Profit-rich Toyota threatens Big Three

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: rufruf44

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: tcsenter

Originally posted by: Dacalo
yea i was discussing this with my management professor

he said american motor companies have placed themselves in a situation that would doom them unless they do something extraordinary (well, the japanese car companies have placed the american companies into that situation )

Well your management professor doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall, and you can tell him I said so.

If Flint's Buick City were still open, or if Chevrolet Truck and Bus hadn't only recently gone through some sweeping changes, I'd show you first hand exactly what happened to the domestic auto industry.

The unions forced the Big Three to pay some of the highest wages and comprehensive benefits to a massive workforce of fall-down drunks, drug addicts, and illiterates that the company could not get rid of because the union was simply too powerful and had the domestic auto industry solidly over a barrel for about 30 - 40 years.

....

This is one of the reasons why i hate unions so much. At their peak they weilded MONOPOLY power. I just don't understand why no one else sees this. MONOPOLY power always leads to disaster. "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely"

Heh, can't they just fired everyone those UAW worker one plant at a time and replace them with non-union ? There's enough earnest, hard working people in this country thats looking for a decent job, which is much better than their lazy brethren.

hehehe, guess you didn't read the LONG union post above.

and NO, at the time they couldn't just fire workers at will. Unions had an EXTREMELY tight hold on employment at auto plants, it was closer to being Mafia than it was a legitimate organization. if the movies are correct the mob was in VERY tight with the unions.

unions aren't nearly as strong now as they were in the '70s, they've had to make concessions.

 

[Ferocious]

Japan and Europe auto companies are heavily unionized.

Better quality overall comes from a better philosophy by management about business. They look down the road and not strictly at next quarter's shareholder meeting.

 

[dannybek]

The politics behind the Japanese car is race and nationality.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Japan and Europe auto companies are heavily unionized.

Better quality overall comes from a better philosophy by management about business. They look down the road and not strictly at next quarter's shareholder meeting.

to say they are unionized in Japan is LUDICROUS because it implies unionization in Japan is somewhat equivalent to unionization in the US.

In japan there is an EXTREMELY high level of loyalty that has NOTHING to do with management styles and EVERYTHING to do with culture. Sense of duty, responsibility, obedience, social conformity all play a strong part in it. there is also loyalty both ways, the employer is loyal to his employees also. for years no japanese corporation EVER fired an employee. they always kept their employees on staff. even if the employee was no longer usefull. however for the employee this was an embarrassing situation so he would find ways to make himself usefull.

to try and compare Japan and US is EXTREMELY difficult because you have to redefine most of the terminology used based upon the respective cultures. The very HOMOGENIETY of the Japanese culture is it's STRENGTH and WEAKNESS. Japanese will never surpass the US for ingenuity, creativity, Leaps of thought . . .

however by the same token the US will never be able to meet the level of quality you get in Japan.

they are mutually exclusive values. IF you value individualism and creativity then you will grow a culture of free thinkers who just will never be good at ROTE labor. In japan Society is placed above the individual, Each individual considers himself part of a greater whole and individualism and free thinking is discouraged hence Quality control is easier BUT Ingenuity and Creativity are suppressed.

 

[Leetman]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Strange, JD Power is the ultimate reference for auto reliability as long as it puts the fanbo...errr, Japanese auto enthusiasts picks on top. When the Impala is ahead of the Camry, it's not a reliable reference.

Interesting...

Funny isn't it?

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Leetman

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Strange, JD Power is the ultimate reference for auto reliability as long as it puts the fanbo...errr, Japanese auto enthusiasts picks on top. When the Impala is ahead of the Camry, it's not a reliable reference.

Interesting...

Funny isn't it?

wasn't GM ranked VERY high on the last JD Powers??

 

[Leetman]

I have no idea, I dont look at it, and didn't say i trusted in it.

It's just the Toyota fanboys were preaching it until it said a chevy > a toyota.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Leetman
I have no idea, I dont look at it, and didn't say i trusted in it.

