Proof-of-Citizenship Ruling Victory for Honest Vote

[Gunslinger08]

I think that you should be required to show photo ID to vote, regardless of the prevalence of fraud. I would support a bill in my state to provide free photo ID to anyone over the age of 18 who doesn't have a driver's license.

 

[fskimospy]

I think that you should be required to show photo ID to vote, regardless of the prevalence of fraud. I would support a bill in my state to provide free photo ID to anyone over the age of 18 who doesn't have a driver's license.

So you think we should take steps to reduce in-person voter fraud even if it doesn't exist.

Why?

 

[Gunslinger08]

So you think we should take steps to reduce in-person voter fraud even if it doesn't exist.

Why?

Because any fraud in the most important process of democracy is too much. Requiring a free photo ID doesn't seem like an undue burden for exercising your responsibility as a citizen. I understand we will never completely remove fraud, but requiring an ID is an easy way to stop some of it.

It's similar to requiring ID/background checks for gun purchases in stores. It's not going to catch everyone and there are still several other ways to get guns that you aren't legally allowed to own, but it's an easy way to stop some of it that doesn't place an undue burden on the citizen.

 

[fskimospy]

Because any fraud in the most important process of democracy is too much. Requiring a free photo ID doesn't seem like an undue burden for exercising your responsibility as a citizen. I understand we will never completely remove fraud, but requiring an ID is an easy way to stop some of it.

You aren't listening to what I'm telling you. The amount of in-person voter fraud that we have found after quite a lot of looking for it is functionally *zero*. The percentages are so small it's ridiculous.

If you genuinely believe that any fraud is too much then presumably you are for the universal ban of all forms of absentee balloting. Virtually all voter fraud not undertaken by actual polling personnel takes place through absentee ballots.

So how about this, we work on the nationwide ban of absentee ballots first as they comprise the overwhelming majority of fraud, then we get back to voter ID. Fair?

It's similar to requiring ID/background checks for gun purchases in stores. It's not going to catch everyone and there are still several other ways to get guns that you aren't legally allowed to own, but it's an easy way to stop some of it that doesn't place an undue burden on the citizen.

You can't stop 'some' of a thing that isn't happening.

 

[Gunslinger08]

You aren't listening to what I'm telling you. The amount of in-person voter fraud that we have found after quite a lot of looking for it is functionally *zero*. The percentages are so small it's ridiculous.

If you genuinely believe that any fraud is too much then presumably you are for the universal ban of all forms of absentee balloting. Virtually all voter fraud not undertaken by actual polling personnel takes place through absentee ballots.

So how about this, we work on the nationwide ban of absentee ballots first as they comprise the overwhelming majority of fraud, then we get back to voter ID. Fair?

Sure, come up with a way to make absentee ballots fraud resistant. I don't know how you do that, but anything that can be used to directly affect the outcome of elections should be looked at.

I wish that there was a good way to secure and validate online voting. I think that everyone should vote and making it happen online would probably drastically increase participation, but I can't think of a non-expensive or non-intrusive way to prevent fraud.

 

[fskimospy]

Sure, come up with a way to make absentee ballots fraud resistant. I don't know how you do that, but anything that can be used to directly affect the outcome of elections should be looked at.

I don't think there is a way to make them fraud resistant. Once we eliminate them we will get on the voter ID.

 

[boomerang]

I think that you should be required to show photo ID to vote, regardless of the prevalence of fraud. I would support a bill in my state to provide free photo ID to anyone over the age of 18 who doesn't have a driver's license.

I would as well and some states already do so. When you look at the requirement for just some social programs alone, it starts to become obvious that the number of people of voting age without ID in the country has got to be miniscule. When you take into account the requirements for ID for employment and all the other things in our society requiring ID then the anti-ID argument becomes still more ridiculous. Further, from the left we get proclamations about the burdens of ID, etc. To my recollection, we have never been presented with anything from a documentation perspective. This is just yet another one of many "truisms" we must accept from the left on blind faith.

Lastly this is as hot-button an issue as it gets for the leftist/progressives. There's a reason for that. They like to wrap it up in a lot of victimization bullshit, but everyone else sees right through that. If they think they are fooling the rest of us they are only fooling themselves.

In an ever-growing modern society such as ours, having to present ID to vote is entirely reasonable. I have to do it when I vote.

 

[Texashiker]

in the next post you say that if you don't have a government ID, expect to have your rights taken away.

You can't have it both ways.

I said, if someone does not conduct themselves to accepted social norms, expect to have certain rights and privileges taken away.

Having a government issued ID is an accepted social norm.

You are expected to have an ID to do any number of things in this society - open a bank account, provide health insurance inforamtion and ID at the doctor, cash a pay check, use a debit / credit card,,,,.

 

[fskimospy]

I said, if someone does not conduct themselves to accepted social norms, expect to have certain rights and privileges taken away.

Having a government issued ID is an accepted social norm.

You are expected to have an ID to do any number of things in this society - open a bank account, provide health insurance inforamtion and ID at the doctor, cash a pay check, use a debit / credit card,,,,.

