Proof christianity is "evolving" to accept evolution as FACT!

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Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
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81
Originally posted by: sao123
Proof that churches are evolving into a religion that is not christianity...
To be Christian all that is necessary is that you accept the Divinity of Christ as the Son of God. Belief or disbelief in a literal interpretation of Genesis has no bearing on whether or not one is Christian.

ZV
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
0
0
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.

LINK

Do yourself a favor and look up what Evangelical Christians are.

Okay here you go but I dont see how this helps:

LINK

And now you see that Evangelical Christians are only a very, very small part of all Christians. If we go with the "born-again" type Christians as Evangelical, you're talking about a group of very few, die-hard, and very vocal Christians. If you're talking about just Protestants, you're also talking about a rather small amount of Christians.

Like Zenmervolt said, most Christians have no problem with science and religion coexisting. Evolution is no different.


Are you kidding me "very small part," take a look at those statistics again my friend. You make it out like it is 1% while in fact it may be as high as 50% or better.

***********God created humans in present form: 55% of all americans believe that according to the poll.***********

That means that 55% of ALL Americans don't believe in evolution. Now you can say that means a lot of people practicing other religions believe that hence skewing the results but they don't skew it that much. I believe that the population of people calling themselves christians in the USA today is around 70% which means that at least IMO 40% of all christians believe in creationism.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Just me or did it seem that a majority of the churches were UCC, Lutheran, and Methodist? Being raised Lutheran with the other half of the family being a sect of Methodist, I know both are very very similar. The UCC would alternate wed's services during lent with my church, when I went when I was a kid I saw very little difference in that as well.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,445
127
106
Originally posted by: Luthien
Christians do not consider themselves catholics. How do I know this; I have lived with christians my entire life and they think catholics are going to hell. Catholics however it is true do consider themselves christians, lol.

Catholicism is a separate denomination under the umbrella of Christianity. Yeah, a lot of Protestants don't know anything about Catholics and thus assume they're going to hell, but an equal number don't think that at all.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.

LINK

Do yourself a favor and look up what Evangelical Christians are.

Okay here you go but I dont see how this helps:

LINK

And now you see that Evangelical Christians are only a very, very small part of all Christians. If we go with the "born-again" type Christians as Evangelical, you're talking about a group of very few, die-hard, and very vocal Christians. If you're talking about just Protestants, you're also talking about a rather small amount of Christians.

Like Zenmervolt said, most Christians have no problem with science and religion coexisting. Evolution is no different.


Are you kidding me "very small part," take a look at those statistics again my friend. You make it out like it is 1% while in fact it may be as high as 50% or better.

***********God created humans in present form: 55% of all americans believe that according to the poll.***********

That means that 55% of ALL Americans don't believe in evolution. Now you can say that means a lot of people practicing other religions believe that skewing the results but they don't skew it that much. I believe that the population of people calling them christians in the USA today is around 70% which means that at least IMO 40% of all christians believe in creationism.

This poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 885 adults interviewed by telephone November 18-21, 2004. There were 795 registered voters. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus three percentage points for results based on all adults and all registered voters.

And yes, Evangelical Christians are an extremely small percentage of the total population of Christians.

People like you are the reason why CBS runs sensationalist crap like this. To apply a survey of less than 1,000 people to a population of 300million is amazing.
 

TheTony

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2005
1,418
1
0
Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Originally posted by: TheTony

Actually, they've been at odds for almost two centuries, in Northern Ireland, sadly.

Don't be so anglocentric, there was some nastiness right from the start of the Reformation through the French Wars Of Religion (until the Edit de Nantes) culminating in the horrors of the Thirty Years' War that ravaged the continent while England itself had todeal with similar nastiness against Catholic Royalists during the time of Cromwell and his Puritans. The highly regimented and orderly mode of combat and centralization of command and improved training and discipline that followed during the dynastic wars of the late 1600s and 1700s, reflecting the rationalism of Age of Enlightenment, were a direct response to the horrors of the Thirty Years' War.

I'm sure there are more examples than the one I offered. I only tried to provide a timely applicable example.