It's just the Toyota fanboys were preaching it until it said a chevy > a toyota.

Originally posted by: Leetman
I have no idea, I dont look at it, and didn't say i trusted in it.

It's just the Toyota fanboys were preaching it until it said a chevy > a toyota.

all i know is, i've only owned american cars.

During the 4 years i had a Mustang and my dad had an Accord, i spent ZERO dollars, except when i hit a telephone pole, on the car and my dad replaced 3 clutches, had various other nick nack problems.

then later on, I had and Intrigue and my dad had a Ford Taurus, he drove it for 70 miles with a frozen radiator (he had forgotten to winterize his car) and the engine froze. and he's complaining about how fords were worse than Hondas. and during the 5 yrs i've had my intrigue it has had ZERO problems.

Now, i'm not saying that my experience is the end all of statistics. i realize that it is wayy to small a sample size to draw conclusions.

BUT it seems to me cars are like computers, USER error is more likely to cause problems than anything else. How many times have i been called on site to help out a user cause of a "VIRUS" and it turns out NOT to be a virus but simply USER error.

Cars are the same way, more of it is user error than manufacturer faults.

 

[Analog]

I personally would never buy a Japanese car.

American all the way.

 

[tcsenter]

Originally posted by: Ferocious
Japan and Europe auto companies are heavily unionized.

Better quality overall comes from a better philosophy by management about business. They look down the road and not strictly at next quarter's shareholder meeting.

lol! That reminds me of the 'standard union line' that people in entire different labor pools hundreds of miles away from any unionized workplaces and do not compete in the labor pool with unions on any level enjoy better wages, benefits, and working conditions because some union, somewhere, very far away, is driving those things higher for everyone. So even if you aren't unionized and don't particularly like unions, you have a union to thank because someone isn't beating you daily at work.

The American trade and manufacturing union experience belies the notion that productivity and work ethic flows from how well management treats its employees. You will not find any more uneducated and unskilled workers enjoying higher wages, better benefits, better retirement, and better work conditions than the American autoworker, and all that got General Motors in return was reinforcing in the minds of its workers that they could get away with murder and taking union leaders to new levels of intoxicating greed and power.

I mean that almost literally, the standing joke among autoworkers themselves was that you would have to commit murder in order to get fired from Generous Motors, and even then it would have to be committed on company property, because what you do on your own time is your own business, so sayeth the union.

The difference between the Japanese and his US counterpart is that the Japanese worker himself has a strong code of ethical conduct which is not 'instilled' by management but by society.

In Japan it would be a disgrace to leave your job at lunch time, go to the bar, not return and have your buddies punch you out. In the US it is not merely tolerated, it's something that is celebrated; you get high fives from a couple of your buddies and you all have a good snicker about it. Only when you're confronted on this behavior and forced to defend it, do you then attempt to rationalize it by saying 'well if the company would treat us better and pay us more, then I wouldn't do that' (blame the victim).

Nevermind that one might already enjoy some of the best wages, benefits, and working conditions in the industrialized world; it ain't enough, it's never enough so long as someone else has it better, somewhere.

To underscore this mentality, I was catching up with a couple friends a few years ago that I hadn't seen in about six years. One had found a job with the county road commission and department of public works as heavy equipment operator (heavy snow plows, road graters, etc.).

He snickered about working on average no more than four hours per day and getting paid $26.00 an hour for a full eight hour day. During his probationary period, his trainer actually instructed him on how to not get caught sleeping on the job, warning him not to sleep in his truck within view of the public because when tax payers see public workers slacking off they make angry phone calls to city officials. Notice the warning was not 'don't sleep on the job', but rather 'don't get caught'.

Upon hearing this, the other friend quickly commented that the only reason people complain was because they were jealous and couldn't stand the fact that they don't have a job where they can sleep and get paid $26.00 an hour, whereas the other quickly confirmed that view ("yep, exactly").

I was kind of taken back by this little masturbatory exchange, though I probably should have expected it from these two jokers. Having a work ethic and expecting that your tax dollars are spent prudently is 'jealousy'? I then remembered why I hadn't seen these two 'friends' in so many years and hopefully won't see either of them again.