Oh, you could have just said "I'm just making shit up now" and been done with it.

 

[Vic]

Fuck it. Let's just implement the National ID then.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Fuck it. Let's just implement the National ID then.

Too complicated. Let's just do away with voting.

 

[First]

I would as well and some states already do so. When you look at the requirement for just some social programs alone, it starts to become obvious that the number of people of voting age without ID in the country has got to be miniscule. When you take into account the requirements for ID for employment and all the other things in our society requiring ID then the anti-ID argument becomes still more ridiculous. Further, from the left we get proclamations about the burdens of ID, etc. To my recollection, we have never been presented with anything from a documentation perspective. This is just yet another one of many "truisms" we must accept from the left on blind faith.

Lastly this is as hot-button an issue as it gets for the leftist/progressives. There's a reason for that. They like to wrap it up in a lot of victimization bullshit, but everyone else sees right through that. If they think they are fooling the rest of us they are only fooling themselves.

In an ever-growing modern society such as ours, having to present ID to vote is entirely reasonable. I have to do it when I vote.

Can you provide the exact quotes that say that illegal people voted and in large enough numbers to sway elections? I see mentions of registration, but that isn't voting.

Additionally, can you provide any information about what percentage of these votes would have been prevented by the measures sought, in person voter id in particular?

*cough* bump for failed gym owner.

 

[Texashiker]

Oh, you could have just said "I'm just making shit up now" and been done with it.

Making stuff up? Having a government issued ID is a socially accepted norm.

Just like everything else you do in life - have a job, pay taxes, dont play music loud, dont play in the streets, dont do drugs in front of the police station, take care of your kids, go to school, brush your teeth, take a shower or bath,,,,.

We all live our life conforming to what society expects of us.

Having a government ID is no different than serving on a jury or paying your taxes. It is your civic duty as a citizen.

 

[fskimospy]

Making stuff up? Having a government issued ID is a socially accepted norm.

What are you basing this on? Additionally, what are you basing the idea that rights can be taken away based on your level of compliance with this norm on?

 

[Texashiker]

What are you basing this on?

Do you have a government issued ID?

Additionally, what are you basing the idea that rights can be taken away based on your level of compliance with this norm on?

Did you recently crawl out from under a rock? Or, are you so dumb you need everything spelled out for you?

I'll give you a few examples:

Hit your partner, get convicted of domestic battery, lose your right to own a gun. Society made up its mind it will no longer tolerate domestic abuse.

Drink and drive, get arrested, go to jail. Society got tired of drunks killing people, so DWI laws got stronger.

Do not pay your child support you go to jail. Society decided it was no longer going to tolerate dead beat parents.

Smoke crack, got to jail. Society does not want drug heads on our streets.

There are socially accepted norms that citizens are expected to abide by. One of those norms is having a government issued ID.

 

[fskimospy]

Do you have a government issued ID?

Irrelevant. My habits do not equal a cultural norm.

Did you recently crawl out from under a rock? Or, are you so dumb you need everything spelled out for you?

Your turn to insults shows me you are losing the argument.

I'll give you a few examples:

Hit your partner, get convicted of domestic battery, lose your right to own a gun. Society made up its mind it will no longer tolerate domestic abuse.

Drink and drive, get arrested, go to jail. Society got tired of drunks killing people, so DWI laws got stronger.

Do not pay your child support you go to jail. Society decided it was no longer going to tolerate dead beat parents.

Smoke crack, got to jail. Society does not want drug heads on our streets.

There are socially accepted norms that citizens are expected to abide by. One of those norms is having a government issued ID.

I asked for examples of rights that can be taken away due to lack of ID.

 

[Texashiker]

I asked for examples of rights that can be taken away due to lack of ID.

No you did not.

You asked,

Additionally, what are you basing the idea that rights can be taken away based on your level of compliance with this norm on?

You asked about rights in general and compliance with social norms.

I answered your question with several examples.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I'll give you a few examples:

Hit your partner, get convicted of domestic battery, lose your right to own a gun. Society made up its mind it will no longer tolerate domestic abuse.

Drink and drive, get arrested, go to jail. Society got tired of drunks killing people, so DWI laws got stronger.

Do not pay your child support you go to jail. Society decided it was no longer going to tolerate dead beat parents.

Smoke crack, got to jail. Society does not want drug heads on our streets.

There are socially accepted norms that citizens are expected to abide by. One of those norms is having a government issued ID.

Domestic abuse is illegal. Drinking and driving is illegal. Refusing to comply with a court order is illegal. Smoking crack is illegal. In no jurisdiction in this country is failure to have government issued ID illegal. So your analogies fall flat in that regard. Here's a list of crimes; isn't that just like this thing which isn't a crime? No.

 

[Texashiker]

Domestic abuse is illegal. Drinking and driving is illegal. Refusing to comply with a court order is illegal. Smoking crack is illegal. In no jurisdiction in this country is failure to have government issued ID illegal. So your analogies fall flat in that regard. Here's a list of crimes; isn't that just like this thing which isn't a crime? No.

I am not basing my stance on whether something is legal/illegal.

