Porsche accuses Nissan of cheating at Nurburgring

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dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
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I'm amazed how emotional the Porsche fans are getting in this thread.

They're just cars, guys, and if you don't think Porsche is effectively saying 'Nissan lied' with this story, you need your heads examined.

What emotion brands conjur up in our fevered breasts ;)
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Originally posted by: dug777
I'm amazed how emotional the Porsche fans are getting in this thread.

They're just cars, guys, and if you don't think Porsche is effectively saying 'Nissan lied' with this story, you need your heads examined.

What emotion brands conjur up in our fevered breasts ;)

I see it on both sides. The fanatics that say that german cars will never be beated. The other fanatics want to believe a jap brand beat the ones that have always been on top. *shrugs* I really don't give a hoot. I can't drive anything like that anywhere in the US, i'll just continue buying my fords, maby a nice Shelby 500 Mustang would be fun.
 

SSSnail

Lifer
Nov 29, 2006
17,458
82
86
In other words, the Nissan fanbois read the title, stampede in here and smash keyboards in response. I'm a fan of the GT-R, and it is a technological marvel, but if it's slower than the Porsches around The Ring, so fucking what?
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Originally posted by: SSSnail
In other words, the Nissan fanbois read the title, stampede in here and smash keyboards in response. I'm a fan of the GT-R, and it is a technological marvel, but if it's slower than the Porsches around The Ring, so fucking what?

Nothing, except it isn't slower.
Porsche engineers should take your advice. They are the ones who got their panties in a bunch because Nissan's GT-R can go around the ring faster than their 911 Turbo and GT2 which cost almost 2x as much.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
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Being the price/performance leader becomes a considerably easier task when your vehicles are intentionally being sold at a loss while producing suspiciously inconsistent performance results. Regardless of the engineers, Porsche management is most likely happier being the most profitable major auto manufacturer on the planet as opposed to the price performance leader.
 
Jul 10, 2007
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Top Gear
5th Gear
R&T
C&D
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so you're saying all those independent, respected publications tested the 911T and GTR back to back and determined that the GT-R is faster, and now Porsche, who obviously doesn't want a lowly nissan to steal their thunder, tracks a 911 faster by 20 seconds around the ring.

something doesn't add up. if anything, they should be neck and neck, if not the nissan faster by a tad.
a porsche driver has no incentive to go around faster in a nissan. and they definitely don't have any reason to call nissan out like this. that's very classy of them :roll:
 

lurk3r

Senior member
Oct 26, 2007
981
0
0
Originally posted by: Pariah
Being the price/performance leader becomes a considerably easier task when your vehicles are intentionally being sold at a loss while producing suspiciously inconsistent performance results. Regardless of the engineers, Porsche management is most likely happier being the most profitable major auto manufacturer on the planet as opposed to the price performance leader.

Wow, even more FUD posted just to inflame, wonder how many people the troll catches this time
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
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Originally posted by: SSSnail
In other words, the Nissan fanbois read the title, stampede in here and smash keyboards in response. I'm a fan of the GT-R, and it is a technological marvel, but if it's slower than the Porsches around The Ring, so fucking what?

I'm not smashing keyboards, and I'm a fan of both the Porsches and the GT-R. It just so happens that the evidence to support Porsche's claims of Nissan cheating just don't add up.

The best I can tell is that Porsche probably ran the Bridgestone Runflats on their GT-R (a tire choice, if you don't want the superior Dunlops). That, combined with using an engineer instead of an actual professional racing driver, along with lower/less effort, leads to a slow lap time.

Notice that Porsche doesn't tell what tires THEY used, they just say they came on the car. Then they go on to say that 7:29 could ONLY be attained by using a semi-slick racing tire (RComps).

You'd see me here just as angry if Nissan had bought a 911 GT2, and without telling anyone which tires they got on it, threw the keys to a Nissan engineer, and sent it out on the ring for a 7:59 or so. What the hell would that prove? It's FUD, whichever way it's spewed, and I'll damn sure have something to say about it.
 

Pariah

Elite Member
Apr 16, 2000
7,357
20
81
Originally posted by: lurk3r
Originally posted by: Pariah
Being the price/performance leader becomes a considerably easier task when your vehicles are intentionally being sold at a loss while producing suspiciously inconsistent performance results. Regardless of the engineers, Porsche management is most likely happier being the most profitable major auto manufacturer on the planet as opposed to the price performance leader.

Wow, even more FUD posted just to inflame, wonder how many people the troll catches this time

Excellent well thought out reply. And which part exactly was fud? Or is that just your default answer when you know you have nothing to dispute the facts?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
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Originally posted by: crazySOB297
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
hey pariah, please reply to my post above. thanks.

Who gave the reviewers the cars?

Irrelevant, as it's generally the same for all cases, the manufacturer gives the cars out for review.

