Poll: Was Trump's tweet to 4 Congresswomen of color to go back to your corrupt country, racist?

[HomerJS]

Add me to the "nope" list.

While I think what he said was very stupid and xenophobic, and looks racist, I don't think it was. I think it was just typical Trump "dog whistle" politics designed to stirr up his opposition and his base at the same time.

But, as I said, it was a VERY stupid thing to say...especially to 3 native-born Americans and one naturalized citizen.

Question, is there anything Trump has said since taking office you consider racist?

 

[pmv]

I think BoomerD has a point. It distracts from the deliberate cruelty towards migrants. It distracts from obstruction of investigation into previous obstruction. It distracts from the tax cutting looting of the Treasury by the financial elite. It distracts from the deliberate corrosion of the institutions of Democracy. It distracts from potentially ruinous foreign policy. It distracts from the utter corruption of his Admin.

Boris Johnson I think coined the term 'dead cat strategy' and employs it constantly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy

• A 2013 proposal to cap bankers' bonuses was compared to a dead cat by Boris Johnson:[3]

There is one thing that is absolutely certain about throwing a dead cat on the dining room table – and I don’t mean that people will be outraged, alarmed, disgusted. That is true, but irrelevant. The key point is that everyone will shout, ‘Jeez, mate, there’s a dead cat on the table!’ In other words, they will be talking about the dead cat – the thing you want them to talk about – and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.[4]

But with Trump it works differently, becuase his 'dead cats' are not just random craziness, rather he distracts from each bit of scandalous behaviour of his own by throwing out something equally appalling. Nobody can keep up. And he probably does that partly out of calculation, as with Johnson, but partly because it just comes naturally to him to say and do offensive and stupid things.

I think maybe he just carries around a backpack of hate and anger, which he constantly dips into and throws out in a carefully-rationed way. His psychology is fascinating and it's hard not to keep getting distracted by it rather than looking at the psychopathology of the Republican party.

 

[brycejones]

@pcgeek11 can you enlighten us as to why Trump’s comments were not racist?

 

[Starbuck1975]

So again, any ideas on a non-racist reason why he would think those women were not US citizens?

It’s more complicated than a binary answer.

Most cultures struggle with the concept of otherness. Germans refer to Turkish migrant workers as auslanders. The Greek government recently shifted right, driven by an unemployed youth vote also concerned about national identity and culture in the face of massive waves of refugees.

While America may romanticize the notion of the melting pot, there is a partisan split over what this means.

This is especially pronounced in NYC, where immigrants have always faced pressure to adopt an Anglo-Saxon ideal of what it means to be American. This extends to even the adoption of Americanized names. “The model immigrant”. Fit in, don’t complain, be grateful that we even let you in. My grandparents certainly experienced this. This is also why you will hear immigrant Uber drivers try to make small talk using American slang. There is an expectation that immigrants adapt.

There is also a negative connotation towards those immigrants perceived as not adapting.

Trump’s attitude is not atypical of someone who grew up in Queens. Trump’s father would have been one of the guys making similar comments against my grandparents.

Is it racist? I think its more culture wars and game theory. “The Squad” is the face of the progressive wing of the Democrats. They also happen to be women of color. Trump wants centrist Democrats to stand with “The Squad”, and he wants Democrats to waste news cycles talking about race.

Trump is also playing to polls that show a majority of Americans agree with the sentiment that immigrants should adapt to an essential core American identity and culture.

It’s a cultural wars distraction that liberals will perceive as racist, conservatives will dismiss as not and enough swing voters will side with Trump on in key battleground states.

If it’s racist, Twitter should ban him.

Politically, he wants the House to censor him on this while seeming incapable of moving forward on impeachment.

 

[fskimospy]

It’s more complicated than a binary answer.

Most cultures struggle with the concept of otherness. Germans refer to Turkish migrant workers as auslanders. The Greek government recently shifted right, driven by an unemployed youth vote also concerned about national identity and culture in the face of massive waves of refugees.

While America may romanticize the notion of the melting pot, there is a partisan split over what this means.

This is especially pronounced in NYC, where immigrants have always faced pressure to adopt an Anglo-Saxon ideal of what it means to be American. This extends to even the adoption of Americanized names. “The model immigrant”. Fit in, don’t complain, be grateful that we even let you in. My grandparents certainly experienced this. This is also why you will hear immigrant Uber drivers try to make small talk using American slang. There is an expectation that immigrants adapt.

