Poll: Pandemic, Personal Liberty/Freedom vs Public Safety

[vi edit]

And for the glue eaters in the back not paying attention, we haven't seen stuff like this since WWII.

 

[HomerJS]

In 2020 <39,000 died from auto related accidents. COVID deaths 345,000

Some people are soooooo stupid

 

[vi edit]

Our life expectancy has dropped at a rate almost no one alive at this time has seen. Opioid epidemic that has been a raging inferno but mostly swept under the rug was really pushing it hard before Covid. And then Covid hit and hasn't let up.

 

[woolfe9998]

So I was listening to local talk radio in my car and this guy was discussing anti-maskers. Plays an audio of a woman speaking at a school board meeting in Alabama. And she says, and I QUOTE:

"If God intended for us to wear masks, we'd have been born that way."

No, seriously.

All I could think of was, well if God meant for us to wear pants, we'd have been born with them too. So I guess that means all pants are out.

 

[shortylickens]

Our life expectancy has dropped at a rate almost no one alive at this time has seen. Opioid epidemic that has been a raging inferno but mostly swept under the rug was really pushing it hard before Covid. And then Covid hit and hasn't let up.

Yeah the five or six politicians NOT being paid off by drug companies are still scared shitless their voters might realize they've done nothing to stand up to corruption the last 20 years or so.
I actually remember a time when it was not legal to advertise prescription drugs, and the day that changed a few pundits said it would eventually turn America into a drug addicted nation.
Everyone laughed at them.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Until the vaccine, I was on the public safety side. After the vaccine, I'm on the personal liberty side, especially for something that overwhelmingly does not affect children.

If you're an adult and don't have a vaccine at this point, then *shrug*. But don't impose lockdowns and mandates on me because 1/3 of the population are backwards dumbfucks.

 

[H T C]

Until the vaccine, I was on the public safety side. After the vaccine, I'm on the personal liberty side, especially for something that overwhelmingly does not affect children.

If you're an adult and don't have a vaccine at this point, then *shrug*. But don't impose lockdowns and mandates on me because 1/3 of the population are backwards dumbfucks.

Children pass the virus on as easily as adults do and, while is doesn't affect children AS MUCH as it does older people, it DOES affect children: just look @ the pediatric hospitals being full in COVID stricken areas.

If this weren't a pandemic, you could exercise all the personal liberties you'd want. Unfortunately, and because this IS A PANDEMIC, exercising personal liberties CAN HAVE a direct consequence other people's lives, which is why it SHOULD NOT take priority.


ALL COUNTRIES should seriously consider placing something like this in to law: "when facing a pandemic (and SPECIFY PANDEMIC in order to avoid abusing this), public safety takes precedence over personal liberties, and if ways to significantly reduce it's spreading are found, have them enforced on to the population, until such time as the danger has passed".

 

[Meghan54]

Until the vaccine, I was on the public safety side. After the vaccine, I'm on the personal liberty side, especially for something that overwhelmingly does not affect children.

If you're an adult and don't have a vaccine at this point, then *shrug*. But don't impose lockdowns and mandates on me because 1/3 of the population are backwards dumbfucks.

So basically you’re an idiot. Gotcha.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Children pass the virus on as easily as adults do and, while is doesn't affect children AS MUCH as it does older people, it DOES affect children: just look @ the pediatric hospitals being full in COVID stricken areas.

If this weren't a pandemic, you could exercise all the personal liberties you'd want. Unfortunately, and because this IS A PANDEMIC, exercising personal liberties CAN HAVE a direct consequence other people's lives, which is why it SHOULD NOT take priority.


ALL COUNTRIES should seriously consider placing something like this in to law: "when facing a pandemic (and SPECIFY PANDEMIC in order to avoid abusing this), public safety takes precedence over personal liberties, and if ways to significantly reduce it's spreading are found, have them enforced on to the population, until such time as the danger has passed".

- For kids we're still looking at a 1% hospitalization rate, which is double the prior hospitalization rate pre-delta but still extremely low.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Kids of course can spread Covid, but its either to other kids, who are overwhelmingly unaffected by Covid, or to adults who should have access to the vaccine and be broadly protected from at least severe illness and hospitalization. If the adults are unvaccinated and they get Covid then they can let Jesus guide the gurney.

So basically you’re an idiot. Gotcha.

- I am completely open to the idea that I may be an idiot, I have never known myself to profess some boundless knowledge or understanding of the world I occupy, but I'll need more than "you're an idiot" to change my position on this.

