Pregnant nurse fired for not taking flu vaccine

[Jimzz]

Yet another TexasHiker anti-vaccine thread. Spouting more ignorance.

In reality, the CDC *RECOMMENDS* that pregnant women get the seasonal flu vaccine. Pregnant women are more likely than non-pregnant women to have complications from the flu. Her baby is SAFER if she gets the vaccine than if she doesn't.
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/qa_vacpregnant.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/features/pregnancyandflu/
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/influenza/AN00651
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/266513.php
http://thestir.cafemom.com/pregnancy/161733/4_myths_about_pregnancy_the

Sounds like the OP is ignorant AND the nurse in PA is ignorant. A nurse who refuses to rely on a preponderance of evidence for best practices for herself and unborn baby - I wouldn't want her treating me.

:thumbsup:


Also this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhk7-5eBCrs

 

[ch33zw1z]

outrage not found. Go find a nursing job that doesn't involve traveling to people's houses and taking care of them, or get the dang flu shot. The previous two miscarriages weren't caused by the flu shot, so the belief that the flu shot will cause another miscarriage is unfounded, IMO.

fyi, i don't get flu shots either

 

[Texashiker]

No, you do not have a right to place hundreds or thousands of other people in a vulnerable population at risk. Your company is not required to allow you to place that population at risk because you are pregnant.

This goes back to reasonable accommodation. Could the employer give her a job not dealing with the public?

There was a comment about what good is a nurse if she can not see people.

Lets say her doctor put her on bed rest, should she be fired because she can not do her job?

We are not talking about a permanent situation here.

It is attitudes like the ones posted in this thread that make the United States a second world nation when it comes to womens rights. Pregnant? Need some kind of commendation? Too bad, you are fired.

 

[dmcowen674]

Very easily, by working in a hospital. We don't have a choice, we'll sure we do... if we want jobs we take the shot. If we want to wish we had jobs, we skip it. Flu shot protects not only the Mom but the baby, the nurse has an agenda.

What agenda?

All she had to do was say she was against the shot for religious reasons.

You have many that don't get the shot because of the religious exemption.

So what you said is not true. You have a choice if you are religious.

 

[glenn1]

This goes back to reasonable accommodation. Could the employer give her a job not dealing with the public?

There was a comment about what good is a nurse if she can not see people.

Lets say her doctor put her on bed rest, should she be fired because she can not do her job?

We are not talking about a permanent situation here.

It is attitudes like that make the United States a second world nation when it comes to womens rights.

Sure they could, but why should they be forced to? Personally I disagree with even the accomodation to wear a mask if you refuse vaccination, and wouldn't have a problem if any and all anti-vaccine nutjobs were removed from healthcare jobs nationwide because of the public health risks they raise. You should have your RN or MD license permanently revoked if you advocate others against vaccination.

 

[DrPizza]

++++*/+/

My debate is not about the vaccine so much as civil rights.

Should a company be allowed to force its employees to use an untested medicine or be fired?

Could the employer accommodate her for a few months rather than force her to take an untested vaccine?

This is one reason why the United States is falling behind on womens rights. We excuse the firing of a woman for doing what she thinks is best for her unborn child. How many months off from work do nations like Germany provide their new mothers? But we are firing our mothers?
You are jumping to conclusions that this is an anti-vaccine thread, and you are wrong.

I never said I was anti-vaccine.

Or, on the other hand, she was fired for making a medical decision based on what she thinks, rather than on a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

Your untested angle is pretty weak. The flu vaccine is made the same way year after year; it's the specific strains of the flu that it protects against which is varied in the formulation. Year after year, it's given without complications to pregnant women. There is no sound reason to suspect this year's formulation would be any different.

 

[Hugo Drax]

This goes back to reasonable accommodation. Could the employer give her a job not dealing with the public?

There was a comment about what good is a nurse if she can not see people.

Lets say her doctor put her on bed rest, should she be fired because she can not do her job?

We are not talking about a permanent situation here.

It is attitudes like the ones posted in this thread that make the United States a second world nation when it comes to womens rights. Pregnant? Need some kind of commendation? Too bad, you are fired.

That is why you see educated women having less children. It is punitive to do so for educated women/families. Now Welfare queens, half wits, the drug addicts and other dredges of society in addition to a lower mean IQ population will pop out babies left and right and get all kinds of special help and accommodations. Go down to a bad part of town and you will see what I mean.

This is what you call dysgenics. Look it up.

 

[Texashiker]

Sure they could, but why should they be forced to?

Why should a company accommodate? To uphold the civil rights of the individual.

Why should a cafe accommodate minorities?

Why should a hospital accommodate poor people who need emergency treatment?

Because we are all people.

Your untested angle is pretty weak.

Would you give your goats untested vaccines?

Chances are an untested goat vaccine would not even be allowed on the market.

 

[mikeymikec]

No, you do not have a right to place hundreds or thousands of other people in a vulnerable population at risk. Your company is not required to allow you to place that population at risk because you are pregnant.