 

TheTony

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2005
1,418
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: TheTony
This sums it up pretty well, in my opinion.
It does make one error:

Communion in Protestant churches is merely symbolic whereas the Catholic Church believes in the actual digestion of the true Body and Blood of Christ.
Not so. Anglican and Episcopal belief is essentially identical to Catholic belief with regards to Communion. The reason that the Anglican and Episcopal table is open is because the official position of both churches is that the Communion is between man and God, not man and priest, and that God will handle things if someone takes Communion without understanding. This is because we really don't know what God's reaction would be and the position of the Anglican/Episcopal church is that it's worse to deny communion to someone who does understand it than it is to give communion to someone who doesn't.

I should also note that individual churches may differ from the official position of their denomination. Some Lutheran churches, while technically protestant, do not have an open table.

ZV
Damn it, I hit "Quote" instead of "Edit. Sorry.


I agree. As an opinion piece, it does contains inaccuracies. However, it did sum up some basic points fairly succinctly, especially as it pertained to the discussion here.
 

sao123

Lifer
May 27, 2002
12,650
203
106
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: sao123
Proof that churches are evolving into a religion that is not christianity...
To be Christian all that is necessary is that you accept the Divinity of Christ as the Son of God. Belief or disbelief in a literal interpretation of Genesis has no bearing on whether or not one is Christian.

ZV

I disagree...

Jesus was the only person in the bible to speak in parables, and Jesus clearly did not write genesis... Moses did. 2 Timothy says that all scripture is given by God and the bible adamently states that God cannot lie.

So unless you want to call God a liar...
I have no alternative to taking the entire bible as literal.
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
0
0
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.

LINK

Do yourself a favor and look up what Evangelical Christians are.

Okay here you go but I dont see how this helps:

LINK

And now you see that Evangelical Christians are only a very, very small part of all Christians. If we go with the "born-again" type Christians as Evangelical, you're talking about a group of very few, die-hard, and very vocal Christians. If you're talking about just Protestants, you're also talking about a rather small amount of Christians.

Like Zenmervolt said, most Christians have no problem with science and religion coexisting. Evolution is no different.


Are you kidding me "very small part," take a look at those statistics again my friend. You make it out like it is 1% while in fact it may be as high as 50% or better.

***********God created humans in present form: 55% of all americans believe that according to the poll.***********

That means that 55% of ALL Americans don't believe in evolution. Now you can say that means a lot of people practicing other religions believe that skewing the results but they don't skew it that much. I believe that the population of people calling them christians in the USA today is around 70% which means that at least IMO 40% of all christians believe in creationism.

This poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 885 adults interviewed by telephone November 18-21, 2004. There were 795 registered voters. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus three percentage points for results based on all adults and all registered voters.

And yes, Evangelical Christians are an extremely small percentage of the total population of Christians.

People like you are the reason why CBS runs sensationalist crap like this. To apply a survey of less than 1,000 people to a population of 300million is amazing.

Yes, of course polls can be skewed and manipulated so show me your own proving an extremely small percentage of christians are evangelical and explain what you mean percentage wise as extremely small. Then show me statistics on the number of Americans that believe man was created as he is today versus other that demonstrates your extremely small percentage of christians believe in creationism over other and again define extremely small percentage. I bet your arguement will fall flat on it's face. Have fun looking for those statistics.

 

Cerpin Taxt

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
11,940
542
126
Originally posted by: sao123
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: sao123
Proof that churches are evolving into a religion that is not christianity...
To be Christian all that is necessary is that you accept the Divinity of Christ as the Son of God. Belief or disbelief in a literal interpretation of Genesis has no bearing on whether or not one is Christian.

ZV

I disagree...

Jesus was the only person in the bible to speak in parables, and Jesus clearly did not write genesis... Moses did. 2 Timothy says that all scripture is given by God and the bible adamently states that God cannot lie.

So unless you want to call God a liar...
I have no alternative to taking the entire bible as literal.
That's absurd on it's face. First you admit that Jesus'words are not literal, and then you claim that the entire Bible is literal. Aren't Jesus' words part of the Bible?

And FWIW, it is the creationists that make their God out to be a liar, for they claim that he must be deceptive in his handiwork: the universe and the life within it. In other words, unless God is a liar, then the earth must be much older than 10,000 years. Unless God is a liar, then humans and other primates share a common ancestor. It would be deceptive of him to create a universe where things appear to be one way but are in fact another.

