Pregnant nurse fired for not taking flu vaccine

[Texashiker]

You are lying again. The vaccine went through all proper testing,

From the article in the opening post,

'should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed' because there are no tests to show the effects

I'll be interested in your "expert" rebuttal.

You linked to a question and answer session.

The woman in question had previous miscarriages.

Show me a study of the flu vaccine being tested on women with a high risk of miscarriage.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Y

From the article in the opening post,

I understand that the Daily Mail and those using that quote don't know what they are talking about so I'll explain it once.

There are mandated product inserts which outline various "pregnancy categories". There is required language associated with each category.

Inactivated flu vaccines are category "B", and here is the official mandated language associated with it.

Animal reproduction studies have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus and there are no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women OR Animal studies have shown an adverse effect, but adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women have failed to demonstrate a risk to the fetus in any trimester.

Let me give you a direct quote regarding the vaccine that would be given to pregnant women, from the CDC, not the Daily Mail.

Influenza (Inactivated)
Women in the second and third trimesters of pregnancy are at increased risk for hospitalization from influenza. Because vaccinating against influenza before the season begins is critical, and because predicting exactly when the season will begin is impossible, routine influenza vaccination is recommended for all women who are or will be pregnant (in any trimester) during influenza season, which in the United States is usually early October through late March. 5

That is the definitive statement regarding this issue. Continued monitoring has demonstrated that pregnancy is not a concern.

In other words there is no medical reason that she could not have gotten a flu shot and many reasons why she should.

Now you can go out and find products which are not for use doing pregnancy, but that's elementary. A health care practitioner needs to know the difference or shouldn't be practicing.

So is she stupid or dishonest because there's no third choice. I wouldn't let someone so ignorant anywhere near my child.

 

[Brovane]

Y

I understand that the Daily Mail and those using that quote don't know what they are talking about so I'll explain it once.

There are mandated product inserts which outline various "pregnancy categories". There is required language associated with each category.

Inactivated flu vaccines are category "B", and here is the official mandated language associated with it.



Let me give you a direct quote regarding the vaccine that would be given to pregnant women, from the CDC, not the Daily Mail.




That is the definitive statement regarding this issue. Continued monitoring has demonstrated that pregnancy is not a concern.

In other words there is no medical reason that she could not have gotten a flu shot and many reasons why she should.

Now you can go out and find products which are not for use doing pregnancy, but that's elementary. A health care practitioner needs to know the difference or shouldn't be practicing.

So is she stupid or dishonest because there's no third choice. I wouldn't let someone so ignorant anywhere near my child.

As I have said previously the CYA language on the outside of the box for the vaccine along with two previous miscarriages produced a lot of anxiety for this woman that taking the vaccine could possibly harm the fetus she was carrying. I could see how easily a woman in her situation could be alarmed and skip the flu vaccine for that season looking at everything involved in this situation.

 

[Texashiker]

So is she stupid or dishonest because there's no third choice. I wouldn't let someone so ignorant anywhere near my child.

Show me a study where the vaccine has been tested for high risk pregnancies.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Show me a study where the vaccine has been tested for high risk pregnancies.

VAERS tracks adverse events so if there's problem there's data and not just for pregnancy. There's no problem. Be my guest and find it. Also while you are at it there's the CDC which watches it all. Give then a call and tell them they are doing it wrong.

You don't like vaccines and science won't stand in your way. Your world is flat and I've wasted enough time. Anyone with basic science comprehension knows you haven't a leg to stand on so we'll stick a fork in this. It's done.

 

[Brovane]

VAERS tracks adverse events so if there's problem there's data and not just for pregnancy. There's no problem. Be my guest and find it. Also while you are at it there's the CDC which watches it all. Give then a call and tell them they are doing it wrong.

You don't like vaccines and science won't stand in your way. Your world is flat and I've wasted enough time. Anyone with basic science comprehension knows you haven't a leg to stand on so we'll stick a fork in this. It's done.

Which the Vaccine maker then muddles all this up by putting CYA Language on the outside of the packaging for the vaccine that raises question as to the safety of the vaccine for somebody that is pregnant.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Which the Vaccine maker then muddles all this up by putting CYA Language on the outside of the packaging for the vaccine that raises question as to the safety of the vaccine for somebody that is pregnant.

There's nothing muddled. Pregnancy categories are defined by law and the language mandated. Those of us in health care should be no more confused by this than a driving instructor about what is a steering wheel.

 

[Brovane]

There's nothing muddled. Pregnancy categories are defined by law and the language mandated. Those of us in health care should be no more confused by this than a driving instructor about what is a steering wheel.