My stance is on accepted social norms; what is acceptable behavior in this society.

Not having a government issued ID is not acceptable. As it is irresponsible.

Every citizen should have a form of government ID and be registered for jury duty. That is your civic duty. If you do not want to do your civic duty, leave.

But you see, a lot of people do not want a drivers license or ID because their county might register them for jury duty.

 

[fskimospy]

No you did not.

You asked,

You asked about rights in general and compliance with social norms.

I answered your question with several examples.

Uhmm, you don't know how to read.

What do the words "this norm" mean to you in the context of what you quoted?

 

[Texashiker]

What do the words "this norm" mean to you in the context of what you quoted?

Since you seem to have a difficult time understanding what a social norm is, I am going to bring in another reason why people should be forced to have government issued ID.

I am going to use myself and someone I knew as an example.

Back in the late 1990s I used to work with a guy who owed something like $20k in back child support. His daughter was around 8 years old and I do not think he had ever paid support. He did not provide health insurance and supported her as little as possible.

To hide from the authorities he worked out of state and did not have a drivers license. His parents would have his utilities put in their name.

The only thing he could not hide was his tax return, which the state took.

What you end up with is a sub-culture of people who do not want to do their civic duties, but want the privileges of being a citizen.

I am going to speculate here, I wonder how many people who complain about not wanting a government ID are trying to hide something? How many are hiding from child support, how many are hiding from back taxes, how many are hiding from jury duty,,,, or some other civic obligation?

 

[fskimospy]

Since you seem to have a difficult time understanding what a social norm is, I am going to bring in another reason why people should be forced to have government issued ID.

I am going to use myself and someone I knew as an example.

Back in the late 1990s I used to work with a guy who owed something like $20k in back child support. His daughter was around 8 years old and I do not think he had ever paid support. He did not provide health insurance and supported her as little as possible.

To hide from the authorities he worked out of state and did not have a drivers license. His parents would have his utilities put in their name.

The only thing he could not hide was his tax return, which the state took.

What you end up with is a sub-culture of people who do not want to do their civic duties, but want the privileges of being a citizen.

I am going to speculate here, I wonder how many people who complain about not wanting a government ID are trying to hide something? How many are hiding from child support, how many are hiding from back taxes, how many are hiding from jury duty,,,, or some other civic obligation?

No, I understand it perfectly well. You're just refusing to answer a simple question. Go ahead and try again.

 

[Bowfinger]

Making stuff up? Having a government issued ID is a socially accepted norm.

Speaking of making stuff up. America is a diverse place. You may consider it a socially accepted norm, coming from your own narrow white bread, middle class, reasonably healthy and mobile life experiences. That means exactly squat to the millions and millions of Americans who come from different backgrounds. You're still not the center of the universe, and nobody cares about your opinion of what is normal.

Just like everything else you do in life - have a job, pay taxes, dont play music loud, dont play in the streets, dont do drugs in front of the police station, take care of your kids, go to school, brush your teeth, take a shower or bath,,,,.

We all live our life conforming to what society expects of us.

Having a government ID is no different than serving on a jury or paying your taxes. It is your civic duty as a citizen.

No, it's not. Indeed, mandatory government IDs used to be something we mocked as a hallmark of oppressive regimes, countries like the USSR and Red China. "Your papers, please." was a punch line, because Americans were free. Now we have people like you pushing to emulate such regimes, eagerly selling out America because you've been duped into attacking a bogeyman.

 

[MixMasterTang]

Since you seem to have a difficult time understanding what a social norm is, I am going to bring in another reason why people should be forced to have government issued ID.

I am going to use myself and someone I knew as an example.

Back in the late 1990s I used to work with a guy who owed something like $20k in back child support. His daughter was around 8 years old and I do not think he had ever paid support. He did not provide health insurance and supported her as little as possible.

To hide from the authorities he worked out of state and did not have a drivers license. His parents would have his utilities put in their name.

The only thing he could not hide was his tax return, which the state took.

What you end up with is a sub-culture of people who do not want to do their civic duties, but want the privileges of being a citizen.

I am going to speculate here, I wonder how many people who complain about not wanting a government ID are trying to hide something? How many are hiding from child support, how many are hiding from back taxes, how many are hiding from jury duty,,,, or some other civic obligation?

Lets take your example and say the person you described above DID have a valid drivers license, I fail to see how ANYTHING you stated above would change.

 

[JockoJohnson]

I am not basing my stance on whether something is legal/illegal.

My stance is on accepted social norms; what is acceptable behavior in this society.

Not having a government issued ID is not acceptable. As it is irresponsible.

Every citizen should have a form of government ID and be registered for jury duty. That is your civic duty. If you do not want to do your civic duty, leave.

But you see, a lot of people do not want a drivers license or ID because their county might register them for jury duty.

I don't agree with most everything you say but you did hit on one point that is true -- it is irresponsible to not have an ID. It is not illegal but definitely irresponsible.

You realize that you are talking to people who seem to want everyone to abdicate all responsibility and let the government be responsible for them. You have no chance of changing their minds by telling them it is irresponsible to not have an ID.