But surely... umm, errr... FREEEEEEDOM!

I think

Wouldn't it be great to explain a flu epidemic and vulnerable people dying (or suffering significant complications) because a nurse used their fictional right to endanger patients. I bet the families of the victims would very much like that freedom being upheld.

 

[DrPizza]

Lets say her doctor put her on bed rest, should she be fired because she can not do her job?

We are not talking about a permanent situation here.
<snip>

It is attitudes like the ones posted in this thread that make the United States a second world nation when it comes to womens rights. Pregnant? Need some kind of commendation? Too bad, you are fired.

See, I'm not sure if you realize it, but this is what happens - you immediately start to lose in these arguments, then you start replying without much thought.

She *can* do her job. She simply has to get a flu shot, which is recommended by every agency that's ever researched the effects of the flu vaccine on a fetus, and/or the effects of a mother getting the flu on a fetus. She has chosen not to follow a requirement of her job.

And, this isn't about becoming more like 2nd or 3rd world countries - this is about becoming more like a first world country. Perhaps one of the reasons our country isn't #1 in the world (far from it) in health care outcomes because idiots in our country want to support incompetent health care workers. In no uncertain terms, this woman is incompetent if she cannot look at the preponderance of evidence that recommends that she gets the flu shot - regardless of being a nurse, though her position will probably lead to a higher risk of exposure to the flu - and make a correct medical decision.

 

[glenn1]

Why should a company accommodate? To uphold the civil rights of the individual.

Why should a cafe accommodate minorities?

Why should a hospital accommodate poor people who need emergency treatment?

Because we are all people.

Sure we're all people, but some people are just ignorant assholes who endanger others for no reason because of their retarded views on the safety of vaccines.

 

[Texashiker]

Perhaps one of the reasons our country isn't #1 in the world (far from it) in health care outcomes because idiots in our country want to support incompetent health care workers. In no uncertain terms, this woman is incompetent if she cannot look at the preponderance of evidence that recommends that she gets the flu shot - regardless of being a nurse, though her position will probably lead to a higher risk of exposure to the flu - and make a correct medical decision.

Couple of things here,

I disagree with her not taking the flu shot. She took the advice of a mid-wife over that of a doctor.

However, I also disagree with her firing. If there is anyway the company could have accommodated her they should have. Rather than accommodate her, she was fired.

I also disagree with her being forced to take an untested vaccine. If the vaccine is that important, then get the offical FDA stamp of approval.



The question still stands, would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

 

[glenn1]

Couple of things here,

I disagree with her not taking the flu shot. She took the advice of a mid-wife over that of a doctor.

However, I also disagree with her firing. If there is anyway the company could have accommodated her they should have. Rather than accommodate her, she was fired.

I also disagree with her being forced to take an untested vaccine.

The question still stands, would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

What is it with you and "testing"? Between GMO food labelling and now vaccine testing, you seem to have excessive perceptions of risks for common scientific products and impossible standards for demonstrating their safety up to your "standards".

 

[DrPizza]

Why should a company accommodate? To uphold the civil rights of the individual.

Why should a cafe accommodate minorities?

Why should a hospital accommodate poor people who need emergency treatment?

Because we are all people.


Would you give your goats untested vaccines?

Chances are an untested goat vaccine would not even be allowed on the market.

Grasping at straws now? You're talking about completely different types of accommodations. Further, it's "reasonable accommodations." In what world is it reasonable for an employer to give an employee a completely new job when in reality it's the employee who is refusing a reasonable job expectation? There's *NOTHING* unreasonable about telling a health care employee to get a flu shot.

And again, your "untested" angle is very weak. It's only supported in that this batch of vaccine protects against different strains of flu than the previous batch. Other than that, it's manufactured and is alike in every other way to previous batches. In other words, it HAS been tested that the way they make the flu vaccine leads to a vaccine that is safe for humans.

 

[Texashiker]

And again, your "untested" angle is very weak. It's only supported in that this batch of vaccine protects against different strains of flu than the previous batch. Other than that, it's manufactured and is alike in every other way to previous batches.

You are not answering a simple question.

Would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

Since you are delaying a reply I suspect you are having difficulty finding an answer.

 

[mikeymikec]

Couple of things here,

I disagree with her not taking the flu shot. She took the advice of a mid-wife over that of a doctor.

<snip>

The question still stands, would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

To begin with, I very much doubt that any major drug company would risk selling an untested vaccine, not unless it fancied playing the corporate equivalent of Russian Roulette, albeit with 5 bullets loaded out of 6. Such a mistake and its inevitable consequences would drastically undermine public confidence in modern medicine. Even if a company distributed something they knew to be and didn't mark as a placebo, the consequences for them would be pretty horrific.

Secondly, your logic makes no sense. I definitely would not (in any normal first world circumstances) consent to being given a known-to-be-untested vaccine, would you?

 

[DrPizza]

Couple of things here,

I disagree with her not taking the flu shot. She took the advice of a mid-wife over that of a doctor.