The only way that the reviews would be in question :

Non-stock Tires
Non-stock Power Output

Look at the C&D hot lap competition, and it's clear that the GT-R is not abnormally powerful beyond the widely understood power underrating. The peak speeds of the GT-R were almost always lower than the Vette for example, but the corner exit speeds were higher due to the balance and AWD system being able to apply power sooner. It's also an advantage to brake later, which the GT-R also enjoys the advantage of. C&D also CLEARLY stated the tires used, which are on the car from the dealership (unless you opt for inferior runflats, and the Z06 is a great example of how limiting those can be).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again : if something is clearly sour grapes, incompetence, or FUD, I'll call it out.

On that Z06 vs. GT2 race, I defended the Chevy muscle on that one, since the video/comparo was shens to the level of just being preposterous. Nothing against Porsche, the GT2 is the faster car, and the one I'd rather own hands down, but a working Z06 in a decent driver's hands is going to be a *very* close race with a GT2, not a blowout. I defended Porsche with their new Panamera concept as well. So I have no company loyalty per se. It seems that every maker has their ups and downs.
 

lurk3r

Senior member
Oct 26, 2007
981
0
0
Originally posted by: Pariah
Originally posted by: lurk3r
Originally posted by: Pariah
Being the price/performance leader becomes a considerably easier task when your vehicles are intentionally being sold at a loss while producing suspiciously inconsistent performance results. Regardless of the engineers, Porsche management is most likely happier being the most profitable major auto manufacturer on the planet as opposed to the price performance leader.

Wow, even more FUD posted just to inflame, wonder how many people the troll catches this time

Excellent well thought out reply. And which part exactly was fud? Or is that just your default answer when you know you have nothing to dispute the facts?

Pretty much the whole thing, but go ahead and actually show a source that proves your statement or its FUD, just like every single post you've made here
 
Jul 10, 2007
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Originally posted by: crazySOB297
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
hey pariah, please reply to my post above. thanks.

Who gave the reviewers the cars?

some were nissan, some were customer owned. go click on the links.

one of them was bought by a UK guy, flown from japan, had less than 400km on it- that's barely broken in.
it then proceeded to lay the smack down on the porsche on a damp track on its first attempt, and the driver wasn't pushing it hard.
the porsche had multiple attempts on a dry track before the driver gave up because that was as fast as he could get it to go.

point is, the gt-r consistently beats out the 911 in all of these reviews, and then porsche comes up with a time that is 15 seconds slower than their own 911. not suspicious at all :roll:
 

Shlong

Diamond Member
Mar 14, 2002
3,130
59
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Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Top Gear
5th Gear
R&T
C&D
Autocar
EVO
Sport Auto

so you're saying all those independent, respected publications tested the 911T and GTR back to back and determined that the GT-R is faster, and now Porsche, who obviously doesn't want a lowly nissan to steal their thunder, tracks a 911 faster by 20 seconds around the ring.

something doesn't add up. if anything, they should be neck and neck, if not the nissan faster by a tad.
a porsche driver has no incentive to go around faster in a nissan. and they definitely don't have any reason to call nissan out like this. that's very classy of them :roll:

Yeah forget what Nissan or Porsche has to say, all the reviews I've read say GT-R >
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
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I would completely ignore what Porsche and Nissan have to say about this issue since their opinions are obviously biased. Listed to independent reviewers only.
 
Jul 10, 2007
12,041
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Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Top Gear
5th Gear
R&T
C&D
Autocar
EVO
Sport Auto

so you're saying all those independent, respected publications tested the 911T and GTR back to back and determined that the GT-R is faster, and now Porsche, who obviously doesn't want a lowly nissan to steal their thunder, tracks a 911 faster by 20 seconds around the ring.

something doesn't add up. if anything, they should be neck and neck, if not the nissan faster by a tad.
a porsche driver has no incentive to go around faster in a nissan. and they definitely don't have any reason to call nissan out like this. that's very classy of them :roll:

Pariah? Zenmervolt? Any Porsche fan?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
Top Gear
5th Gear
R&T
C&D
Autocar
EVO
Sport Auto

so you're saying all those independent, respected publications tested the 911T and GTR back to back and determined that the GT-R is faster, and now Porsche, who obviously doesn't want a lowly nissan to steal their thunder, tracks a 911 faster by 20 seconds around the ring.

something doesn't add up. if anything, they should be neck and neck, if not the nissan faster by a tad.
a porsche driver has no incentive to go around faster in a nissan. and they definitely don't have any reason to call nissan out like this. that's very classy of them :roll:

Pariah? Zenmervolt? Any Porsche fan?

I'm a Porsche fan, hell I work down the street from RUF AutoCentre USA, and drool over the cars every chance I get. I'd still like to scoop up a 928s4 or something similarly unique some day.

That said, I don't think anyone can back up claims that Nissan cheated to get that time. GT-R + Dunlops (stock tire) + Formula Driver + lots of attempts = 7:29, apparently. The car has performed like mad in pretty much every comparo out there, so I'm not sure who Porsche thinks they're fooling on this deal.
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
2
81
I definitely think Nissan cheated... they used different tyres and different pressures! ZOMG!!!11! CHEATS!!11!
 