There is also a negative connotation towards those immigrants perceived as not adapting.

Trump’s attitude is not atypical of someone who grew up in Queens. Trump’s father would have been one of the guys making similar comments against my grandparents.

Is it racist? I think its more culture wars and game theory. “The Squad” is the face of the progressive wing of the Democrats. They also happen to be women of color. Trump wants centrist Democrats to stand with “The Squad”, and he wants Democrats to waste news cycles talking about race.

First, he’s not strategic like that. Second, he tried that in the midterms and got obliterated. It’s a losing strategy.

Third, 3 of the 4 people he is referring to ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS. AOC’s parents and maybe further back aren’t immigrants either. (Didn’t check the others) She’s literally at a minimum as American as Trump is.

So again, what’s a non-racist reason Trump would think she wasn’t from America? There isn’t one.

Trump is also playing to polls that show a majority of Americans agree with the sentiment that immigrants should adapt to an essential core American identity and culture.

It’s a cultural wars distraction that liberals will perceive as racist, conservatives will dismiss as not and enough swing voters will side with Trump on in key battleground states.

If it’s racist, Twitter should ban him.

Politically, he wants the House to censor him on this while seeming incapable of moving forward on impeachment.

Two thirds of the country thinks his statements were racist, this is not a close thing, he’s losing it by 30 points. Saying this was a large liability to him, not a benefit.

Again, refer back to statements from his own officials: he’s not playing chess, he’s eating the pieces. We are not talking about someone who acts strategically or thinks before he does something. He’s doing the same thing he always does, trying to keep his base happy. That’s all he knows how to do.

 

[fskimospy]

Hell, almost half of REPUBLICANS think what Trump said is racist.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/trump-tweet-response-2019

He might think that this is good ground for him but that’s because he’s only able to think of his base, which is not large enough to win elections with.

 

[HomerJS]

Is it racist? I think its more culture wars and game theory. “The Squad” is the face of the progressive wing of the Democrats. They also happen to be women of color. Trump wants centrist Democrats to stand with “The Squad”, and he wants Democrats to waste news cycles talking about race.

Trump is also playing to polls that show a majority of Americans agree with the sentiment that immigrants should adapt to an essential core American identity and culture.

It’s a cultural wars distraction that liberals will perceive as racist, conservatives will dismiss as not and enough swing voters will side with Trump on in key battleground states.

Adapting to American culture is not what Trump was advocating. It's the spin put on after the fact Trump tweeted racist attacks against members of Congress.

What exactly is American identity and culture? Trump himself sure has not represented American values. There is a fear whites are losing the ability to define what they consider identity and culture and that is what Trump is playing into.

 

[fskimospy]

To conservatives American culture means conservative white person culture. If you don’t like what America is and want to change it to be more like what conservative white people like then that’s great. If you don’t like what America is and want to change it to something that conservative white people like less then you hate America and should leave.

To be clear conservatives have no problem with people saying they don’t like America, they have problems with people not doing what they want.

 

[soundforbjt]

I thought Lindsey Graham's take on all this to Fox talking heads was the truly remarkable part of the whole thing.

I know this is how they strut for Trump, but come on.

Pure theater for an audience of one, or has Lindsey taken to douching with the Trump Koolaid, not just drinking it?
Those women are communists who hate America and Israel!

That's not just Lindsey's take on it, that's Fox's stand on it as well and they're expanding it to include all Democrats. They're claiming that "The Squad" is the face of the Democratic Party and that Democrats hate America.

 

[HomerJS]

That's not just Lindsey's take on it, that's Fox's stand on it as well and they're expanding it to include all Democrats. They're claiming that "The Squad" is the face of the Democratic Party and that Democrats hate America.

Yet in a moment of irony the guy who chooses Putin over his own country doesn't hate America??

 

[soundforbjt]

Yet in a moment of irony the guy who chooses Putin over his own country doesn't hate America??

You've seen the t-shirt "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat"? Russia is a white country after all.

 

[HomerJS]

Charrison, care to weigh in on why Trump's tweet was not racist?

Has Trump IYO said anything racist since taking office? If so, what?

 

[Starbuck1975]

First, he’s not strategic like that. Second, he tried that in the midterms and got obliterated. It’s a losing strategy.

He got obliterated by Democrats reclaiming the center. Moderate candidates swung the House. The strategy works if he creates a perception that the Democrats are unified in a swing to the left.