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: Luthien
Are you kidding me "very small part," take a look at those statistics again my friend. You make it out like it is 1% while in fact it may be as high as 50% or better.

***********God created humans in present form: 55% of all americans believe that according to the poll.***********

That means that 55% of ALL Americans don't believe in evolution. Now you can say that means a lot of people practicing other religions believe that skewing the results but they don't skew it that much. I believe that the population of people calling them christians in the USA today is around 70% which means that at least IMO 40% of all christians believe in creationism.
Evangelical Christianity absolutely does not constitute 50% of Christianity.

From the statistics here, Evangelical Denominations (counting "Baptist" which is a very diverse denomination that is far from universal in its own beliefs) make up less than 25% of the US population. Christians make up about 65% of the US population. Evangelical Denominations (again counting "Baptist" which is a very diverse denomination that is far from universal in its own beliefs) therefore make up about 39% of Christians. If we remove Baptists (IMO it is appropriate to do), Evangelicals make up less than 10% of the US population and only about 15% of Christians.

ZV
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: Luthien

Yes, of course polls can be skewed and manipulated so show me your own proving an extremely small percentage of christians are evangelical and explain what you mean percentage wise as extremely small. Then show me statistics on the number of Americans that believe man was created as he is today versus other that demonstrates your extremely small percentage of christians believe in creationism over other and again define extremely small percentage. I bet your arguement will fall flat on it's face. Have fun looking for those statistics.

So now we're changing the argument are we? First it's that Christians don't accept evolution, and now it's solely Americans because they're the only group you have any statistics whatsoever on. Since you made the assertion that Christians don't believe in evolution, it really is on your shoulders to prove that. In any case, I'll humor you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Shows out of around 2 billion Christians, only 500 million are Protestant. So we're at 25% there. Baptists and Pentecostals are typically what people refer to as Evangelical Christiants, which makes up roughly 230 million. So we're down to only roughly 12%. Hardly an overwhelming majority of all Christians like you would like us to believe, and relatively a very small number when talking about 2 billion practicing Christians. And that is if we're taking every single Baptist and Pentecostal as Evangelical, an egregious error.


 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
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Originally posted by: sao123
Jesus clearly did not write genesis... Moses did. 2 Timothy says that all scripture is given by God and the bible adamently states that God cannot lie.

So unless you want to call God a liar...
I have no alternative to taking the entire bible as literal.
So Jesus, who is completely, 100%, God, did not write Genesis? It was all in Moses' head and was written independantly of God? Either God (who fully and completely includes Christ Jesus and the Holy Ghost) wrote Genesis or He did not. If Genesis is the Word of God, then it must have been composed by The Word, and The Word is Christ. (John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father?s only son".) To claim that Christ did not write Genesis is to deny the Trinity by excluding Christ from the godhead. If Christ Jesus did not compose Genesis, then God did not compose Genesis, and if God did not compose Genesis, then it is not Divine. To claim that Moses, not Christ, composed Genesis is to deny that Genesis is truly the Word of God.

Furthermore, you are again confusing "true" with "literal". I have already stated that I believe the Bible, in its entirety, to be "true" (ergo, I am not "calling God a liar"), I have also stated that "true" does not mean "literal" and that while I believe the Bible to be "true", I do not believe it to be "literal".

Cheers!

ZV
 

DaShen

Lifer
Dec 1, 2000
10,710
1
0
Originally posted by: TheTony
Originally posted by: DaShen
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Luthien
Nope it isnt pretend and nope they don't think they are losing any battle they justify it as now being understood as part of gods plan. However they are going to hell of course according to the fundamentalists.
Considering that the traditional Rabbinical view has been that there is no contradiction between the theory of Evolution and the Torah (or, to use Christian terms, the Old Testament) I would hardly call this a new or even semi-recent development. I would think that Jews know their own books pretty well and if they don't see a problem with Evolution, why should I?

Just because you think that most Christian groups have opposed evolution does not make it so. The Vast majority of Christians today believe in evolution, and in general the vast majority of Christians have always supported science. While the power structure of the church (note the lack of capitalization) has often opposed science, most actual Christians haven't had any issues with new scientific discoveries.