I don't think you are seeing this from the pregnant woman's point of view. You have a nurse that has gone through the trauma of two mis-carriages with probably no clear answers as to why she miscarried. She is now pregnant again and wants to try to do everything possible to carry this baby to term. She is told to get a flu vaccine that the manufacturer has put warning labels on the outside that call into question in her mind as to how well this was tested on pregnant woman. She isn't a pharmacist or a Doctor, she was a home health-care infusion nurse who probably isn't well versed in drugs and how they are tested as you assume. If it so well documented as to the affects on a pregnant woman then their should be no reason for the Drug manufacturer to put this CYA warning label on the vaccine drugs.

 

[Texashiker]

You don't like vaccines and science won't stand in your way. Your world is flat and I've wasted enough time. Anyone with basic science comprehension knows you haven't a leg to stand on so we'll stick a fork in this. It's done.

Show me a study of the flu vaccine and high risk pregnancies.

You can't, so you cry sour grapes.

 

[abj13]

Show me a study of the flu vaccine and high risk pregnancies.

You can't, so you cry sour grapes.

Here you go Riporin, a nice prospective study:

Oppermann M, Fritzsche J, Weber-Schoendorfer C, Keller-Stanislawski B, Allignol A, Meister R, Schaefer C.Vaccine. A(H1N1)v2009: a controlled observational prospective cohort study on vaccine safety in pregnancy.2012 Jun 22;30(30):4445-52.

 

[Texashiker]

Here you go Riporin, a nice prospective study:

Oppermann M, Fritzsche J, Weber-Schoendorfer C, Keller-Stanislawski B, Allignol A, Meister R, Schaefer C.Vaccine. A(H1N1)v2009: a controlled observational prospective cohort study on vaccine safety in pregnancy.2012 Jun 22;30(30):4445-52.

Where "exactly" does that study mention high risk pregnancies?

Specifically women who have a history of miscarriages.

 

[abj13]

If it so well documented as to the affects on a pregnant woman then their should be no reason for the Drug manufacturer to put this CYA warning label on the vaccine drugs.

Like I mentioned earlier, the insert does not guide clinical practice, its a misconception perpetrated by the legal sector. The inserted are to gain drug approval, but doesn't reflect the diverse and numerous data generated on a medication.

If the woman had such a problem with the vaccine based on the insert, she should have seeked an expert opinion, or at least filed the concern about the insert with her company. Then at least the company could show her the real data. But she didn't. She went out and refused the vaccine, which was not the best way to go about the situation.

That's half the issue with the article. Its worships the insert as if its some magical medical document. It isn't. Furthermore, they don't even ask an infectious disease expert who would have blown up the article because there are studies in pregnancy, and the US has an entire dedicated database to evaluating safety of vaccines, including with pregnancy.

 

[abj13]

Where "exactly" does that study mention high risk pregnancies?

Specifically women who have a history of miscarriages.

You didn't read the study. Come back when you actually have. But nice try Riporin.

 

[Texashiker]

You didn't read the study. Come back when you actually have. But nice try Riporin.

I am changing our parts on two of my AR-15s and do not have time right now to read the whole study.

So why don't you save me the trouble?

 

[abj13]

I am changing our parts on two of my AR-15s and do not have time right now to read the whole study.

So why don't you save me the time?

No, you fake attempt at intellectual honesty flies in the face of your refusal to actually read anything of substance posted in this thread or even this forum. But that was Riprorin's MO, trolling this website. Not a person around here would actually believe for a second you would even read anything of scientific merit.

Do some research before claiming "there's no studies." I've posted three studies almost 24 hours ago, and you haven't budged an inch to read them. Please stop posting and delete your ignorant posts until you've read them. Thanks.

 

[Texashiker]

Do some research before claiming "there's no studies." I've posted three studies almost 24 hours ago, and you haven't budged an inch to read them. Please stop posting and delete your ignorant posts until you've read them. Thanks.

Cite the study and the specific example you wish to present as evidence.

Not a person around here would actually believe for a second you would even read anything of scientific merit.

I love to read. Science daily is one of my favorite site on the whole net, that and Smithsonian magazine. My facebook page has links I posted to various history pages.

You have to tell me exactly what part of the study you wish to present as evidence to back up your statement.

It is not my job to present evidence on your behalf.

 

[abj13]

Cite the study and the specific example you wish to present as evidence.

I love to read. Science daily is one of my favorite site on the whole net, that and Smithsonian magazine. My facebook page has links I posted to various history pages.

You have to tell me exactly what part of the study you wish to present as evidence to back up your statement.

It is not my job to present evidence on your behalf.