I have been told by some reasonable individuals that 'good' unions do in fact exist. I'll have to take their word for it, because after growing-up in a militant union state, home and birthplace of the UAW and Teamsters, whose immediate and extended family members were union members, and after being a member of two unions myself, I've have never actually witnessed one to date.

 

[Moonbeam]

I love how North and South Japan are poised to destroy each other in a Nuclear war or how the repress Tibet. Yup them Japanese are a bunch of savages. No wonder their cars have the prestige of a Hyundai. That damn Japanese government won't admit to past wrong doing. I just hate that. I want to kill that government, but it's just a structure so I want to kill the Japanese people instead. They didn't say they are sorry. They have to die. You should never be allowed to live unless you pay reparations to your slaves and give the Indians back all their land. You filthy scum. I hope you die. Just wait tell the Annianni of Fomahaut come back to check on the progress of their Neanderthal.

Of course the irrational prejudice that bozak will never change is just irrationality of a more refined kind. It's irrationality without rationalization. Once you see you are insane you have an option. You can submit to it or you can feel the pain that made you a fool.

A car is a way to get from A to B. Toyota does that real well.


Of course in the rarefied and objective world in which I orbit, everybody knows that a Lexus is a pale and pathetic shadow of a Cadillac DeVille. The latter is a piece of heaven come to earth. A Lexus is just a car.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I love how North and South Japan are poised to destroy each other in a Nuclear war or how the repress Tibet. Yup them Japanese are a bunch of savages. No wonder their cars have the prestige of a Hyundai. That damn Japanese government won't admit to past wrong doing. I just hate that. I want to kill that government, but it's just a structure so I want to kill the Japanese people instead. They didn't say they are sorry. They have to die. You should never be allowed to live unless you pay reparations to your slaves and give the Indians back all their land. You filthy scum. I hope you die. Just wait tell the Annianni of Fomahaut come back to check on the progress of their Neanderthal.

Of course the irrational prejudice that bozak will never change is just irrationality of a more refined kind. It's irrationality without rationalization. Once you see you are insane you have an option. You can submit to it or you can feel the pain that made you a fool.

A car is a way to get from A to B. Toyota does that real well.


Of course in the rarefied and objective world in which I orbit, everybody knows that a Lexus is a pale and pathetic shadow of a Cadillac DeVille. The latter is a piece of heaven come to earth. A Lexus is just a car.

WTF are you talking about?? the only hatred i feel are towards morons like you who babble on about NOTHING, make NO POINT, Get all the facts wrong and then feel morally superior because you outwitted everyone else.

 

[Eli]

Wow, this thread sure did blow up.

 

[LeeTJ]

Originally posted by: Eli
Wow, this thread sure did blow up.

ok

you help me out. what did moonbeam say??

 

[Gulzakar]

 

[Gulzakar]

American Auto companies need to put more effort in their QC.

That, and the desgin of the car itself. It's a pretty sad excuse.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Leetman
I have no idea, I dont look at it, and didn't say i trusted in it.

It's just the Toyota fanboys were preaching it until it said a chevy > a toyota.

Originally posted by: Leetman
I have no idea, I dont look at it, and didn't say i trusted in it.

It's just the Toyota fanboys were preaching it until it said a chevy > a toyota.

all i know is, i've only owned american cars.

During the 4 years i had a Mustang and my dad had an Accord, i spent ZERO dollars, except when i hit a telephone pole, on the car and my dad replaced 3 clutches, had various other nick nack problems.

then later on, I had and Intrigue and my dad had a Ford Taurus, he drove it for 70 miles with a frozen radiator (he had forgotten to winterize his car) and the engine froze. and he's complaining about how fords were worse than Hondas. and during the 5 yrs i've had my intrigue it has had ZERO problems.

Now, i'm not saying that my experience is the end all of statistics. i realize that it is wayy to small a sample size to draw conclusions.