Third, 3 of the 4 people he is referring to ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS. AOC’s parents and maybe further back aren’t immigrants either. (Didn’t check the others) She’s literally at a minimum as American as Trump is.

Hence my comment about “otherness”. Two of my grandparents were born here yet faced similar sentiments in the blue collar streets of NYC back in the 50s and 60s. The sentiment of assimilation applies.

So again, what’s a non-racist reason Trump would think she wasn’t from America? There isn’t one.

As I said, cultural and melting pot expectations around assimilation

Two thirds of the country thinks his statements were racist, this is not a close thing, he’s losing it by 30 points. Saying this was a large liability to him, not a benefit.

And two thirds of the country believe inmigrants should assimilate. He is playing a dangerous numbers and cultural identity game.

Again, refer back to statements from his own officials: he’s not playing chess, he’s eating the pieces. We are not talking about someone who acts strategically or thinks before he does something. He’s doing the same thing he always does, trying to keep his base happy. That’s all he knows how to do.

Chaos is a strategy and its central to his political rise and survival.

 

[pmv]

Yet in a moment of irony the guy who chooses Putin over his own country doesn't hate America??

Ditto with Boris Johnson choosing Trump over supporting his own country's ambassador. Conservatives tend to hate their own country, as far as I can tell.

 

[pmv]

It’s more complicated than a binary answer.


Is it racist? I think its more culture wars and game theory. “The Squad” is the face of the progressive wing of the Democrats. They also happen to be women of color. Trump wants centrist Democrats to stand with “The Squad”, and he wants Democrats to waste news cycles talking about race.

But even if one accepts that take (which I don't really, at least not fully) it still means he is putting political advantage ahead of any concern for the wellbeing and rights of women of color. That clearly shows he doesn't see them as fully human and worthy of basic respect. They are a just a means to an end, in this take. Which still makes him a racist.

 

[K1052]

He got obliterated by Democrats reclaiming the center. Moderate candidates swung the House. The strategy works if he creates a perception that the Democrats are unified in a swing to the left.

A lot of voters swallowed their distaste for him because they didn't like Clinton. In 2018 they no longer were under that burden and the GOP suffered huge defections in the suburbs and among the educated R voters. There is no obvious 2020 Dem challenger yet but he's making a convincing case that he's still really terrible to those same voters who turned their backs on him last year.

He's taking a narrow re-election path and turning it into a razor edge with this confidence that he can simply recreate the 2016 election.

 

[Jhhnn]

It’s more complicated than a binary answer.

Most cultures struggle with the concept of otherness. Germans refer to Turkish migrant workers as auslanders. The Greek government recently shifted right, driven by an unemployed youth vote also concerned about national identity and culture in the face of massive waves of refugees.

While America may romanticize the notion of the melting pot, there is a partisan split over what this means.

This is especially pronounced in NYC, where immigrants have always faced pressure to adopt an Anglo-Saxon ideal of what it means to be American. This extends to even the adoption of Americanized names. “The model immigrant”. Fit in, don’t complain, be grateful that we even let you in. My grandparents certainly experienced this. This is also why you will hear immigrant Uber drivers try to make small talk using American slang. There is an expectation that immigrants adapt.

There is also a negative connotation towards those immigrants perceived as not adapting.

Trump’s attitude is not atypical of someone who grew up in Queens. Trump’s father would have been one of the guys making similar comments against my grandparents.

Is it racist? I think its more culture wars and game theory. “The Squad” is the face of the progressive wing of the Democrats. They also happen to be women of color. Trump wants centrist Democrats to stand with “The Squad”, and he wants Democrats to waste news cycles talking about race.

Trump is also playing to polls that show a majority of Americans agree with the sentiment that immigrants should adapt to an essential core American identity and culture.

It’s a cultural wars distraction that liberals will perceive as racist, conservatives will dismiss as not and enough swing voters will side with Trump on in key battleground states.

If it’s racist, Twitter should ban him.

Politically, he wants the House to censor him on this while seeming incapable of moving forward on impeachment.

You're obfuscating madly, huh? Pressley is an African American whose familial roots in this country are deeper than Trump's. Puerto Ricans, like AOC, aren't immigrants in the traditional sense at all. Tlaib & Omar have done all the things they could to adapt to core American identity & culture, whatever that is, in becoming educated. That's entirely the opposite of the proud to be ignorant values of all too many white culture warriors. If there's any failure to adapt, it's by the latter group.