ZV

60 percent of Americans who call themselves Evangelical Christians, however, favor replacing evolution with creationism in schools altogether, as do 50 percent of those who attend religious services every week.

LINK

Even the last Pope said that evolution had some merits.

And that's where the thread took a tangent - the line between Christianity and Catholicism. Christianity does include Catholicism, but not all Christians are Catholics. This is especially true in terms of belief creation and evolution. Catholics, as a whole, allow for the theory of evolution. So do many other denominations. The discussions to this effect within the Catholic church have been going on for many years, well before the last Pope. I think what you're referring to are statements he'd made, very likely compelled to reiterate the difference between the point of view some protestants/fundamentalists hold today.

I am not Catholic, but we are all Christian, which is sad when people make small issues, big issues. In the grand scheme of things we are all pretty much the same in our core beliefs.
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
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0
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

Yes, of course polls can be skewed and manipulated so show me your own proving an extremely small percentage of christians are evangelical and explain what you mean percentage wise as extremely small. Then show me statistics on the number of Americans that believe man was created as he is today versus other that demonstrates your extremely small percentage of christians believe in creationism over other and again define extremely small percentage. I bet your arguement will fall flat on it's face. Have fun looking for those statistics.

So now we're changing the argument are we? First it's that Christians don't accept evolution, and now it's solely Americans because they're the only group you have any statistics whatsoever on. Since you made the assertion that Christians don't believe in evolution, it really is on your shoulders to prove that. In any case, I'll humor you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Shows out of around 2 billion Christians, only 500 million are Protestant. So we're at 25% there. Baptists and Pentecostals are typically what people refer to as Evangelical Christiants, which makes up roughly 230 million. So we're down to only roughly 12%. Hardly an overwhelming majority of all Christians like you would like us to believe, and relatively a very small number when talking about 2 billion practicing Christians. And that is if we're taking every single Baptist and Pentecostal as Evangelical, an egregious error.

Lol, BigJ I have not changed my arguement at all. I use 55% of all americans as an example within the statistics from my link to make my case it is that simple.

Want some more statistics from the same website you use; here you go!

LINK

And here is the information your looking for since that page is long.

In 2000, a poll by People For the American Way[30] estimated that:

20% of Americans believe public schools should teach evolution only;
17% of Americans believe that only evolution should be taught in science classes ? religious explanations should be taught in another class;
29% of Americans believe that Creationism should be discussed in science class as a 'belief,' not a scientific theory;
13% of Americans believe that Creationism and evolution should be taught as 'scientific theories' in science class;
16% of Americans believe that only Creationism should be taught;
According to a study published in Science, between 1985 and 2005 the number of adult Americans who accept evolution declined from 45 to 40%, the number of adults who reject evolution declined from 48 to 39% and the number of people who were unsure increased from 7% to 21%. Besides the United States the study also compared data from 32 European countries, Turkey and Japan. The only country where acceptance of evolution was lower than in the United States was Turkey (25%).

Again my point is that FAR more than an "Extremely Small Percentage" of Christians believe in creationism and I am absolutely correct.

Why did this come up. It came up because delusioned posters want to believe that. I am showing you that is not the case. Creationism is not a fluke believed by a small minority of weirdos. They are large and in charge and I live with them everyday. Some people are just lucky they don't have to live with retrograde absolutist believers.
 

DaShen

Lifer
Dec 1, 2000
10,710
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: Luthien
Are you kidding me "very small part," take a look at those statistics again my friend. You make it out like it is 1% while in fact it may be as high as 50% or better.

***********God created humans in present form: 55% of all americans believe that according to the poll.***********

That means that 55% of ALL Americans don't believe in evolution. Now you can say that means a lot of people practicing other religions believe that skewing the results but they don't skew it that much. I believe that the population of people calling them christians in the USA today is around 70% which means that at least IMO 40% of all christians believe in creationism.
Evangelical Christianity absolutely does not constitute 50% of Christianity.

From the statistics here, Evangelical Denominations (counting "Baptist" which is a very diverse denomination that is far from universal in its own beliefs) make up less than 25% of the US population. Christians make up about 65% of the US population. Evangelical Denominations (again counting "Baptist" which is a very diverse denomination that is far from universal in its own beliefs) therefore make up about 39% of Christians. If we remove Baptists (IMO it is appropriate to do), Evangelicals make up less than 10% of the US population and only about 15% of Christians.