Maybe my risk tolerance is just higher than other people but the existence of an easily accessible vaccine, combined with a low risk of severe illness or death in children as well as the vaccinated, compounded by the secondary damage (emotional/social) on people as a result of the preceding (justified) lockdowns, with a dash of pragmatism regarding the potential political consequences of "imposing" standards on intransigent folks who maybe need reality to slap them across the face a bit and that's how you end up where I am with this right now.

Frankly we would be better served getting the rest of the world vaccinated rather than all the sovereign state people in butt-fuck Alabama.

 

[dank69]

So I was listening to local talk radio in my car and this guy was discussing anti-maskers. Plays an audio of a woman speaking at a school board meeting in Alabama. And she says, and I QUOTE:

"If God intended for us to wear masks, we'd have been born that way."

No, seriously.

All I could think of was, well if God meant for us to wear pants, we'd have been born with them too. So I guess that means all pants are out.

The best part is she was wearing glasses. No, really.

 

[dank69]

- For kids we're still looking at a 1% hospitalization rate, which is double the prior hospitalization rate pre-delta but still extremely low.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Kids of course can spread Covid, but its either to other kids, who are overwhelmingly unaffected by Covid, or to adults who should have access to the vaccine and be broadly protected from at least severe illness and hospitalization. If the adults are unvaccinated and they get Covid then they can let Jesus guide the gurney.



- I am completely open to the idea that I may be an idiot, I have never known myself to profess some boundless knowledge or understanding of the world I occupy, but I'll need more than "you're an idiot" to change my position on this.

Maybe my risk tolerance is just higher than other people but the existence of an easily accessible vaccine, combined with a low risk of severe illness or death in children as well as the vaccinated, compounded by the secondary damage (emotional/social) on people as a result of the preceding (justified) lockdowns, with a dash of pragmatism regarding the potential political consequences of "imposing" standards on intransigent folks who maybe need reality to slap them across the face a bit and that's how you end up where I am with this right now.

Frankly we would be better served getting the rest of the world vaccinated rather than all the sovereign state people in butt-fuck Alabama.

Yes, 1 out of 100 kids ends up in the hospital, no big deal. Fuck outta here.

 

[woolfe9998]

To be honest, I'm kind of undecided about masks in schools myself. Yes, children can get COVID, but children do not often die from it. As of two weeks ago, 358 children had died in the US from COVID, out of ~640,000 deaths.

While that doesn't make it harmless to children, it does make it less deadly than the flu, for children. And of course we don't have our kids wearing masks in school, year after year, to prevent flu deaths.

The very fact that we do not strongly suggests that, as I said earlier in the thread, personal liberty is on a sliding scale tradeoff with public health. And one factor in determining where we balance that scale is the danger, in statistical terms, presented by the infectious disease. We don't do it for the flu because it doesn't cause enough deaths among children to justify the restriction.

As for teachers, they need to all be vaxxed and if they are not, that is their problem. I feel the same way about everyone who can legally get vaxxed and refuses to do so.

I'm more comfortable with the indoor mandates for adults going to stores and restaurants. But not so sure about school mask mandates.

I fully support reasonable measures to promote public health during a pandemic, but I cannot make a blanket statement that public health always supersedes personal liberty during a pandemic, because it depends on the degree of the restrictions on the one hand, and the harm sought to be avoided on the other.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Yes, 1 out of 100 kids ends up in the hospital, no big deal. Fuck outta here.

- 1 out of 100 kids who are test positive for Covid, which adds in its own set of complications. Actual infection rate is likely far higher and true hospitalization rate is likely far lower.

 

[vi edit]

To be honest, I'm kind of undecided about masks in schools myself. Yes, children can get COVID, but children do not often die from it. As of two weeks ago, 358 children had died in the US from COVID, out of ~640,000 deaths.

I've said this over and over again. IT IS MORE THAN DEATHS. There are serious long term diseases we are still trying to understand. I'm 18 months out and my taste and smell are fucked. A good friend of mine had one of her 12 year daughters get Covid and she's almost a year out now and hasn't got her smell back. Imagine being 12 and worrying if you will ever be able to smell again. It's messed her up bad, and the poor kid already had a pretty bad baseline anxiety before Covid.

Sure it's not a number in the death column, but these are kids that could have their quality of life forever impacted.

Kids aren't snowflakes over masks, particularly the young ones that can't get vaccinated yet. A lot of them actually like it. It keeps them warm when it's cool, they are cute and they feel like little ninjas. Don't let a bunch of toddler adults ruin it for them.

