PREDICTION: Microsoft will lose hard on this generation.

[colonelciller]

Right, but he was talking about it like it as a one line option in the code. It could be something that may take weeks to take and and especially retest the code without the DRM option in place. I'm not much of a coder, but from what I have done, what seems like a simple change from the outside can be pretty hairy to implement. Particularly if you don't implement with the intent to be able to disable it.

i am constantly amazed by the lengths some people will go to in order to defend a corporation. makes me think of a five letter word beginning with 's'.

 

[colonelciller]

well i personally think that having brand loyalty is retarded in general, unless you've had a REALLY bad experience with it in the past, and just steer clear of it in the future. but to hold a grudge because of policies that were announced, not even put into practice because the product isn't out yet, even though those policies were changed due to consumer backlash, then yeah that is just petty as shit to me.

they keep the crappy drm policies - people dont' like them and don't want an x1.

they change the crappy drm policies to meet the wants of 99.99% of the backlash/feedback they hard - people don't like them and don't want an x1.

it is lose/lose for them in some people's minds, and that is what i call a hater. no matter what they do it won't be good enough.

you're conflating grudge with mistrust in order to try and win an argument... that's a straw man.

mistrust is a very rational and sound reaction to Microsoft. We all know what they aspire to now... they made that very clear with their DRM ridden, orwellian-nightmare-enabling-and-MPAA's-wet-dream---> "kinect" (spy device... the NSA thanks you for participating).

just because M$ft leadership backtracked in order to save their careers does not mean that microsoft is a company to be trusted.

 

[Tweak155]

i am constantly amazed by the lengths some people will go to in order to defend a corporation. makes me think of a five letter word beginning with 's'.

'Smart'?

 

[Sulaco]

If announcing DRM was a PR disaster for them, reversing course on DRM again after release would be the PR equivalent of a 2 mile wide asteroid made of TNT crashing into New York

I have two words for you:

Installed base

Once you have your system in enough homes, with enough support, and MOST importantly, enough software invested, you've got them by the nuts. Sure, it will still hurt your image to some degree, and people will froth and wail online, but they've got an install base, and if they do it sneakily enough, can add in more and more "policies" slowly but surely as the years go on.

This is my biggest fear.

It's not unlike the RRoD scenario. People (myself included) had too much invested in software and other accessories to just throw up their hands and go to Sony.

It'll depend on what and how (again if they did) they decide to "reimplement" this stuff, but given the right timing, I don't think it would be the nail in the coffin to the majority audience that you and I think it is (and should be).

 

[Ancalagon44]

I have two words for you:

Installed base

Once you have your system in enough homes, with enough support, and MOST importantly, enough software invested, you've got them by the nuts. Sure, it will still hurt your image to some degree, and people will froth and wail online, but they've got an install base, and if they do it sneakily enough, can add in more and more "policies" slowly but surely as the years go on.

This is my biggest fear.

It's not unlike the RRoD scenario. People (myself included) had too much invested in software and other accessories to just throw up their hands and go to Sony.

It'll depend on what and how (again if they did) they decide to "reimplement" this stuff, but given the right timing, I don't think it would be the nail in the coffin to the majority audience that you and I think it is (and should be).

I still dont think there is much danger of it. A bigger danger is that, even without official policy from MS, games could still have online only DRM.

They know big the backlash was this time - I think in the states it is not that unusual for gamers to own multiple consoles in any particular generation. So, if MS were to do that, what would happen is that software sales for their console would basically stall and they would have a dead duck - big install base but nobody is buying software anymore. Anyone who owns more than one console would just stop buying software for the XBO.

Yes, those who have an XBO might put up with it if it doesnt affect them too much.

 

[exdeath]

There would be massive lawsuits given that your games you have thousands invested in would become worthless and have no resell value thus not allowing you a choice to leave to a competitor due to bait and switch practices without giving up thousands of dollars of purchases.

It wouldn't end well at all.

 

[purbeast0]

If someone cheats you, then apologizes and changes their ways he is still a cheater in the back of your mind. That's how I look at it.

But they didn't cheat you, the system isn't even out yet...

 

[dpodblood]

The funny thing is that at the Xbox ONE reveal prior to E3 it was painfully obvious that the decision as to how often, or whether or not the system would even need to authenticate wasn't even made. That's why we received such a mixed message from all of their PR guys.

I find it hilarious that he asks Joe "are you on the development team? How do you know it's simple" when the 24 hour check is very obviously just a software setting who's value can be changed, or turned on or off at any time.

That said I am a little disappointed that the "family plan" is now being removed from the system. I understand why they would need to eliminate it for disk based games, but it would have been nice to keep for digital titles. Still though I'd rather maintain the status quo than try to deal with MS's convoluted DRM scheme.

 

[gorcorps]

If they really want to save their investment in the XboxOne they should just stop charging for Live. It would offset the cost difference of PS4 and stop charging people for basically nothing, which is what you get for any of these online "services". Oh but they give you free games! No, they give you games you already bought months ago or didn't buy because you really didn't want it.

