Poll: Pandemic, Personal Liberty/Freedom vs Public Safety

[Ajay]

Effective at what? Sounds like he was talking about how effective they are at filtering out particles from others, which is not why we need mandates. Cloth masks are something like 75% effective at preventing infected people from spreading their germs. The fact that people still don't understand the difference is fucking maddening.

Yes, % of filtration (above a certain size particle). I've always had a problem with believing cloth masks were that effective - perhaps they are in a fairly open setting; due to the reduction in aerosol propagation velocity.

 

[dank69]

Yes, % of filtration (above a certain size particle). I've always had a problem with believing cloth masks were that effective - perhaps they are in a fairly open setting; due to the reduction in aerosol propagation velocity.

This post makes me think you still don't get it.

 

[Jhhnn]

Doesn't the answer vary based on population density? If you live in Toe Jam Arkansas the answer will be different than if you live in NYC. Even the vaccine question has qualifiers. I thought the vaccine was a game changer, pandemic over, life back to normal. That hasn't worked out the way I had hoped.

It would be more so if the GOP & their allies hadn't stymied vaccination efforts with a tidal wave of lies & distortions. Getting vaccinated is the only rational choice but you won't hear that on Fox.

 

[Greenman]

It would be more so if the GOP & their allies hadn't stymied vaccination efforts with a tidal wave of lies & distortions. Getting vaccinated is the only rational choice but you won't hear that on Fox.

I know a few who are simply frightened of the vaccine. They feel that both it's creation and approval were rushed. I got it cause I'm old, if I was 30 I'd have to think about it.

 

[ondma]

This one is tricky for more reasons than that. Note that two of your three "Examples of public health policies that are in place due to harm to others" involve drug or alcohol use. Some drugs are so poisonous that they are too easy to misuse with someone winding up dead. Some drugs are so sleep-inducing that they are too easily used for abduction. Certain drugs, such as synthetic amphetamines colloquially known as "bath salts", make a person so psychotic that they are likely to be a danger to others.

All that said, I would like to see more drugs available without a prescription. And I agree with the rest of your post.

I agree on number 3. In addition, serious illness caused by alcohol or drug abuse increases the burden on the health care system and ultimately drives up costs.

 

[ondma]

I know a few who are simply frightened of the vaccine. They feel that both it's creation and approval were rushed. I got it cause I'm old, if I was 30 I'd have to think about it.

I would have to think more strongly about not getting Covid or spreading it to others. IMO, anyone eligible for the vaccine has a civic responsibility to get vaccinated. Everything is life is a trade off and, again, IMO the balance is 99% in favor of the known benefits of the vaccine in contrast to some ambiguous, unforeseen possible future problem.

 

[hal2kilo]

I would have to think more strongly about not getting Covid or spreading it to others. IMO, anyone eligible for the vaccine has a civic responsibility to get vaccinated. Everything is life is a trade off and, again, IMO the balance is 99% in favor of the known benefits of the vaccine in contrast to some ambiguous, unforeseen possible future problem.

It doesn't help that several movies with the theme of a vaccine cure gone wrong have been produced in the last couple decades.

 

[Greenman]

It doesn't help that several movies with the theme of a vaccine cure gone wrong have been produced in the last couple decades.

I don't think it's the movies at all. It seems that there is a never ending stream of lawsuits against big pharma, with a definite profit over safety feel to their operations.
I understand people having some trepidation.

 

[Stokely]

I know a few who are simply frightened of the vaccine. They feel that both it's creation and approval were rushed. I got it cause I'm old, if I was 30 I'd have to think about it.

I hope the 30-year-olds aren't the same group as those who believe that hospitals are lying, they are empty and it's all a conspiracy. I know someone like that. I'm hearing reports from docs that they are seeing more and more younger people having to be put on ventilators--children and infants too. It's not that Delta is necessarily more virulent, it's that it's so much more contagious that way, way more people are getting it. I'm not that social, not on social media, yet I'm hearing every day from people that are testing positive, and sometimes their entire family.

mRNA tech has been around for quite a while. A lot of the research had already been done. Covid just made it urgent that it stopped being an experimental tech and got into the mainstream.


My kids are 15 and 19 and thankfully both have their shots. The science doesn't show much if any cause for concern over the vaccines. The science shows a LOT of concern about covid. it's an easy choice. If others want to roll the dice so be it--I only wish that if and when they got sick they wouldn't bother to go into the hospital, collapsing the health system.

 

[hal2kilo]

I don't think it's the movies at all. It seems that there is a never ending stream of lawsuits against big pharma, with a definite profit over safety feel to their operations.
I understand people having some trepidation.