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
5,761
12
81
http://www.edmunds.com/insidel.../News/articleId=133406

TOKYO ? Nissan has officially refuted suggestions that cheating might have been involved during its testing of the 2009 Nissan GT-R at the Nürburgring Nordschleife this year. The carefully worded document from Tokyo responds to rumors that Porsche was unable to duplicate the GT-R's 7:29 effort in its own testing of a car this summer.

The Nissan release notes that the GT-R set what was then a new lap record for production sports cars of 7:29 on April 17, 2008, during customary performance and durability testing. The car met production specifications in every way, had been equipped with production-specification Dunlop SP Sport 600 DSST CTT tires and had been driven by professional racing driver Toshio Suzuki. The car carried 110 pounds of data and video recording equipment. An official announcement was made in June.

Nissan notes that the test was observed by Best Motoring, a leading Japanese car magazine, and was conducted according to the Nürburgring test protocol for lap times established by Sport Auto, a leading German magazine. Nissan further says that it still has the tires used for the test.

The company says it's aware that other automakers have purchased examples of the GT-R for evaluation. It notes, "Like all GT-R customers, we recommend than any automaker buying a GT-R follow the recommended run-in procedures, service schedules and maintenance to ensure the maximum performance from the car. In addition, we offer performance driving courses for prospective and current GT-R owners to help them get the best performance from their car. We would welcome the opportunity to help any manufacturer with understanding the full capabilities of the GT-R."

Apparently this whole saga began last May, when a member of Porsche's Nürburgring development team was overheard at a social establishment near the track rather loudly expressing his skepticism of the GT-R's ability to surpass the Porsche 911 Turbo's speed at the Nordschleife. Just a few weeks ago under similar circumstances in Verona, Italy, for the introduction of the Porsche 911 Targa, the same person repeated his thoughts in the company of members of the Australian press.

Our sources have since learned that Porsche purchased a GT-R in America soon after the car's official introduction and quickly air-freighted it to Germany ($40,000 is usually the tab for such an exercise). Some time later, members of the Porsche crew at the Nürburgring brought the car to the Nissan development shop near the track and explained that they seemed to be having a little trouble with it. Kazutosi Mizuno, chief vehicle engineer and chief product specialist for the GT-R, happened to be there and ? since all the Nürburgring development teams for various manufacturers are really one big family of friendly rivals ? happily agreed to help them.

Porsche's GT-R had something over 3,000 miles on the odometer. Its tires were in tatters. The brakes were terminally toasted. None of the fluids had been changed. Mizuno inquired whether the transmission had been recalibrated following the recommended 1,200-mile break-in procedure as specified in the owner's manual. It had not. Mizuno provided new tires and new brakes, changed the fluids and recalibrated the transmission. And then he carefully explained the driving techniques that are required to help the GT-R do its best (as a former race engineer in charge of Nissan's effort at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, he knows his stuff) and sent them on their way.

It seems Porsche was no more successful afterward, and now the testing season at the Nordschleife has concluded as winter weather approaches. Our Nissan sources tell us that the whole episode is highly humorous, especially as Porsche declines to describe its own testing protocol for Nordschleife laps. When spring arrives, we'll see if there are any mysterious German students in Nissan's performance driving schools for GT-R owners.

Inside Line says: Here's more proof that high-performance cars can make even engineers from the world's most sophisticated car companies act like scruffy teenagers in high-school auto shop. ? Kelly Toepke, News Editor
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
91
2nd video

Nissan provides second video of the GTR's time.

I still think its surprising that Porsche would claim the GTR is over 15 seconds slower than a 911 Turbo (not even the GT2) when in pretty much every test in every magazine/show/etc has shown it to be significantly faster than the standard 911 Turbo.

Whether the GTR can truly break the 7:30 barriar in anything but perfect circumstances might be debatable, but claiming it's 25 seconds slower and not doing any more in depth investigation is a bit shoddy. Was the GTR running the Dunlop tires? Was it calibrated to spec? Was the driver nearly as familiar with the GTR as with the Porsches he likely has driven hundreds of times?
 

Kromis

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2006
5,214
1
81
Originally posted by: dawheat
2nd video

Nissan provides second video of the GTR's time.

I still think its surprising that Porsche would claim the GTR is over 15 seconds slower than a 911 Turbo (not even the GT2) when in pretty much every test in every magazine/show/etc has shown it to be significantly faster than the standard 911 Turbo.

Whether the GTR can truly break the 7:30 barriar in anything but perfect circumstances might be debatable, but claiming it's 25 seconds slower and not doing any more in depth investigation is a bit shoddy. Was the GTR running the Dunlop tires? Was it calibrated to spec? Was the driver nearly as familiar with the GTR as with the Porsches he likely has driven hundreds of times?

I just watched the video.

I am very impressed with Nissan but I shake my head at Porsche.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
1,377
126
To be fair, this is mainly the fault of that 'engineer' at Porsche. Probably some hot-head. Still bad form of the company to let this debacle play out so publicly. Super egg-on-face for Porsche. :(