It's a nice touch trying to shift the onus of Trump's remarks onto Twitter. As Prez, he can no sooner be banned than prosecuted for his crimes.

 

[glenn1]

To conservatives American culture means conservative white person culture. If you don’t like what America is and want to change it to be more like what conservative white people like then that’s great. If you don’t like what America is and want to change it to something that conservative white people like less then you hate America and should leave.

To be clear conservatives have no problem with people saying they don’t like America, they have problems with people not doing what they want.

To be fair, "conservative white person culture" is probably the plurality 'culture' in the U.S. Even if you argued about the "conservative" part of that statement then "white culture" is certainly the undisputed majority culture simply by sheer demographics even though that doesn't make it "better" than any of the other subcultures in the U.S.

That being said I'll stick with my "bigoted" instead of "racist" assessment of his statements in this particular instance. Kinda like for accuracy that Bernie Sanders is properly called a "social democrat" instead of a "socialist." In both cases the detractors want to use the more inflammatory word (socialist or racist) in cases where it's not completely applicable. There's zero doubt that Trump is a racist and has said unquestionably racist things before, but in this particular case the word "racist" isn't apt. The word loses its power when it's used loosely which is why I believe it should be reserved for unequivocably racist things. There's nothing the true racists (the ones who think that blacks are literally inferior to whites) would like better than the term "racist" to be casually applied to people who merely say things that horrify other races, or hold opinions based on prejudiced or bigoted ideas that lead to adverse results for other races but are clearly not racist in origin. Watering down the term "racist" to include anyone who simply acts in ways distasteful to other races or holds political positions that don't advance the interest of other racists is going to cause the term to stop serving as an actual call to arms for moral white Americans due to its overuse.

 

[fskimospy]

He got obliterated by Democrats reclaiming the center. Moderate candidates swung the House. The strategy works if he creates a perception that the Democrats are unified in a swing to the left.

He got obliterated because he and the Republicans pursued extremely unpopular policies and he himself was extremely unpopular. His response to that was racist hysteria exactly like this and he got crushed.

Hence my comment about “otherness”. Two of my grandparents were born here yet faced similar sentiments in the blue collar streets of NYC back in the 50s and 60s. The sentiment of assimilation applies.

As I said, cultural and melting pot expectations around assimilation

And two thirds of the country believe inmigrants should assimilate. He is playing a dangerous numbers and cultural identity game.

Saying things that 2/3rds of Americans think are racist is not going to help him in this regard. Again, ALL BUT ONE OF THE PEOPLE HE IS REFERRING TO ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS.

Also, who could possibly say AOC is not assimilated? He's university educated, her father was the president of an architecture firm in NYC. I just checked and apparently her grandparents were American citizens too, making her MORE of an American than Trump.

What I think you mean is that you think when people say they should assimilate they believe immigrants should come to act like conservative white people, which I strongly suspect is not what Americans mean at all when they say people should assimilate. After all I bet plenty of black Americans think immigrants should assimilate.

Chaos is a strategy and its central to his political rise and survival.

Like I said it appears his former senior advisers disagree, they say he has no strategy because he's not capable of the type of long term thinking or commitment to a plan of action that a strategy requires. He's reacting to criticism from other people and a perception of a momentary advantage that turned out to be wrong. When he got buried for it he's doing the same old amygdala activated 'ooh a fight!' response that he always has.

 

[vi edit]

I hesitated to wade into this dumpster fire...yet here I am. I agree with Glenn and the nuances.

To me, the real issue here isn't about a label. We simply need to focus on the fact that this is the behavior of the top honor position of the united states. Is this the behavior we expect and should demand from that position? Fighting over if it's racist or not doesn't fix anything. Focus on fact that is what is done over and over and over again just to spin up division and distraction. And we as voters have to decide if this is the behavior we really want for our commander in chief.

 

[HomerJS]

To be fair, "conservative white person culture" is probably the plurality 'culture' in the U.S. Even if you argued about the "conservative" part of that statement then "white culture" is certainly the undisputed majority culture simply by sheer demographics even though that doesn't make it "better" than any of the other subcultures in the U.S.
.

I conclude that is strictly due to population not necessarily a reflection on the quality of those values. Trump supporters are scared to death of the changing demographics and the future of losing that culture to what are now minorities. Hell, those people are angry at the cultural influence of those dark people on their precious little white children now.