Hahahaha. You complain there's no studies. Several studies are posted. Your wimpy response? "Post them, I'm too fake to actually read them." Yawn. Educate yourself before posting more. If you actually have read scientific studies, you'd know you have to read them in their entirety to understand the background, methods, results and conclusions. Some blurb isn't sufficient. Its why scientific studies cite studies, not quote statements like newspapers. Say... what were those three studies posted earlier?

Moro PL, Museru OI, Broder K, Cragan J, Zheteyeva Y, Tepper N, Revzina N, Lewis P, Arana J, Barash F, Kissin D, Vellozzi C.Safety of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Live Attenuated Monovalent Vaccine in Pregnant Women. Obstet Gynecol. 2013 Dec;122(6):1271-8.

Chambers CD, Johnson D, Xu R, Luo Y, Louik C, Mitchell AA, Schatz M, Jones KL; OTIS Collaborative Research Group.Risks and safety of pandemic h1n1 influenza vaccine in pregnancy: birth defects, spontaneous abortion, preterm delivery, and small for gestational age infants. Vaccine. 2013 Oct 17;31(44):5026-32.

Oppermann M, Fritzsche J, Weber-Schoendorfer C, Keller-Stanislawski B, Allignol A, Meister R, Schaefer C.Vaccine. A(H1N1)v2009: a controlled observational prospective cohort study on vaccine safety in pregnancy.2012 Jun 22;30(30):4445-52.

Keep trolling Riprorin

 

[Texashiker]

Keep trolling Riprorin

To be taken seriously you have to post links and quotes.

It is not my job to read the study, and then try to figure out what part you are referring to.

I am not here to present evidence eon your behalf. If you know of a study of the flu vaccine in high risk pregnancies, specifically a history of miscarriages, please post a link and quote.

 

[abj13]

To be taken seriously you have to post links and quotes.

It is not my job to read the study, and then try to figure out what part you are referring to.

I am not here to present evidence eon your behalf. If you know of a study of the flu vaccine in high risk pregnancies, specifically a history of miscarriages, please post a link and quote.

I love the dishonesty Riprorin. First you run around claiming how there's no published study evaluating the influenza vaccine on pregnancy. And you claim it over and over, and over. When shown there are multiple studies, you hide behind that there has to be links, or else they don't exists! What an absurdity. Boo hoo. Not only does the CDC provide excellent data, the VAERS system tracks adverse effects, there's an excellent ecosystem already in place to track adverse effects in pregnancy. What's those studies again with their pubmed citations too?

Moro PL, Museru OI, Broder K, Cragan J, Zheteyeva Y, Tepper N, Revzina N, Lewis P, Arana J, Barash F, Kissin D, Vellozzi C.Safety of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Live Attenuated Monovalent Vaccine in Pregnant Women. Obstet Gynecol. 2013 Dec;122(6):1271-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24201689

Chambers CD, Johnson D, Xu R, Luo Y, Louik C, Mitchell AA, Schatz M, Jones KL; OTIS Collaborative Research Group.Risks and safety of pandemic h1n1 influenza vaccine in pregnancy: birth defects, spontaneous abortion, preterm delivery, and small for gestational age infants. Vaccine. 2013 Oct 17;31(44):5026-32. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24016809

Oppermann M, Fritzsche J, Weber-Schoendorfer C, Keller-Stanislawski B, Allignol A, Meister R, Schaefer C.Vaccine. A(H1N1)v2009: a controlled observational prospective cohort study on vaccine safety in pregnancy.2012 Jun 22;30(30):4445-52. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22564554

Keep trolling Riprorin.

 

[Texashiker]

Keep trolling Riprorin.

The only person trollin here is you.

You post a comment and when challenged refuse to backup your statements.

Anyway, both my ARs are back together so I am gonna go play some TF2.

 

[abj13]

The only person trollin here is you.

You post a comment and when challenged refuse to backup your statements.

Anyway, both my ARs are back together so I am gonna go play some TF2.

LMAO. You post a comment claiming that no studies exist on the safety of the influenza vaccine in pregnancy. When CDC comments, VAERS data, and several studies are posted, you can do nothing but troll and deny they exist. As the CDC puts it:

"The flu shot has been given to millions of pregnant women over many years. Flu shots have not been shown to cause harm to pregnant women or their babies. It is very important for pregnant women to get the flu shot."

The influenza vaccine has been repeatedly shown not to have an association with a specific adverse effect in pregnancy. It is the reason why the CDC, AAP, ACOG, ACIP and multiple other physician organizations highly support and recommend influenza vaccination during pregnancy.