However, I also disagree with her firing. If there is anyway the company could have accommodated her they should have. Rather than accommodate her, she was fired.

So, you think employers should make accommodations for people who refuse to carry out the requirements of their jobs for no valid reason?

 

[Doppel]

Despite this hospital's policy it appears some of you are under the impression that all hospitals have this policy. They don't. I'm aware of one close to me that allows nurses to not get a flu shot but they need to take extra precautions if they don't (face masks, I think, or something like that).

 

[DrPizza]

You are not answering a simple question.

Would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

Since you are delaying a reply I suspect you are having difficulty finding an answer.

I'm having difficulty in formulating an answer to a stupid question. How about this: let's suppose that some evil entity develops a lethal strain of the flu that spreads among the general population rather quickly. Our CDC is right on the ball and quickly develops a vaccine for this version of the flu. It's not rocket science to do so - such a vaccine is going to be inherently safe, because it's made according to standards that lead to a safe and effective vaccine.

"Untested" encompasses too broad of a range of meanings. From one end - the end you think it means, to the other end, which is more akin to "well, we've made this recipe for spaghetti sauce from roma tomatoes for the past 10 years and it's turned out great. Now we're going to make this spaghetti sauce from a new batch of Roma tomatoes that are *incredibly slightly* different from the variety of Roma tomatoes that we used last year."

 

[glenn1]

The question still stands, would you give an untested vaccine to your goats?

If goats are practicing medicine and treating patients in the hospital, then yes. Perhaps that's the case in Texas or whatever BFE place you live, but not around where I am.

 

[Moonbeam]

Texashiker, you have a mental condition. It is based on the fact that your brain is unable to accurately assess risk. That is in part based on ignorance and lack of training, knowledge of facts and how to differentiate between facts based on evidence and truthiness based on feeling. The medical profession is based on science, the best of the knowledge that humanity has collected. Science is not perfect but it is evidence based. Scientists are not perfect but they are trained and tested to practice objectivity. In medical matters. When the medical community can act to fire a nurse who won't take a vaccine because she is pregnant it means that a scientific judgment has been made that the risk to her and her unborn child is not significant whether the vaccine is tested or not based on a medical assessment of the risk to her, her child, and the patients she will attend. Because scientific rational thinking is the only way we can proximally eliminate bias from our reasoning, eliminate the motivation to say favor the life on our own fetus over the lives of other people, we have to use that only methodology to make rational decisions. Could they be wrong, yes, but that is not the best scientific guess.

The kind of brain defect that you suffer from is very common. Steve Jobs is likely dead because he didn't want to take the advise of medical experts and sought alternate medical treatments.

Think of this as if you were a child taken to the doctor to get your shots. You can see only the needle. The doctor sees your death by any number of diseases his knowledge can save you from. All that he knows for you is darkness so you can't know his intention or why he will cause you to feel a prick in your arm. If you can't see the light you can learn to trust that its there. Most rational people do so because experience has indicated even to most of the blind that it works. Don't try to superimpose your darkness over the light. Ask instead why you can't trust. What has made you suspicious and afraid?

Because you can't accurately assess the reasons for the hospital's decision you have mistakenly turned the issue into related fears of companies denying women the right to protect their children. That is an invention that can occur only in the dark. The scientifically trained will see it as irrational and crazy. And in order to protect ourselves from the insane, we sometimes have to resort to force. It's this certainty the sane have that sanity should rule that kicks the insane into high gear. Relax. In a sane world sane people are safe, as safe as anybody can be. Your insanity is very common and treatable in many cases.

A few years ago I had to lay out all these issues for my niece and her new baby because he had gotten on the internet and read about vaccines. She was terrified but in the end she trusted. It's terrible to advocate for something based on trust alone but science was always my thing. I brought her girl home from school the other day and we walked out holding hands. I love being alive.

 

[Texashiker]

I'm having difficulty in formulating an answer to a stupid question. <snip> Now we're going to make this spaghetti sauce from a new batch of Roma tomatoes that are *incredibly slightly* different from the variety of Roma tomatoes that we used last year."

Since you are refusing to answer the untested vaccine on your goats, I am going to guess the answer is no.

You will not give your goats an untested vaccine, but you would see a woman give one?

Does your employer accommodate women, or are they fired and sent on their way?

The medical profession is based on science, the best of the knowledge that humanity has collected.

Then there should be no problem with testing and approval.

 

[mikeymikec]

Texashiker, you like to ignore points and questions that might challenge/undermine your viewpoint. I wonder why you bother coming here.

 

[Texashiker]

I wonder why you bother coming here.

I like the exchange of ideas and opinions.

And to piss off you women haters that rejoice when a woman is fired for standing up for herself.

 

[glenn1]

I like the exchange of ideas and opinions.

And to piss off you women haters that rejoice when a woman is fired for standing up for herself.

Fine, let the nurse get an abortion then take a flu shot - problem solved. How's that for standing up for herself?