BUT it seems to me cars are like computers, USER error is more likely to cause problems than anything else. How many times have i been called on site to help out a user cause of a "VIRUS" and it turns out NOT to be a virus but simply USER error.

Cars are the same way, more of it is user error than manufacturer faults.

i'll agree with that. it was user error of me to take my last car over to midas for a 100,000 mile service. if i hadn't done that they probably wouldn't have broken the transmission and i might still be driving it.

 

[UNCjigga]

T
O
Y
O
T
A

TOYOTA

You will now return to your regularly scheduled thread topic...

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: LeeTJ

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I love how North and South Japan are poised to destroy each other in a Nuclear war or how the repress Tibet. Yup them Japanese are a bunch of savages. No wonder their cars have the prestige of a Hyundai. That damn Japanese government won't admit to past wrong doing. I just hate that. I want to kill that government, but it's just a structure so I want to kill the Japanese people instead. They didn't say they are sorry. They have to die. You should never be allowed to live unless you pay reparations to your slaves and give the Indians back all their land. You filthy scum. I hope you die. Just wait tell the Annianni of Fomahaut come back to check on the progress of their Neanderthal.

Of course the irrational prejudice that bozak will never change is just irrationality of a more refined kind. It's irrationality without rationalization. Once you see you are insane you have an option. You can submit to it or you can feel the pain that made you a fool.

A car is a way to get from A to B. Toyota does that real well.


Of course in the rarefied and objective world in which I orbit, everybody knows that a Lexus is a pale and pathetic shadow of a Cadillac DeVille. The latter is a piece of heaven come to earth. A Lexus is just a car.

WTF are you talking about?? the only hatred i feel are towards morons like you who babble on about NOTHING, make NO POINT, Get all the facts wrong and then feel morally superior because you outwitted everyone else.

you mean your angry because his post went over your head?

by moonbeam standards that post was rather simple.

 

[mAdD INDIAN]

Ok this post is not so much about cars, but about the inherent differences between Japanese and US car companies, which leads to differences in products. I talked about this earlier in this thread, but after reading it again, it wasn't very clear.

The major differences between a US auto manufacturer and a Japanese auto manf. is the way they are managed. There is A LOT of politics in the US auto companies that hinder the development of the car. A person is regarded as being powerful by the number of people under him, rather than what he has done for the company. A bit more on this later.

Japanese auto manf. don't really worry about politics. They form small teams which include sales, marketing, and more importantly, the engineers and designers which work on a project. Once the management decides what kind of car to make, the small teams are told to work on their own WITHOUT input from the upper management. This increases efficiencly immensely since they don't have to change designs midway due to upper management. In short, the suits don't have any control over the development once it is has started. Btw, Chrysler learnt this since they formed a "Honda team" which analyzed how Honda operated. They reported their findings back to Chrysler, however the company was not willing to change (read: the executives did not want to give up their power)

This is very different from how American companies were run. The management would often interrupt the development at any time. For example, Lee Iacocca decided what kind of grill was used, the position of the logos, what kind of engine went it, etc.... The management did not want to give up that feeling of power and control over the products, which led to the company's inefficiency and lack of quality. The cars were often hodge-podge of different styles and designs since different people would change parts of the car during design. There was one continuous and cohesive development process as the Japanese had due to only one team working on it.

Hope this made sense and gave an insight on why the Japanese car companies are soo profitable.

 

[Moonbeam]

Lean manufacturing and the Toyota Production System

Note the mention of Edward Deming. Americans are cowboy, Japanese are a team. The average IQ in Japan is 107. The me me me is replaced by the we we we.

 

[puffpio]

i believe toyota f1's budget is smaller than ferrari's, although that might change next year since Giovanni Agnelli (spelling?)died

Cristiano da Matta scored some points for Toyota in Spain last weekend

 

[oddjob303]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: MacGaven
Toyota, those ricers aren't going to carry you forever!

LOL, you're getting Toyota mixed up with Honda. Toyota doesn't have much of a ricer crowd.

I'd have to agree

Dont see many riced is300's or many riced celicas on the road