 

[fskimospy]

To be fair, "conservative white person culture" is probably the plurality 'culture' in the U.S. Even if you argued about the "conservative" part of that statement then "white culture" is certainly the undisputed majority culture simply by sheer demographics even though that doesn't make it "better" than any of the other subcultures in the U.S.

I agree that white culture is the dominant culture in the US but 'conservative' white person culture definitely is not. After all, that's why they are always complaining about how mean TV and the movies are to them.

I also think one of the most important aspects of American culture is that our culture celebrates differences. At least that's what I learned in school.

That being said I'll stick with my "bigoted" instead of "racist" assessment of his statements in this particular instance. Kinda like for accuracy that Bernie Sanders is properly called a "social democrat" instead of a "socialist." In both cases the detractors want to use the more inflammatory word (socialist or racist) in cases where it's not completely applicable. There's zero doubt that Trump is a racist and has said unquestionably racist things before, but in this particular case the word "racist" isn't apt. The word loses its power when it's used loosely which is why I believe it should be reserved for unequivocably racist things. There's nothing the true racists (the ones who think that blacks are literally inferior to whites) would like better than the term "racist" to be casually applied to people who merely say things that horrify other races, or hold opinions based on prejudiced or bigoted ideas that lead to adverse results for other races but are clearly not racist in origin. Watering down the term "racist" to include anyone who simply acts in ways distasteful to other races or holds political positions that don't advance the interest of other racists is going to cause the term to stop serving as an actual call to arms for moral white Americans due to its overuse.

I don't really find much use in parsing exactly what word we want to assign to it because the behavior is equally reprehensible regardless of what aspect he's being bigoted against. I mean imagine if someone said 'I'm not an anti-Semite because of their race makes them globalist money grubbers, I think their religion makes them globalist money grubbers'. Nobody would think that's a meaningful difference.

 

[Indus]

He got obliterated by Democrats reclaiming the center. Moderate candidates swung the House. The strategy works if he creates a perception that the Democrats are unified in a swing to the left.

Hence my comment about “otherness”. Two of my grandparents were born here yet faced similar sentiments in the blue collar streets of NYC back in the 50s and 60s. The sentiment of assimilation applies.

As I said, cultural and melting pot expectations around assimilation

And two thirds of the country believe inmigrants should assimilate. He is playing a dangerous numbers and cultural identity game.

Chaos is a strategy and its central to his political rise and survival.

Once you pull the seams out, there's nothing keeping a baseball together and we know we have nothing in common with them.

People just won't accept being ruled by the "other side" and rigged elections. Wouldn't surprise me if the USA imploded in the next 10 years.

Racist mofos x 62 million can pretend they're not racist all they want but actions speak louder than words. We know what side those peeps picked.

 

[glenn1]

I don't really find much use in parsing exactly what word we want to assign to it because the behavior is equally reprehensible regardless of what aspect he's being bigoted against. I mean imagine if someone said 'I'm not an anti-Semite because of their race makes them globalist money grubbers, I think their religion makes them globalist money grubbers'. Nobody would think that's a meaningful difference.

Because things like religion and ethnicity aren't the same as race. Admittedly the "races" as currently imagined are an artificial construct, but they're real enough for most Americans to agree on them. If Trump said one of his typically abhorrent things to a person who was of the female sex, Caucasian race, Latino ethnicity, Jewish religion, and trans gender identity, if we were using precise language the statement still wouldn't be racism since it was said by a white person to a white person. Bigotry encompasses all of the following reprehensible things: racism, homophobia, misogyny, anti-semitism, prejudice against other ethnicities, etc.

Therefore even though "bigot" is a more encompassing/generic and less specific term than "racist" it's actually more precise in the case of both my hypothetical and what Trump said in real life to the 4 women. It's no less reprehensible than racist, just more accurate.

 

[Indus]

I hesitated to wade into this dumpster fire...yet here I am. I agree with Glenn and the nuances.

To me, the real issue here isn't about a label. We simply need to focus on the fact that this is the behavior of the top honor position of the united states. Is this the behavior we expect and should demand from that position? Fighting over if it's racist or not doesn't fix anything. Focus on fact that is what is done over and over and over again just to spin up division and distraction. And we as voters have to decide if this is the behavior we really want for our commander in chief.

The sad thing is it won't stop. His numbers are going to go up with Republicans and other racists i.e. uncle toms and there's a lot of them around.