all the time?

That training will carry over to their civilian life.

Irrelevant. Again, this isn't starship troopers. Military service is not a requirement for exercising your rights.

And?

I stand by my statement. If someone (disabled aside) does not have a government ID, they are probably hiding from something.

You are free to stand by your slanderous nonsense all you want.

I am complaining about people who ignore their civic duty.

They want to vote but are hiding from the government and do not want to serve on the jury.

How about this, if you show up to vote, you have to register to serve on a jury. I bet less people with no ID show up to vote.

Uhmm, voter registration records are already one of the sources that the state uses for jury selection. So by registering to vote you are in effect registering to serve on a jury.

It never ceases to amaze me how many basic things about America you don't know.

 

[Texashiker]

Irrelevant. Again, this isn't starship troopers. Military service is not a requirement for exercising your rights.

I never said military service is a requirement.

It is obvious you are either not reading my post, and/or you are being intentionally obtuse.

You are free to stand by your slanderous nonsense all you want.

Slanderous as in what way?

What are those people hiding from? Maybe they owe 18 years of back child support and are hiding from the system.

There are people out there who do that. Do not believe me? Go to a child support court room. See how many dead beat parents could not be found. Watch the attorney general representative tell the mothers their baby daddy could not be found so he could not be served with court papers.

There are people out there who are hiding from the system. Not requiring an ID facilitates their behavior.

Uhmm, voter registration records are already one of the sources that the state uses for jury selection. So by registering to vote you are in effect registering to serve on a jury.

When I updated my drivers license I was given the choice to update my voter information.

Besides laziness, what other excuse do people have for not having a government ID?

It boils down to laziness and lack of personal responsibility.

 

[Bowfinger]

I never said military service is a requirement.

It is obvious you are either not reading my post, and/or you are being intentionally obtuse.




Slanderous as in what way?

What are those people hiding from? Maybe they owe 18 years of back child support and are hiding from the system.

There are people out there who do that. Do not believe me? Go to a child support court room. See how many dead beat parents could not be found. Watch the attorney general representative tell the mothers their baby daddy could not be found so he could not be served with court papers.

There are people out there who are hiding from the system. Not requiring an ID facilitates their behavior.




When I updated my drivers license I was given the choice to update my voter information.

Besides laziness, what other excuse do people have for not having a government ID?

It boils down to laziness and lack of personal responsibility.

Repeating the same lies over and over still doesn't make the true, Mr. Show Me Your Papers.

 

[fskimospy]

I never said military service is a requirement.

It is obvious you are either not reading my post, and/or you are being intentionally obtuse.

If military service isn't a requirement to vote, it has no bearing on this conversation.

Slanderous as in what way?

What are those people hiding from? Maybe they owe 18 years of back child support and are hiding from the system.

There are people out there who do that. Do not believe me? Go to a child support court room. See how many dead beat parents could not be found. Watch the attorney general representative tell the mothers their baby daddy could not be found so he could not be served with court papers.

There are people out there who are hiding from the system. Not requiring an ID facilitates their behavior.

Irrelevant to voting, yet again. If you want people to have IDs in order to pay child support, mandate getting an ID when child support is assessed.

When I updated my drivers license I was given the choice to update my voter information.

Besides laziness, what other excuse do people have for not having a government ID?

It boils down to laziness and lack of personal responsibility.

You don't need an excuse to not have an ID.

 

[Texashiker]

If military service isn't a requirement to vote, it has no bearing on this conversation.

You are being obtuse.

People who served in the military receive training. Part of that training is you carry your ID with you.

Chances are the people who refuse to get an ID never served because they were trained to carry an ID.

Irrelevant to voting, yet again. If you want people to have IDs in order to pay child support, mandate getting an ID when child support is assessed.

You are being obtuse, yet again.

Not requiring people to have an ID allows people to hide from the system.

John Doe - No ID and cash only jobs, the state has a hard time finding me and I get to evade child support and back taxes. But hey, I still get to vote.

You don't need an excuse to not have an ID.

Most people have an excuse to avoid responsibility.

 

[Pens1566]

You are being obtuse.

People who served in the military receive training. Part of that training is you carry your ID with you.

Chances are the people who refuse to get an ID never served because they were trained to carry an ID.




You are being obtuse, yet again.

Not requiring people to have an ID allows people to hide from the system.

John Doe - No ID and cash only jobs, the state has a hard time finding me and I get to evade child support and back taxes. But hey, I still get to vote.




Most people have an excuse to avoid responsibility.

Bullshit. My grandfather was in the AF for 20+ yrs and has no current govt. issued photo id. Go screw.