What does Riprorin have to say against all this data? Claims it doesn't exist. Once again, I ask you to delete your false comments and false claims that no studies exist when they clearly do.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

LMAO. You post a comment claiming that no studies exist on the safety of the influenza vaccine in pregnancy. When CDC comments, VAERS data, and several studies are posted, you can do nothing but troll and deny they exist. As the CDC puts it:

"The flu shot has been given to millions of pregnant women over many years. Flu shots have not been shown to cause harm to pregnant women or their babies. It is very important for pregnant women to get the flu shot."

The influenza vaccine has been repeatedly shown not to have an association with a specific adverse effect in pregnancy. It is the reason why the CDC, AAP, ACOG, ACIP and multiple other physician organizations highly support and recommend influenza vaccination during pregnancy.

What does Riprorin have to say against all this data? Claims it doesn't exist. Once again, I ask you to delete your false comments and false claims that no studies exist when they clearly do.

He doesn't do science.

 

[Texashiker]

LMAO. You post a comment claiming that no studies exist on the safety of the influenza vaccine in pregnancy. When CDC comments, VAERS data, and several studies are posted, you can do nothing but troll and deny they exist. As the CDC puts it:

High risk pregnancies with a history of miscarriages.

Which is what the lady in the opening post was.

The influenza vaccine has been repeatedly shown not to have an association with a specific adverse effect in pregnancy. It is the reason why the CDC, AAP, ACOG, ACIP and multiple other physician organizations highly support and recommend influenza vaccination during pregnancy.

The words you keep leaving out of your post are "high risk."

Is there a reason why you are ignoring the ladies history of miscarriages?

He doesn't do science.

That is simply not true.

 

[abj13]

High risk pregnancies with a history of miscarriages.
Which is what the lady in the opening post was.
The words you keep leaving out of your post are "high risk."
Is there a reason why you are ignoring the ladies history of miscarriages?
That is simply not true.

If you are going to post something please contribute something of substance.

Multiple groups including the ACIP, ACOG, CDC, AAP, etc have all stated the recommendation that influenza vaccination is recommended for pregnancy and is safe because of the lack of an association between adverse outcomes. Millions of pregnant mothers have received the vaccine, and systems like VAERS have not found an association of influenza vaccine with a specific poor outcome. VAERS and several studies have not found an association with poor outcomes and a particular maternal risk factor. Several studies including prospective cohort series have not found an association with poor outcomes and influenza vaccine.

Moro PL, Museru OI, Broder K, Cragan J, Zheteyeva Y, Tepper N, Revzina N, Lewis P, Arana J, Barash F, Kissin D, Vellozzi C.Safety of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Live Attenuated Monovalent Vaccine in Pregnant Women. Obstet Gynecol. 2013 Dec;122(6):1271-8. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24201689

Chambers CD, Johnson D, Xu R, Luo Y, Louik C, Mitchell AA, Schatz M, Jones KL; OTIS Collaborative Research Group.Risks and safety of pandemic h1n1 influenza vaccine in pregnancy: birth defects, spontaneous abortion, preterm delivery, and small for gestational age infants. Vaccine. 2013 Oct 17;31(44):5026-32. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24016809

Oppermann M, Fritzsche J, Weber-Schoendorfer C, Keller-Stanislawski B, Allignol A, Meister R, Schaefer C.Vaccine. A(H1N1)v2009: a controlled observational prospective cohort study on vaccine safety in pregnancy.2012 Jun 22;30(30):4445-52. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22564554

And what is the evidence that there is a risk with a vaccine is placing this woman at risk? The end result is obvious, there is a multitude of data supporting the use of the vaccine, and complete lack of sufficient data to suggest adverse reactions.

The conclusion is obvious. There's a reason why Riprorin is not a physician, his utterly ignorance of the evidence and the safety of the influenza vaccine in pregnancy rivals the stupidity of vaccine fear mongerers like Jenny McCarthy.

 

[Texashiker]

The conclusion is obvious. There's a reason why Riprorin is not a physician, his utterly ignorance of the evidence and the safety of the influenza vaccine in pregnancy rivals the stupidity of vaccine fear mongerers like Jenny McCarthy.

Do you have a study done on high risk pregnancies or not?

Chances are since you are avoiding the issue of this woman having a high risk pregnancy as you have no studies to back up your claim. You keep referring to pregnancies this and that, and not a single mention of high risk pregnancies.

There is no issue with me and vaccines. But you seem to think there is.

There is however an issue with a doctor forcing a high risk patient to take a vaccine that has not been studied in high risk pregnancies.

Why haven't you included the words "high risk" in any of your post? Seems to me you are ignoring that point.