Actually, one of my best friends is gay. I accept the fact that he's gay, and he also appreciates the fact that I don't want to see him all up on another guy. He keeps that private. Things I say in this thread aren't necessarily my personal opinions. I enjoy playing the devil's advocate, and pointing things out on both sides.
Actually, one of my best friends is gay. I accept the fact that he's gay, and he also appreciates the fact that I don't want to see him all up on another guy. He keeps that private. Things I say in this thread aren't necessarily my personal opinions. I enjoy playing the devil's advocate, and pointing things out on both sides.
The problem is that gay people are denied the benefits awarded to straight people who marry. Saying to a gay guy "well if you want the benefits just marry some lesbian and live your separate lives" or "just pretend you like girls and fool one into thinking your're straight" aren't acceptable solutions to gay people getting the same rights as straight people.
I pretty much find that the people who stand so much against this are still under the impression that gay people make a choice to live the gay lifestyle, and that there should be no problem for them to "give it all up" and become straight and "normal" like the rest of us. For Chrissakes, the medical community itself has said for years that one's sexual orientation is unchangeable (regardless of the nature vs. nurture argument).
So it is no more "normal" for a gay person to "go straight" than it is for a straight person to "go gay". Ask any gay person.
Keeping that perspective in mind, it might help you come to terms with why to a gay person, saying "sorry I don't consider your being gay to be something that can fit within the confines of our society... you'll just have to change" is totally ludicrous and unacceptable.
It would be one thing if all of the people against gay marriage (and legitimacy of the homosexual orientation in general) took that position through informed opinions, scientific research, etc. But the sad fact of the matter is that the vast majority of it comes from pure ignorance... very much like fifty years ago you might see a majority disapproving of interracial marriage--fear of the unknown is a very powerful force in humanity. But shed a little light and you see the tide turning, just as you do in this case.
l2c
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: dtyn
Originally posted by: conjur
Then your statement is equally absurd.
Accept what the majority wants, drop your pants, bend over, and grab your ankles.
So, democracy allows for people to try to change the minds of the majority? Instead of accepting it, they can deal with it while it's in place, and work to change it. Interesting...
Your statement above If you want to live in a democratic society, accept the things that the majority want. is the opposite of what you just wrote.
Which is it?
That's for you to decide. I'm just pointing out both sides. IMHO, it's my second statement. Deal with it, and work to change it. I like playing both sides, it's interesting to see what people have to say (Those who don't blow up, and flame).
Why is not making homosexual marriages illegal pandering to a severe minority?
Making it illegal is, imo, pandering to the whims of the ultra-conservatives who are following their Bible-thumping education.
Conjur,
Like I said. If a majority of the people don't want it, then we give the people what they want.
I've got no problem with gay marriages. What I do have a problem with is a minority dictating law.
Like I said. If a majority of the people don't want it, then we give the people what they want.
I've got no problem with gay marriages. What I do have a problem with is a minority dictating law.
FeathersMcGraw
Diamond Member
- Oct 17, 2001
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And I'm saying that the attitude that "gays should keep their lifestyles where no one but them can see it" is socially inequitable, whether you subscribe to that viewpoint or not.
Well, then work to change the viewpoints of society. But the fact that my stomach gets fidgety when I see him tongue another guy does not make me a bigot, or unaccepting. I don't really like to see guys all up on other girls in public either.
So then your first post of this thread would be of the exact opposite viewpoint if accepting gay marriage was a majority opinion? What, do your views just swing whichever way the wind blows?
l2c
FeathersMcGraw
Diamond Member
- Oct 17, 2001
- 4,041
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Then I just have to state I completely disagree with that. Dictating law based on morality (and religious beliefs) has no place in our government, regardless of majority opinion.
Majority opinion used to hold slavery as acceptable.
Majority opinion used to hold the Earth was flat.
Ignorance of an issue is no excuse.
Their tonguing does not cause your stomach to get "fidgety"... YOUR brain does. The problem is inside of you, whether you care to admit it or not. Personally, I don't like seeing PDAs either, but I've learned to overcome the feeling of repulsion, because, quite frankly, it is completely irrational. You DO have the power to change the ways you react to situations. We are not Pavlov's dogs.
l2c
This could easily turn into an arguement on which the correct answer would depend on which psychological branch you agree with. So, let's end it here and now.
This has nothing to do with race or "rights." I'm sick of hearing that this is like discrimination against blacks in the 50's, women, etc.
And gay people DO make a choice to live a "gay lifestyle" (hence the use of "gay" as an adjective). There are average lifestyles, then there are alternative lifestyles. Having multiple wives is an alternative (Utah). Swingers live an alternative lifestyle. Monks and nuns live alternative lifestyles. Priests are supposed to. Saying they're all equal and normal is simply not true. They are not the same.