ZV

I went to a church called Evangelical Free Church for a while when I was goign to college. I wouldn't even equate it to Evangelicals (although I don't consider myself anything but Christian). I would equate it to ignorant people (I call them fundies). Mind you, many of them are of the evangelical denomination, but at least at that church, I found people who were open to free thinking and reason, but maybe that was just a freak case.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

Yes, of course polls can be skewed and manipulated so show me your own proving an extremely small percentage of christians are evangelical and explain what you mean percentage wise as extremely small. Then show me statistics on the number of Americans that believe man was created as he is today versus other that demonstrates your extremely small percentage of christians believe in creationism over other and again define extremely small percentage. I bet your arguement will fall flat on it's face. Have fun looking for those statistics.

So now we're changing the argument are we? First it's that Christians don't accept evolution, and now it's solely Americans because they're the only group you have any statistics whatsoever on. Since you made the assertion that Christians don't believe in evolution, it really is on your shoulders to prove that. In any case, I'll humor you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Shows out of around 2 billion Christians, only 500 million are Protestant. So we're at 25% there. Baptists and Pentecostals are typically what people refer to as Evangelical Christiants, which makes up roughly 230 million. So we're down to only roughly 12%. Hardly an overwhelming majority of all Christians like you would like us to believe, and relatively a very small number when talking about 2 billion practicing Christians. And that is if we're taking every single Baptist and Pentecostal as Evangelical, an egregious error.

Lol, BigJ I have not changed my arguement at all. I use 55% of all americans as an example within the statistics from my link to make my case it is that simple.

Want some more statistics from the same website you use; here you go!

LINK

And here is the information your looking for since that page is long.

In 2000, a poll by People For the American Way[30] estimated that:

20% of Americans believe public schools should teach evolution only;
17% of Americans believe that only evolution should be taught in science classes ? religious explanations should be taught in another class;
29% of Americans believe that Creationism should be discussed in science class as a 'belief,' not a scientific theory;
13% of Americans believe that Creationism and evolution should be taught as 'scientific theories' in science class;
16% of Americans believe that only Creationism should be taught;
According to a study published in Science, between 1985 and 2005 the number of adult Americans who accept evolution declined from 45 to 40%, the number of adults who reject evolution declined from 48 to 39% and the number of people who were unsure increased from 7% to 21%. Besides the United States the study also compared data from 32 European countries, Turkey and Japan. The only country where acceptance of evolution was lower than in the United States was Turkey (25%).

Again my point is that FAR more than an "Extremely Small Percentage" of Christians believe in creationism and I am absolutely correct.

Of course a lot of Christians believe in creationism. It's a foundation of Christianity. The difference is creationism is not the same as biblical creationism or evolutionary creationism. Like when comparing Christianity and Catholicism before, biblical creationism and evolutionary creationism are subsets of creationism.

From the same page you linked:

Theistic evolution

Main article: Theistic evolution

Also known as "evolutionary creationism", this is the general view that, instead of faith being in opposition to biological evolution, some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of modern scientific theory, including specifically evolution. It generally views evolution as a tool used by God, who is both the first cause and immanent sustainer/upholder of the universe; it is therefore well accepted by Christians with strong theistic (as opposed to deistic) convictions. Theistic evolution can synthesize with the day-age interpretation of the Genesis creation account; however most adherents consider that the first chapters of Genesis should not be interpreted as a "literal" description, but rather as a literary framework or allegory. Theistic evolutionism can still be described as "creationism" in holding that divine intervention brought about the origin of life or that divine Laws govern formation of species, but in the creation-evolution controversy its proponents generally take the "evolutionist" side. This sentiment was expressed by Fr. George Coyne, (Vatican's chief astronomer between 1978 and 2006):

...in America, creationism has come to mean some fundamentalistic, literal, scientific interpretation of Genesis. Judaic-Christian faith is radically creationist, but in a totally different sense. It is rooted in a belief that everything depends upon God, or better, all is a gift from God.[19]

While supporting the methodological naturalism inherent in modern science, the proponents of theistic evolution reject the implication taken by some atheists that this gives credence to ontological materialism. In fact, many modern philosophers of science,[20] including atheists,[21] refer to the long standing convention in the scientific method that observable events in nature should be explained by natural causes, with the distinction that it does not assume the actual existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Among other things, it means that science does not deal with the question of the existence of a Creator, and argues neither for nor against it.