 

[dank69]

- 1 out of 100 kids who are test positive for Covid, which adds in its own set of complications. Actual infection rate is likely far higher and true hospitalization rate is likely far lower.

Oh good, no big deal like I said.

 

[woolfe9998]

I've said this over and over again. IT IS MORE THAN DEATHS. There are serious long term diseases we are still trying to understand. I'm 18 months out and my taste and smell are fucked. A good friend of mine had one of her 12 year daughters get Covid and she's almost a year out now and hasn't got her smell back. Imagine being 12 and worrying if you will ever be able to smell again. It's messed her up bad, and the poor kid already had a pretty bad baseline anxiety before Covid.

Sure it's not a number in the death column, but these are kids that could have their quality of life forever impacted.

Kids aren't snowflakes over masks, particularly the young ones that can't get vaccinated yet. A lot of them actually like it. It keeps them warm when it's cool, they are cute and they feel like little ninjas. Don't let a bunch of toddler adults ruin it for them.

Yeah, I know all that. But let's break it down. So one disease kills more children, while the other kills less, but may have long term complications. For the one that kills more, no one in the entire country has suggested a mask requirement, but for the one that kills less but can have complications, they must all mask when in school. Also, bear in mind that these complications usually attend more severe cases, and just as children are a lot less likely to die, they are also a lot less likely to have a severe case.

I stand by what I said. We are never going to save every single last person from death or serious disease. We have to balance our public safety with personal liberty. Usually during this pandemic, I have favored the public safety side. But in the case of masks being required in schools, I'm not so sure.

 

[vi edit]

Yeah, I know all that. But let's break it down. So one disease kills more children, while the other kills less, but may have long term complications. For the one that kills more, no one in the entire country has suggested a mask requirement, but for the one that kills less but can have complications, they must all mask when in school. Also, bear in mind that these complications usually attend more severe cases, and just as children are a lot less likely to die, they are also a lot less likely to have a severe case.

I stand by what I said. We are never going to save every single last person from death or serious disease. We have to balance our public safety with personal liberty. Usually during this pandemic, I have favored the public safety side. But in the case of masks being required in schools, I'm not so sure.

That's a fucking lazy answer and half the reason we're seeing the spikes we are.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Oh good, no big deal like I said.

- Glad we agree then

Life is full of risks and we take reasonable mitigating steps but have to accept that we can never make things risk free or potentially doing so can have greater consequences than the very thing we're looking to mitigate.

 

[woolfe9998]

That's a fucking lazy answer and half the reason we're seeing the spikes we are.

No, that right there is a lazy answer. Please explain what a more diligent answer is supposed to look like.

 

[vi edit]

No, that right there is a lazy answer. Please explain what a more diligent answer is supposed to look like.

That we look at the scoreboard on school districts with no mask mandates and see the 10's of thousands of cases in the south and don't repeat their stupidity. Put a fucking mask mandate in schools and and at least do *something*. Instead of arguing over the internet with mushy mouthed indifference.

 

[woolfe9998]

That we look at the scoreboard on school districts with no mask mandates and see the 10's of thousands of cases in the south and don't repeat their stupidity. Put a fucking mask mandate in schools and and at least do *something*. Instead of arguing over the internet with mushy mouthed indifference.

That is a sentiment, not an argument. Especially that last sentence.

The south is in bad shape because of its low vaccination rate, and because of their shitty attitude about masks in general. I suppose we could just "do something" - which in this case is protecting the least vulnerable part of the population.

I get it. You don't see any tradeoffs here. You think if we can save any number of people, no matter how small, then we should just do it. I don't see it that way.

 

[vi edit]

That is a sentiment, not an argument. Especially that last sentence.

The south is in bad shape because of its low vaccination rate, and because of their shitty attitude about masks in general. I suppose we could just "do something" - which in this case is protecting the least vulnerable part of the population.

I get it. You don't see any tradeoffs here. You think if we can save any number of people, no matter how small, then we should just do it. I don't see it that way.

Will you get it through you thick skull it's not just deaths. A kid can spend weeks in an ICU and it's not a death. But you are still sitting there clutching whatever gives you some comfort they'll pull through plus whatever the medical bills add up to be.

It's hospitals being overwhelmed that they are turning away patients of any type because they have no place to put them. If you step out your door and get hit by a bus there's a good chance in many parts of the country you'll lay on a cart in a hallway until they can get to you because they are overrun with Covid patients.