Nobody is saying that people can't partner up and live with whomever they please. To say that it deserves the same legal classification as a man and woman joined together to promote childbearing and a growing and stable society is insane.
we never have been a truly democratic society, there have been many instances of laws being passed without majority of the population's support, so this would not degrade any aspect of our legal system. welcome to the pro-gay-marriage club
you're assuming that everybody agrees marriage is to promote childbearing, etc. correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think any laws state that marriage must be to promote childbearing and to grow society.
That rationale makes zero sense. Last time I checked, caucasian, disabled, middle-aged, tall are all adjectives as well... does that mean they are "lifestyle choices" as well?
If you hate the racial example, perhaps you could deal with another comparison that has some common threads. Disabilties. Say someone (either through birth defect or some environmental cause) develops a disability that makes him unable to use conventional restroom facilities in national parks. Do we just say "too bad, being disabled is your lifestyle choice. You live an alternative lifestyle and are therefore not equal to those of use living average lifestyles. You will just be unable to enjoy our national parks because we are not willing to accomodate your needs."
You will likely balk at that example too, saying that disabled people could not make a choice to pretend that they are non-disabled people (or that being able to use the bathroom is "more of a right" than getting married--neither is mentioned in the Bill of Rights actually). But to a gay person, pretending they are straight is just as crazy a notion as a handicapped one pretending to be not handicapped.
l2c
So let's see what life is like in Conjur's world:
1. Don't believe in God
2. Make up your own moral structure (god) as you see fit. Worship it.
3. Don't pay attention to anyone else's moral structure (gods). Curse them.
4. Mandatory workdays on Sundays. No more religious holidays. Employers can now work people 7 days, 56 hours a week.
5. You can sleep with your father and mother (or both at the same time). Sisters and brothers too. And don't forget the cat and dog.
6. There is no such thing as Murder. If your god (moral structure) want's to kill someone, you should obey.
7. Sleep with whoever you want, whenever you want. Avoid monogamy. Screw, screw, screw!!
8. Take what you want. You deserve it. Don't pay for anything.
9. Truth is overrated. Lie whenever it suits you.
10. Lust is good. Worry about what you don't have and rely on rule 8 to get it.
Boy, what a model for society!
"Boy, what a load of drivel" is more like it. Unless you're willing to explain how you came to those ten conclusions I suggest you find another thread to nef in.
l2c
You used the phrase "gay lifestyle." I don't know if you actually know any gay people, but most (all the ones I've known) really do have certain elements of their lives that are different than "straight" people.
I gave you several examples of "alternative" lifestyles. None of them included physical handicaps.
1) Correct
2) No...I was raised Catholic but realize now all of the man-made rules in organized religion are a bunch of bunk.
3) Pulling things from your arse, eh? Putting words into my mouth, eh?
4) Where the hell did that come from? Nice way to jump to a completely illogical assumption based on nothing.
5) Find where I said incest is ok? Can't find it, eh? STFU.
6) Homosexual marriages affect NO ONE and harm NO ONE as it's between consenting adults. Murder...hmm...yes...HARMS someone! STFU.
7) Hey...if I'm not married...have at it!
8) Hmm...disrespecting other peoples' property? Where have I said stealing is ok? Again, your ability pull sh!t out of your arse is 2nd to none.
9) The truth shall set you free. Too bad your blinders keep you from seeing the real truth.
10) Nothing wrong with lust. Just don't go overboard and harm someone or destroy property or break existing laws meant to control order
Read my thread on Bush approving only of heterosexual marriages. You'll see where I stand. And it's a far cry from your holier-than-thou, I-know-what's-right-by-God mentality.
BTW, I think I see where your problem lies. And, btw, your link in your profile is broken.
You were the one who said we should not base any law on religious belief. My list just took you at your word. Let's all live by the
"ANTI-10 Commandments" and see where society ends up.
There are plenty of laws based on religious belief. Which ones are ok to keep and which ones do you want to get rid of?
Sorry...but..uh...I'd hazard a guess that the laws of this country (and many others) are NOT based on religion. You think the Japanese follow Moses' Commandments? Yet you'll find Murder is illegal there, too.
Grow a brain.
Besides, I think George Carlin said it best:
"Thou shalt always be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.
&
Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless of course they pray to a different invisible man than you.
Two is all you need; Moses could have carried them down the hill in his fuckin' pocket. I wouldn't mind those folks in Alabama posting them on the courthouse wall, as long as they provided one additional commandment:
Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."
I don't see where you make the logical leap that not basing laws on religion implies that laws must directly oppose religion.
It's pretty clear that you're not even worth debating.
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