Many creationists (in the strict sense) would deny that the position is creationism at all, while on the other hand many scientists support such faiths which allow a voice to their spiritual side.

And for the last time, you keep on going back to Americans. We are NOT talking about Americans. We are talking about Christians. Which is why you originally quoted the Evangelical Christian statistic in your first post with the CBS link. When you could no longer substantiate that, you switched to Americans.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
Originally posted by: DaShen
I went to a church called Evangelical Free Church for a while when I was goign to college. I wouldn't even equate it to Evangelicals (although I don't consider myself anything but Christian). I would equate it to ignorant people (I call them fundies). Mind you, many of them are of the evangelical denomination, but at least at that church, I found people who were open to free thinking and reason, but maybe that was just a freak case.
My best friend went to an E-Free church for several years and from what I've seen and heard of the group, I agree with your point regarding this particular small denomination.

However, as you point out, one is more likely to encounter ignorant or closed-minded people within the movements commonly referred to by outsiders as "Evangelical" and I'm playing with the terminology as it is most commonly used in order to avoid having my posts become small novels to allow me to deal with the minutae of slight differences among smaller sects. I do apologise for instances where I paint with too broad a brush.

ZV
 

Luthien

Golden Member
Feb 1, 2004
1,721
0
0
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Luthien

Yes, of course polls can be skewed and manipulated so show me your own proving an extremely small percentage of christians are evangelical and explain what you mean percentage wise as extremely small. Then show me statistics on the number of Americans that believe man was created as he is today versus other that demonstrates your extremely small percentage of christians believe in creationism over other and again define extremely small percentage. I bet your arguement will fall flat on it's face. Have fun looking for those statistics.

So now we're changing the argument are we? First it's that Christians don't accept evolution, and now it's solely Americans because they're the only group you have any statistics whatsoever on. Since you made the assertion that Christians don't believe in evolution, it really is on your shoulders to prove that. In any case, I'll humor you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch...ian_denominations_by_number_of_members

Shows out of around 2 billion Christians, only 500 million are Protestant. So we're at 25% there. Baptists and Pentecostals are typically what people refer to as Evangelical Christiants, which makes up roughly 230 million. So we're down to only roughly 12%. Hardly an overwhelming majority of all Christians like you would like us to believe, and relatively a very small number when talking about 2 billion practicing Christians. And that is if we're taking every single Baptist and Pentecostal as Evangelical, an egregious error.

Lol, BigJ I have not changed my arguement at all. I use 55% of all americans as an example within the statistics from my link to make my case it is that simple.

Want some more statistics from the same website you use; here you go!

LINK

And here is the information your looking for since that page is long.

In 2000, a poll by People For the American Way[30] estimated that:

20% of Americans believe public schools should teach evolution only;
17% of Americans believe that only evolution should be taught in science classes ? religious explanations should be taught in another class;
29% of Americans believe that Creationism should be discussed in science class as a 'belief,' not a scientific theory;
13% of Americans believe that Creationism and evolution should be taught as 'scientific theories' in science class;
16% of Americans believe that only Creationism should be taught;
According to a study published in Science, between 1985 and 2005 the number of adult Americans who accept evolution declined from 45 to 40%, the number of adults who reject evolution declined from 48 to 39% and the number of people who were unsure increased from 7% to 21%. Besides the United States the study also compared data from 32 European countries, Turkey and Japan. The only country where acceptance of evolution was lower than in the United States was Turkey (25%).

Again my point is that FAR more than an "Extremely Small Percentage" of Christians believe in creationism and I am absolutely correct.

Of course a lot of Christians believe in creationism. It's a foundation of Christianity. The difference is creationism is not the same as biblical creationism or evolutionary creationism. Like when comparing Christianity and Catholicism before, biblical creationism and evolutionary creationism are subsets of creationism.