Time to wake up people, in a country where money rules the only way to vote against corporate BS is NOT TO GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY.

No and no. Xbox live has worked much better for me than PSN ever has. Would that be the case if MS didn't get money for Live? I'm not sure, but it sure seems like the money made a difference.

And don't generalize about the free games. I just got Uncharted 3 for free which is definitely one I wanted but simply didn't have the time for when it was new. That's been the case with several games. Don't assume we're all in the same boat as you because that's not even close to true.

 

[Zargon]

No and no. Xbox live has worked much better for me than PSN ever has. Would that be the case if MS didn't get money for Live? I'm not sure, but it sure seems like the money made a difference.

And don't generalize about the free games. I just got Uncharted 3 for free which is definitely one I wanted but simply didn't have the time for when it was new. That's been the case with several games. Don't assume we're all in the same boat as you because that's not even close to true.

LOL PSN

anyone who keeps a CC on file there is just asking for it

 

[Golgatha]

LOL PSN

anyone who keeps a CC on file there is just asking for it

I'd say that goes for both systems. Everyone got hacked on PSN and XBox had the widespread FIFA 12 hack to deal with as well.

http://xbox.about.com/od/news/a/Xbox-Live-Fifa-12-Hack-Explained.htm

Microsoft still denies it was a systems hack. However, I use a unique and strong password for each game console, and I never played FIFA 12. If it wasn't a computer hack, then it was still a social engineering hack where the "hacker" was able to get Microsoft to hand over my personal information, or reset my password without my knowledge or permission.

In either case, I was without PSN or XBox Live for about a month when each happened to me.

 

[dpodblood]

MS isn't going to stop charging for XBL, but if they bundled a year subscription in with the console it would certainly offset the price difference between the ONE and the PS4. It would probably get a lot more people onto XBL. Personally I don't do a lot of online gaming so I have never bought an XBL sub. If they got me into the ecosystem with the first year for free, it's pretty likely I would renew.

 

[QuikWgn]

I'd say that goes for both systems. Everyone got hacked on PSN and XBox had the widespread FIFA 12 hack to deal with as well.

http://xbox.about.com/od/news/a/Xbox-Live-Fifa-12-Hack-Explained.htm


Microsoft still denies it was a systems hack. However, I use a unique and strong password for each game console, and I never played FIFA 12. If it wasn't a computer hack, then it was still a social engineering hack where the "hacker" was able to get Microsoft to hand over my personal information, or reset my password without my knowledge or permission.

In either case, I was without PSN or XBox Live for about a month when each happened to me.

My personal opinion is if there wouldn't have been immediate backlash against MS for the DRM issue Sony would have announced they were doing it to. Sony patented tech to ban/drm all used games just a scant few months ago.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games-6401992

"A game playing system includes a use permission tag provided for use in a game disk for a user of a game, a disk drive, and a reproduction device for reproducing the game," reads a line from the patent's abstract. "The disk drive reads out a disk ID from the game disk. When the game is to be played, the reproduction device conveys the disk ID and a player ID to the use permission tag. The use permission tag stores the terms of use of the game and determines whether a combination of the disk ID and the player ID conveyed from the reproduction device fulfills the terms of use or not."

In the patent filing, Sony said in a content business like the games industry, it is "vital" to redistribute a portion of the proceeds from sales to developers, who do not see a dime from secondhand sales. Sony said though the secondhand market may expose new gamers to a particular title, in the long run, this does not benefit developers.

"In such a scheme where the electronic content is bought and sold in the second-hand markets or the like, the sales proceeds resulting therefrom are not redistributed to the developers," reads a line from the filing. "Also, since the users who have purchased the second-hand items are somehow no longer potential buyers of the content, the developers would lose their profits otherwise gained in the first place."

So I'm not giving Sony a pass on this.

As far as 'how easy it is to remove DRM' as many have said this isn't a 'one line of code' type solution. Microsoft has more than 5 months to re-code the software and modify the launch version of XBL for X-Bone to correct/remove the DRM. If they can't accomplish it before the console goes 'gold' it'll be a day one patch when the console makes its initial connection online to do the setup.

 

[SaurusX]

I never paid for XBL and never felt like I missed out. You can only run around an arena and shoot other people so many different ways.

 

[Midwayman]

Actually it wouldn't be that difficult. If you have code that does DRM checks, just always have it validate. So if you have some really complicated functions or code, just always have it return true. All of the structure remains the same, it just skips over doing anything.

It's not a one line option, but it's not exactly difficult to implement.

Its more complex than that. They have to verify the disc and the disc itself has to be more careful encoding to prevent offline duplication. Something you don't worry much about when you're authenticating online. Then you have test it all to make sure it is secure. I had a buddy who did the testing on electronic slots, and when you're talking lots of money on the line even incredibly simple things in security are never easy. In the grand scheme of things its not a huge deal, yes. Just anything related to security I would never qualify as 'easy'.

