Zenmervolt
Elite member
To me it sounds like the Porsche GT2 and the Porsche 911 Turbo both ran on regular Porsche road tires, while the GT-R ran on the stock tires that Nissan equipped it with.
GT2 != GT-R
ZV
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Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at Nurburgring
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To me it sounds like the Porsche GT2 and the Porsche 911 Turbo both ran on regular Porsche road tires, while the GT-R ran on the stock tires that Nissan equipped it with.
GT2 != GT-R
ZV
AMCRambler
Diamond Member
Yeah you're right, haha. Owned. I need some coffee...
Zenmervolt
Elite member
So do I actually, my reply was a bit harsh. It's early for this, but: :beer:
ZV
dug777
Lifer
I'd say invading Poland was shooting from the hip.
The sheer magnitude of difference seems daft, and doesn't line up with any other reviews I've seen.
Porsche carefully don't tell you what tyres they used for the GTR, and 20kgs is what % of the cars total weight? That seems irrelevant...
Arkaign
Lifer
That's a good point. I'm an excellent driver, and do AutoX / open track days / Ennis dragstrip runs whenever I can, but I would be willing to bet that it would be damned hard for me to pull a sub-7:50 time in *ANY* car. It would take me a lot of practice and coaching to hit those kinds of times. Although I'm an enthusiast, I'm not a professional.
Pro >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Amateur, 7 days a week.
AMCRambler
Diamond Member
Yeah, but the same guy was able to take a Porsche around and hit 7:34. Then again, if that was the first time the Porsche engineer had driven that car than I would say there's no way he'd be able to hit the same time that the Nissan test driver did. A Porsche and a GTR are to entirely different cars.
Arkaign
Lifer
^^ Two important things to remember :
(1)- A Porsche engineer is going to be immeasurably more familiar and confident driving a Porsche around the 'Ring. Your point of them being totally different cars reinforces my point. His technique with the two probably didn't reflect the strengths/weaknesses of the GT-R properly.
(2)- Why would Porsche WANT to get a good lap time with the GT-R? There is zero point to that. The only way Porsche wins by even messing around with this is to try to discredit the GT-R. Given that the GT-R has put in epic performances in nearly every review/comparo, it's exceedingly unlikely that this nearly 8-minute time is legit whatsoever.
I would be saying the EXACT same thing if any company was posting bogus times of competing vehicles. If Nissan sent an 'engineer' around with a GT2 and got crappy times, that would be FUD FTL. Ditto if BMW sent someone around in a CTS-V and got crap times. It's just Bull Fucking Shit, that's what it is.
Look for confirmation as more GT-Rs get into private hands, and watch the 'Ring times that are done with private drivers and professionals without company affiliation. That is where the truth comes out.
(1)- A Porsche engineer is going to be immeasurably more familiar and confident driving a Porsche around the 'Ring. Your point of them being totally different cars reinforces my point. His technique with the two probably didn't reflect the strengths/weaknesses of the GT-R properly.
(2)- Why would Porsche WANT to get a good lap time with the GT-R? There is zero point to that. The only way Porsche wins by even messing around with this is to try to discredit the GT-R. Given that the GT-R has put in epic performances in nearly every review/comparo, it's exceedingly unlikely that this nearly 8-minute time is legit whatsoever.
I would be saying the EXACT same thing if any company was posting bogus times of competing vehicles. If Nissan sent an 'engineer' around with a GT2 and got crappy times, that would be FUD FTL. Ditto if BMW sent someone around in a CTS-V and got crap times. It's just Bull Fucking Shit, that's what it is.
Look for confirmation as more GT-Rs get into private hands, and watch the 'Ring times that are done with private drivers and professionals without company affiliation. That is where the truth comes out.
And fixed again for you. The same guy who put down the 7:30's for the Porsches. Obviously the guy can drive, but why let the facts get in the way.
For an incredibly complex course like the ring, being an expert on the course should be far more advantage for putting down great times than being highly familiar with the car like the GT-R which is supposed to practically drive itself (not literally).
Arkaign
Lifer
We'll see. I think Porsche is setting themselves up for epic fail here. All it takes is some privately-owned GT-Rs to get tossed around the 'Ring for sub-7:30 times for Porsche to have serious egg on the face.
Also, having many years experience driving high-powered Rear-Engine/AWD or Rear-Engine/RWD Porsches does NOT mean that they will be nearly as competent in a front-engine AWD vehicle with completely different dynamics altogether.
Because buying the car, and shipping it to Germany to use as a baseline for testing your own vehicles would be a complete waste of time and money if you put down intentionally slow times with the GTR. This wasn't done for publicity, it's a common practice among performance makers to test their own cars vs the competition. The article, which appears no one actually read, also states that Porsche was doing similar testing for the Panamera. If Porsche had gotten within 5 or 10 seconds of the lap time the GT-R sent with theirs, we probably wouldn't have heard any public accusations. When the difference is a massive 25 seconds, of course Porsche is going to say somthing about.
Difference being that Nissan has a history of BS'ing about their vehicles, while Porsche does not have such a track record or one of taking unfounded shots at the competition.