From the same page you linked:

Theistic evolution

Main article: Theistic evolution

Also known as "evolutionary creationism", this is the general view that, instead of faith being in opposition to biological evolution, some or all classical religious teachings about God and creation are compatible with some or all of modern scientific theory, including specifically evolution. It generally views evolution as a tool used by God, who is both the first cause and immanent sustainer/upholder of the universe; it is therefore well accepted by Christians with strong theistic (as opposed to deistic) convictions. Theistic evolution can synthesize with the day-age interpretation of the Genesis creation account; however most adherents consider that the first chapters of Genesis should not be interpreted as a "literal" description, but rather as a literary framework or allegory. Theistic evolutionism can still be described as "creationism" in holding that divine intervention brought about the origin of life or that divine Laws govern formation of species, but in the creation-evolution controversy its proponents generally take the "evolutionist" side. This sentiment was expressed by Fr. George Coyne, (Vatican's chief astronomer between 1978 and 2006):

...in America, creationism has come to mean some fundamentalistic, literal, scientific interpretation of Genesis. Judaic-Christian faith is radically creationist, but in a totally different sense. It is rooted in a belief that everything depends upon God, or better, all is a gift from God.[19]

While supporting the methodological naturalism inherent in modern science, the proponents of theistic evolution reject the implication taken by some atheists that this gives credence to ontological materialism. In fact, many modern philosophers of science,[20] including atheists,[21] refer to the long standing convention in the scientific method that observable events in nature should be explained by natural causes, with the distinction that it does not assume the actual existence or non-existence of the supernatural. Among other things, it means that science does not deal with the question of the existence of a Creator, and argues neither for nor against it.

Many creationists (in the strict sense) would deny that the position is creationism at all, while on the other hand many scientists support such faiths which allow a voice to their spiritual side.

And for the last time, you keep on going back to Americans. We are NOT talking about Americans. We are talking about Christians. Which is why you originally quoted the Evangelical Christian statistic in your first post with the CBS link. When you could no longer substantiate that, you switched to Americans.


LOL, you have twisted it now referencing the creationism being discussed which was clearly implied to be Christian Creationism to evolutionary creationism. Sorry, my friend but you misread the discussion.

As you say, "Of course a lot of Christians believe in creationism. It's a foundation of Christianity. " Nuff said.
 

TheTony

Golden Member
Jun 23, 2005
1,418
1
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Originally posted by: DaShen
I am not Catholic, but we are all Christian, which is sad when people make small issues, big issues. In the grand scheme of things we are all pretty much the same in our core beliefs.

It's obvious from this thread that some folks believe that some Christians aren't actually so. I don't believe either (that point or the original discsussion, to a lesser extent) is a small issue. To frame that belief (interpretation of Chistianity) as wider fact is inherently misleading and why I (and I'm sure others) replied.

I'd mostly agree with your assessment, despite the assertions that undermine that, in this thread.

Originally posted by: DaShen
I went to a church called Evangelical Free Church for a while when I was goign to college. I wouldn't even equate it to Evangelicals (although I don't consider myself anything but Christian). I would equate it to ignorant people (I call them fundies). Mind you, many of them are of the evangelical denomination, but at least at that church, I found people who were open to free thinking and reason, but maybe that was just a freak case.

As has been stated, the term Evangelical is used by several different groups, with differing ideas.

 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
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Originally posted by: Luthien
As you say, "Of course a lot of Christians believe in creationism. It's a foundation of Christianity. " Nuff said.
You misinterpret him, and you do so intentionally. The "Creationism" referenced in his quote quite clearly includes Evolutionary Creationism. You're not stupid enough to have missed that, so you must be intentionally misinterpreting him in order to give the illusion that he is agreeing with you.

ZV
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
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Originally posted by: Luthien
LOL, you have twisted it now referencing the creationism being discussed which was clearly implied to be Christian Creationism to evolutionary creationism. Sorry, my friend but you misread the discussion.

As you say, "Of course a lot of Christians believe in creationism. It's a foundation of Christianity. " Nuff said.

It really is no use with people like you. You refuse to look past your narrow idea of what Christianity is, and it truly is sad.

Hell, if a person asked me if I believe in creationism, I'd say yes. Do I believe in strict/biblical creationism? Absolutely not. I believe in evolutionary creationism...which means I believe in evolution! Hey what do you know!