Because they charge too much for their drugs, you won't take them even if they work?

 

[HomerJS]

Since we now have 4 people who voted for their own personal liberty over other's right to live now is your chance to elaborate.

Some are always ranting other opinions aren't listened to. Do it now. Why does your refusal to wear a mask or get vaccinated supersede the rights of others who come in contact with you. Feel free to treat mask and vaccines as two separate questions.

 

[ultimatebob]

Since we now have 4 people who voted for their own personal liberty over other's right to live now is your chance to elaborate.

Some are always ranting other opinions aren't listened to. Do it now. Why does your refusal to wear a mask or get vaccinated supersede the rights of others who come in contact with you. Feel free to treat mask and vaccines as two separate questions.

You're being overly dramatic, Homer. If you catch COVID and you're vaccinated (and you are vaccinated, right?), the odds of you dying or even getting seriously ill at this point are extremely low.

At this point, it's just time to just drop the restrictions and let herd immunity happen. Everybody is going to get Covid antibodies one way or another. The folks who didn't get vaccinated are going to get them the "hard" way, but that was their choice. It's also your choice to keep hiding in the basement from the virus if you want to do so, not that I would recommend it.

 

[woolfe9998]

I can't really answer the poll because it poses a classic tradeoff where its really a sliding scale where more of one equals less of the other. Not so much a binary proposition. In other words, I certainly wouldn't give up all personal freedom to promote public health. I have no problem with vaccine or mask mandates, depending on the situation. I would certainly have a problem if martial law was imposed to keep people indoors.

 

[Greenman]

Because they charge too much for their drugs, you won't take them even if they work?

Not about me. I've been vaccinated, I take prescription drugs when it's necessary.

 

[HomerJS]

You're being overly dramatic, Homer. If you catch COVID and you're vaccinated (and you are vaccinated, right?), the odds of you dying or even getting seriously ill at this point are extremely low.

At this point, it's just time to just drop the restrictions and let herd immunity happen. Everybody is going to get Covid antibodies one way or another. The folks who didn't get vaccinated are going to get them the "hard" way, but that was their choice. It's also your choice to keep hiding in the basement from the virus if you want to do so, not that I would recommend it.

You realize that attitude why the United States is leading the developed countries in COVID cases and death. That, I would call dramatic. Selfishness = spread. You are also not dealing with the issue of mutations which is how we got delta. We could natural herd immunity into a variant that would render the current vaccine ineffective. There were people screaming natural herd immunity when the COVID first came here. I suspect if we let that happen the death count would have been at least double. Also what about schools where vaccines are not approved for those kids yet.
Should they be required to mask up?

 

[MrSquished]

You're being overly dramatic, Homer. If you catch COVID and you're vaccinated (and you are vaccinated, right?), the odds of you dying or even getting seriously ill at this point are extremely low.

At this point, it's just time to just drop the restrictions and let herd immunity happen. Everybody is going to get Covid antibodies one way or another. The folks who didn't get vaccinated are going to get them the "hard" way, but that was their choice. It's also your choice to keep hiding in the basement from the virus if you want to do so, not that I would recommend it.

You could probably pull that off if the vaccination rates were higher.

Your theory is not working very well in a bunch of red States right now where healthcare systems are at their straining point, healthcare workers are burned out, and people that have non Covid healthcare needs in the hospitals are getting shafted.

But fuck those healthcare workers and those vaccinated people that need care in hospitals!

 

[Jhhnn]

I know a few who are simply frightened of the vaccine. They feel that both it's creation and approval were rushed. I got it cause I'm old, if I was 30 I'd have to think about it.

Maybe for a New York second. I can appreciate some hesitancy when the vaccines were new. I mean, nobody really wants to be the test pilot or the canary in the coal mine but we're well past that. It's just irrational silliness at this point, a form of mass hysteria.

 

[uclaLabrat]

The entire rationale of conservatives (specifically) that the vaccines (or any drugs in general) can't be trusted because pharma is just there to make money is especially hilarious given that it's an exercise in denying capitalism.

If pharma companies were able to derive the full market value of their efforts, vaccines giving 85% success against an infection with a 1-3% case fatality rate would probably be worth north of $20k if I'm just making up a number. Certainly worth more than say, an iphone.

Pharma companies with successful vaccines are almost certainly leaving a ton of money on the table. Really just shows their lack of commitment to conservative principals.

At least socialists decrying the high cost of pharma care are being logically consistent 😂

 

[Greenman]

The entire rationale of conservatives (specifically) that the vaccines (or any drugs in general) can't be trusted because pharma is just there to make money is especially hilarious given that it's an exercise in denying capitalism.