This isn't *just* a vaccinate and make it go away. Kids under 12 *can't* be vaccinated. I've got three people in my house that are and my 10 year old can't because he's too young. Same goes for every kid in that age group. They are both vulnerable and able to spread. There is *no* downside to having them wear a mask while in schools. We are seeing surges in hospitals that we have never seen before. There is no other math or feels to this.

 

[woolfe9998]

Will you get it through you thick skull it's not just deaths. A kid can spend weeks in an ICU and it's not a death. But you are still sitting there clutching whatever gives you some comfort they'll pull through plus whatever the medical bills add up to be.

It's hospitals being overwhelmed that they are turning away patients of any type because they have no place to put them. If you step out your door and get hit by a bus there's a good chance in many parts of the country you'll lay on a cart in a hallway until they can get to you because they overrun with Covid patients.

This isn't *just* a vaccinate and make it go away. Kids under 12 *can't* be vaccinated. I've got three people in my house that are and my 10 year old can't because he's too young. Same goes for every kid in that age group. They are both vulnerable and able to spread. There is *no* downside to having them wear a mask while in schools. We are seeing surges in hospitals that we have never seen before. There is no other math or feels to this.

Already replied to this point. Children are not only far less likely to die. They are far less likely to see long term complications and far less likely to require hospitalization and ICU beds. For all intents and purposes, an unvaccinated child stands in about the same shoes as a vaccinated adult. Probably safer. The vaccinated are .5% of the deaths and 10% of hospitalizations. With everyone vaxxed or under 12, or both, this won't be a public health crisis anymore.

I disagree with "this isn't *just* a vaccinate and make it go away." Because it is. With the adult population being anywhere near fully vaccinated, this will become a flu. Plenty of cases, some serious complications, some deaths. 30-50K every year. That is why we don't require mask wearing in perpetuity for the flu. Yet we could. I mean, masks are easy, right? So why weren't we already required to wear them? It's not like we didn't have an airborne infectious disease which was killing Americans every year.

 

[H T C]

- For kids we're still looking at a 1% hospitalization rate, which is double the prior hospitalization rate pre-delta but still extremely low.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview

COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.

www.webmd.com

Kids of course can spread Covid, but its either to other kids, who are overwhelmingly unaffected by Covid, or to adults who should have access to the vaccine and be broadly protected from at least severe illness and hospitalization. If the adults are unvaccinated and they get Covid then they can let Jesus guide the gurney.



- I am completely open to the idea that I may be an idiot, I have never known myself to profess some boundless knowledge or understanding of the world I occupy, but I'll need more than "you're an idiot" to change my position on this.

Maybe my risk tolerance is just higher than other people but the existence of an easily accessible vaccine, combined with a low risk of severe illness or death in children as well as the vaccinated, compounded by the secondary damage (emotional/social) on people as a result of the preceding (justified) lockdowns, with a dash of pragmatism regarding the potential political consequences of "imposing" standards on intransigent folks who maybe need reality to slap them across the face a bit and that's how you end up where I am with this right now.

Frankly we would be better served getting the rest of the world vaccinated rather than all the sovereign state people in butt-fuck Alabama.

The problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

Just because adults have access to vaccines DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE VACCINATED thanks to "personal liberties and other similar reasons" AND, even if they are vaccinated, the odds of them catching the virus is higher with Delta variant than it was with previous variants, so they too can pass the virus to someone else, thus prolonging the problem.

To be honest, I'm kind of undecided about masks in schools myself. Yes, children can get COVID, but children do not often die from it. As of two weeks ago, 358 children had died in the US from COVID, out of ~640,000 deaths.

While that doesn't make it harmless to children, it does make it less deadly than the flu, for children. And of course we don't have our kids wearing masks in school, year after year, to prevent flu deaths.

The very fact that we do not strongly suggests that, as I said earlier in the thread, personal liberty is on a sliding scale tradeoff with public health. And one factor in determining where we balance that scale is the danger, in statistical terms, presented by the infectious disease. We don't do it for the flu because it doesn't cause enough deaths among children to justify the restriction.

As for teachers, they need to all be vaxxed and if they are not, that is their problem. I feel the same way about everyone who can legally get vaxxed and refuses to do so.

I'm more comfortable with the indoor mandates for adults going to stores and restaurants. But not so sure about school mask mandates.

I fully support reasonable measures to promote public health during a pandemic, but I cannot make a blanket statement that public health always supersedes personal liberty during a pandemic, because it depends on the degree of the restrictions on the one hand, and the harm sought to be avoided on the other.

Like i said above, the problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

 

[vi edit]

If you have kids you do have some concerns too.

I have kids. I have concerns.