Arkaign
Lifer
And they're cheating again here? : http://www.autoblog.com/2008/0...-times-stun-observers/
Time will tell pretty quick on this, all it will take is private GT-R and GT-R Spec V laps to prove the issue one way or the other.
This is as bad as that bogus showdown between the broken Z06 and the Porsche done by that European outfit. No wheelspin on a Z06, missed shifts, crunching synchros, sluggish acceleration at WOT, what a pile of shit. I'd rather have the Porsche any day of the week over the Z06, but I can smell BS when it's so blatantly obvious.
Hint : if you're the ONLY one getting shit times with a car, it's because you're DOING IT WRONG, or the car is fucking broken.
Time will tell pretty quick on this, all it will take is private GT-R and GT-R Spec V laps to prove the issue one way or the other.
This is as bad as that bogus showdown between the broken Z06 and the Porsche done by that European outfit. No wheelspin on a Z06, missed shifts, crunching synchros, sluggish acceleration at WOT, what a pile of shit. I'd rather have the Porsche any day of the week over the Z06, but I can smell BS when it's so blatantly obvious.
Hint : if you're the ONLY one getting shit times with a car, it's because you're DOING IT WRONG, or the car is fucking broken.
I'm just goofing off. 🙂 It doesn't have much of anything to do with production vehicles (except the vehicles they were based on), but Porsche basically took pot shots at BMW and Mazda because their car couldn't keep up. Eventually, they got the BMW thrown out of one series, and extra weight added to the competition in the other.
Arkaign
Lifer
A note on my personal stance on this : I am deeply skeptical that Nissan would severely risk their image by cheating to get good lap times. I am equally skeptical that Porsche, GM, etc, would do so either. I do think that the more resources you have to throw at it, the better the chance you can bring home a spectacular time (ie; having a better driver, or trying 500 laps instead of 50 will have much greater odds of shaving seconds).
If the 'Ring times were the only thing to go by, then I would be more apt to believe Porsche on this. As is though, stock GT-Rs (with stock tires natch), have been flogged by nearly every automotive group on earth by this point, almost invariably putting down epic track times against excellent competitors such as the Z06, GT2, etc, etc. We already know for a given that the GT-R is underrated in terms of HP, so why is it surprising that it would perform so well?
Now, I'm not saying that it's simply impossible for Nissan to have cheated to get the sub-7:30 GT-R times, but that looking at the body of evidence, it's very very unlikely. I also know that we will soon have proof, as these things make it back to the 'Ring in private hands, and in independent comparisons where they take them back to the 'Ring with pro drivers.
I wouldn't trust GM, Nissan, or ANYone to give honest track numbers for a competitor's offering. That's just stupidity of the highest level.
If the 'Ring times were the only thing to go by, then I would be more apt to believe Porsche on this. As is though, stock GT-Rs (with stock tires natch), have been flogged by nearly every automotive group on earth by this point, almost invariably putting down epic track times against excellent competitors such as the Z06, GT2, etc, etc. We already know for a given that the GT-R is underrated in terms of HP, so why is it surprising that it would perform so well?
Now, I'm not saying that it's simply impossible for Nissan to have cheated to get the sub-7:30 GT-R times, but that looking at the body of evidence, it's very very unlikely. I also know that we will soon have proof, as these things make it back to the 'Ring in private hands, and in independent comparisons where they take them back to the 'Ring with pro drivers.
I wouldn't trust GM, Nissan, or ANYone to give honest track numbers for a competitor's offering. That's just stupidity of the highest level.
Nissan is being sued for falsely fast odometer readings after Honda/Acura was already found guilty of it. They claimed their last generation GT-R broke 8 minutes at the ring, when no one could get anywhere close to that with a stock vehicle. It's pretty common knowledge how they, and other Japanese companies, have been fudging HP ratings for years on their cars which is one reason SAE was brought about, though Nissan has also understated the HP of some of their vehicle by a substantial amount, the current GT-R appearing to be the most recent offender.
Arkaign
Lifer
(1)- Odometer readings are meaningless when in context of ring times.
(2)- See : http://www.edmunds.com/insidel...tures/articleId=124427
"All these years later, the Skyline GT-R's performance at the Nordschleife is still controversial, cloaked in conjecture, rumor and gossip. Whether the GT-R R33 V-spec was running big boost, sticky tires or a tweaked chassis (or all three) is something we're unlikely to ever know, but it did turn a record lap of 7:59 in 1996 and make a hero out of Dirk Schoysman, the Belgian driver who played a pivotal role in the R33's development. "
Controversial, but cheating?
It's in the range of the 7:58 set with the R34, which makes sense as they are incredibly similar.
http://www.dscr.net/ubb/cgi-bi...et_topic;f=34;t=005038
(3)- HP ratings don't factor much in this example, as it's a pretty widely accepted conclusion that the GT-R is very underrated in actual crank HP.
As I said, if I'm proven wrong on this, I'll man up and admit it clean. But as it is, all the data points to the GT-R being a damned fast car, far faster than what Porsche is claiming here. But we will soon know for sure. I'd be shocked if this went untested for long.
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