If pharma companies were able to derive the full market value of their efforts, vaccines giving 85% success against an infection with a 1-3% case fatality rate would probably be worth north of $20k if I'm just making up a number. Certainly worth more than say, an iphone.

Pharma companies with successful vaccines are almost certainly leaving a ton of money on the table. Really just shows their lack of commitment to conservative principals.

At least socialists decrying the high cost of pharma care are being logically consistent 😂

Interesting view of the issue. If people were given the choice between being given the vaccine or a new iphone, I'd be willing to bet a sizable portion would take the phone.

 

[Jhhnn]

You could probably pull that off if the vaccination rates were higher.

Your theory is not working very well in a bunch of red States right now where healthcare systems are at their straining point, healthcare workers are burned out, and people that have non Covid healthcare needs in the hospitals are getting shafted.

But fuck those healthcare workers and those vaccinated people that need care in hospitals!

Left to their own devices, the covidiots will obviously hog all the hospital resources they can get. The fact that the place is full of them will prevent & discourage care that would otherwise.benefit millions. The selfish stupidity of it all is appalling.

 

[H T C]

I just collected a few statistics of TWO periods of 23 days here in Portugal, starting the day after the peak of the 1st wave and starting the day after the peak of this 4th wave to see the impact the vaccination has had, thus far: keep in mind that the 1st wave had the original variant while this 4th wave has the delta variant.

From April 11th 2020 until May 3rd 2020:

- 9810 new cases in total
- 573 fatalities in total
- 1098 daily hospitalized, on average
- 196 daily ICU, on average

From July 22nd 2021 until August 13th 2021:

- 58925 new cases in total
- 289 fatalities in total
- 876 daily hospitalized, on average
- 182 daily ICU, on average

6 times more new cases but 50% fewer fatalities, 20% fewer hospitalized on average and 7% fewer in ICU on average.

These numbers speak for themselves.

 

[Jhhnn]

Interesting view of the issue. If people were given the choice between being given the vaccine or a new iphone, I'd be willing to bet a sizable portion would take the phone.

It's worse than you think. They refuse vaccination & end up paying a heavy premium with a rent to own plan on the phone. Insurance is extra.

 

[Pohemi]

I just collected a few statistics of TWO periods of 23 days here in Portugal, starting the day after the peak of the 1st wave and starting the day after the peak of this 4th wave to see the impact the vaccination has had, thus far: keep in mind that the 1st wave had the original variant while this 4th wave has the delta variant.

From April 11th 2020 until May 3rd 2020:

- 9810 new cases in total
- 573 fatalities in total
- 1098 daily hospitalized, on average
- 196 daily ICU, on average

From July 22nd 2021 until August 13th 2021:

- 58925 new cases in total
- 289 fatalities in total
- 876 daily hospitalized, on average
- 182 daily ICU, on average

6 times more new cases but 50% fewer fatalities, 20% fewer hospitalized on average and 7% fewer in ICU on average.

These numbers speak for themselves.

While those stats show plenty in my opinion, I'm also curious what percentages of the deaths and ICU beds in the latter set were unvaccinated people. I'm willing to bet it's a large majority or most of the 289 deaths and 182 lying in the ICU daily.

 

[Jhhnn]

While those stats show plenty in my opinion, I'm also curious what percentages of the deaths and ICU beds in the latter set were unvaccinated people. I'm willing to bet it's a large majority or most of the 289 deaths and 182 lying in the ICU daily.

Of course it is. That's the same everywhere, I'm sure. Vaccination *radically* reduces the chances of serious illness or death. Mere fact.

 

[H T C]

While those stats show plenty in my opinion, I'm also curious what percentages of the deaths and ICU beds in the latter set were unvaccinated people. I'm willing to bet it's a large majority or most of the 289 deaths and 182 lying in the ICU daily.

I don't have access to those stats, unfortunately.

Here's a breakdown of Portugal's vaccination efforts by age:



Top: left is 1st dose only, and right is fully vaccinated.

Middle: left is age groups, center is @ least 1 dose, and right is fully vaccinated

Bottom: left is doses the country received, and right is doses the country administered.



This weekend Portugal is mass vaccinating those aged 16 and 17 in preparation for school: there are roughly 210K people in that age bracket in Portugal.

EDIT

Back on July 4th, this was on Portugal's news channels: "here in Portugal, and according to our Health Department (DGS), out of 2.5M people fully vaccinated, 2357 still got the virus but only 52 required hospitalization", meaning ZERO deaths.

NOTE that, @ this point in time, Delta variant wasn't as prevalent here in Portugal as it is now so things MAY HAVE CHANGED since then.