 

[purbeast0]

As far as 'how easy it is to remove DRM' as many have said this isn't a 'one line of code' type solution. Microsoft has more than 5 months to re-code the software and modify the launch version of XBL for X-Bone to correct/remove the DRM. If they can't accomplish it before the console goes 'gold' it'll be a day one patch when the console makes its initial connection online to do the setup.

this is what people don't understand. most people posting on the internet act as if the x1 has been out since e3, and that ms has totally screwed us over. then they changed their policy, and all of a sudden it works like the majority of people want.

the console isn't even out and we have no clue about any of these policies being fully implemented, or how complex/easy they are to implement.

even being a programmer myself for my career, all of the armchair xbox1 programmers make me laugh talking about how easy things are as if they know how the whole system has been engineered. major nelson's reponse to angry joe was 100% spot on.

 

[Midwayman]

The funny thing is that at the Xbox ONE reveal prior to E3 it was painfully obvious that the decision as to how often, or whether or not the system would even need to authenticate wasn't even made. That's why we received such a mixed message from all of their PR guys.
....
That said I am a little disappointed that the "family plan" is now being removed from the system. I understand why they would need to eliminate it for disk based games, but it would have been nice to keep for digital titles. Still though I'd rather maintain the status quo than try to deal with MS's convoluted DRM scheme.

I read some other articles where the speculated that MS was originally planning a 2014 launch. When Sony announced it caught them with their pants down. That's why it took so long to respond, and the mixed messages we have. I'm inclined to believe it. Its hard to believe that MS would come out looking as unprepared as it has.


The Family plan going away sucks. I was hoping they'd ship a code with the disc and you could choose to install and do the 24hr check like they originally wanted and get all those benefits. Only change is you could also release that key from your account and it would require the disc in the drive if it couldn't get online. (Also all games on the console would disappear from the family share in 24hrs if not connected to the net).

 

[Tweak155]

I read some other articles where the speculated that MS was originally planning a 2014 launch. When Sony announced it caught them with their pants down. That's why it took so long to respond, and the mixed messages we have. I'm inclined to believe it. Its hard to believe that MS would come out looking as unprepared as it has.


The Family plan going away sucks. I was hoping they'd ship a code with the disc and you could choose to install and do the 24hr check like they originally wanted and get all those benefits. Only change is you could also release that key from your account and it would require the disc in the drive if it couldn't get online. (Also all games on the console would disappear from the family share in 24hrs if not connected to the net).

All we really had was speculation on how the family plan was going to work. They never released a point by point breakdown on how it would verify anything. So all we're "missing" is what we thought what the family plan likely would have done for us.

 

[cmdrdredd]

But they didn't cheat you, the system isn't even out yet...

They did though. They cheated everyone who supported the brand for 12 years

 

[cmdrdredd]

LOL PSN

anyone who keeps a CC on file there is just asking for it

Nobody can provide an link to any proof that any user received any financial damage from the psn outage. Troll elsewhere

 

[purbeast0]

They did though. They cheated everyone who supported the brand for 12 years

/facepalm.

okay we'll agree to disagree, as usual lol

 

[cmdrdredd]

My personal opinion is if there wouldn't have been immediate backlash against MS for the DRM issue Sony would have announced they were doing it to. Sony patented tech to ban/drm all used games just a scant few months ago.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games-6401992



So I'm not giving Sony a pass on this.

As far as 'how easy it is to remove DRM' as many have said this isn't a 'one line of code' type solution. Microsoft has more than 5 months to re-code the software and modify the launch version of XBL for X-Bone to correct/remove the DRM. If they can't accomplish it before the console goes 'gold' it'll be a day one patch when the console makes its initial connection online to do the setup.

Apple patents stuff all the time and never uses it. A patent doesn't mean there is a product in the line.

 

[cmdrdredd]

this is what people don't understand. most people posting on the internet act as if the x1 has been out since e3, and that ms has totally screwed us over. then they changed their policy, and all of a sudden it works like the majority of people want.

the console isn't even out and we have no clue about any of these policies being fully implemented, or how complex/easy they are to implement.

even being a programmer myself for my career, all of the armchair xbox1 programmers make me laugh talking about how easy things are as if they know how the whole system has been engineered. major nelson's reponse to angry joe was 100% spot on.

Most people knew it could be changed and would not be so hard. Notice only 4 days went by and then it was "OK we will take it out" if it was really that hard they wouldn't have announced it that quick...

 

[purbeast0]

Most people knew it could be changed and would not be so hard. Notice only 4 days went by and then it was "OK we will take it out" if it was really that hard they wouldn't have announced it that quick...

they have 5 months to make the change. whether the change takes 5 months or 5 minutes we will have no clue.

none of this stuff was even implemented yet for all we know.

 

[exdeath]

I remember BluRay DRM for movies was supposed to work like Xbone and Dvix always online and locking discs onto the player, until Sony was forced to take it out or lose to HD DVD...

I don't trust either of them, but I'm glad Sony learned and now MS.