Again, if it was a white holiday, would it be alright? Maybe you support double standards, but I sure don't.
Lots of bigots in this thread. Just because it was founded by a sleezy character doesn't mean those celebrating it are sleezy themselves. What is Christmas? But celebration of what a fat guy use to do on an arbitrary day of the year that some person denoted as Christ's birthday (it was actually a Pagan holiday)... or the celebration of the 'founder' of the nation, who was a slaver and murderer who's atrocities were so bad that even the Queen of Spain ordered him to cool it.
Yes, we're bigots now, simply because we don't agree with something and it happens to be race related. Bravo
Maybe you should also try reading the thread. We covered Christmas. And I don't support Columbus day either, FYI.
That's the problem with some people, so fast to should "Racist" and not bother questioning something simply because it is race related.
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Yes, we're bigots now, simply because we don't agree with something and it happens to be race related. Bravo
Have you looked at the other posts in this thread? What's the point in having a HELL NO option unless it's to insult them? Just because somebody wants the holiday, and your only reasoning for NOT having it is because it's celebrated by blacks and founded by a bad person. Should we not have any other holidays like xmas, easter, etc, since they're religious holidays.
It is when your only reason against it are entirely race. What does the founder of the holiday have anything to do with it? Like i said, all your other holidays were founded on shady reasons too.
Really, why does what anybody else celebrate concern you in any way? You can't tell me you have holidays that EVERYBODY celebrates as well?
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Yes, we're bigots now, simply because we don't agree with something and it happens to be race related. Bravo
Have you looked at the other posts in this thread? What's the point in having a HELL NO option unless it's to insult them?
I added that after somebody requested I do. How does the strength of somebody's opinion make them a bigot? If I disagree with something, I am fine, but if I strongly disagree with something, I am a bigot? There are some trolls in here, but we all know that, they have always been trolls.
Just because somebody wants the holiday, and your only reasoning for NOT having it is because it's celebrated by blacks and founded by a bad person.
Way to paint me as a racist. It's obvious that you haven't read this thread at all, so I won't bother rebutting this assinine comment.
Should we not have any other holidays like xmas, easter, etc, since they're religious holidays.
Religion is not the debate. If you had read the thread you would know that.
It is when your only reason against it are entirely race.
The only reasons for it are entirely 'race'. My reason against it is my opposition to racism and ignorance, which is exactly what this holiday embodies.
What does the founder of the holiday have anything to do with it? Like i said, all your other holidays were founded on shady reasons too.
The combination of the creator's history, the circumstances of it's creation, the motives behind it's creation, and the elements within it are the problem.
Really, why does what anybody else celebrate concern you in any way? You can't tell me you have holidays that EVERYBODY celebrates as well?
If people started celebrating a white supremacy holiday officially recognized by the government, should nobody else have a problem with that as well?
I did read the thread. Just because you don't want to argue about it, don't blame it on me. And religion is not the debate. Your only reason is because blacks celebrate the holiday because the person that founded it was bad. Take out the founder, and the only reason why you're against it is because blacks are celebrating it. They're a group of people. Religion itself serves to a group of people as well. You really can't see the link? Just because i mention religion, doesn't mean it has to be a religious debate. Is that that hard to comprehend?
This is where your ignorance comes to play. Just because it was founded by a black supremacist, doesnt' mean what they celebrate is black supremacy. These are blacks, who are normally not Christians, wanting a day to celebrate with the rest of the nation at the same period, but wanting their own meaning to it. This is VERY similar to how Christmas was founded if you're ignorant of it.
Well i can see how you argue, and you take everything out of context, so i won't continue. But i never said blacks don't celebrate Christmas. If you would actually read an entire paragraph at a time rather than just single sentences, you would notice i said blacks, who don't normally celebrate xmas, celebrate kwanzaa. Not all blacks are Christian you know.
Anyways, you obviously can't come up with anything more than one liners, so i won't bother continuing with this.
Anyways, you obviously can't come up with anything more than one liners, so i won't bother continuing with this.
it's arguing in a revolving door.
"Just because it was founded by a black supremacist, doesnt' mean what they celebrate is black supremacy. "
-- this was brought up but never arugued on MACBAINE's part. if i can remember.
"Take out the founder, and the only reason why you're against it is because blacks are celebrating it. "
-- same with this
Blacks are normally not Christian?
-=- most are Baptist
Go read through the official Kwanzaa website, replace "African American" with "White", and tell me what you think. I know you won't do that though, because it might prove you wrong.
=-= pfft .. you can use this blanket statement with any ETHNICITY.
Types of FALLACIES
"Just because it was founded by a black supremacist, doesnt' mean what they celebrate is black supremacy. "
-- this was brought up but never arugued on MACBAINE's part. if i can remember.
"Take out the founder, and the only reason why you're against it is because blacks are celebrating it. "
-- same with this
Blacks are normally not Christian?
-=- most are Baptist
Go read through the official Kwanzaa website, replace "African American" with "White", and tell me what you think. I know you won't do that though, because it might prove you wrong.
=-= pfft .. you can use this blanket statement with any ETHNICITY.
Types of FALLACIES
I'm sorry that I dispute individual statements made, as it is much easier to respond to an argument this way rather than making a blanket statement which may not address every comment made. Much of my briefness now is due to the fact that much of these points have been argued several times throughout the thread, and I have said everything that I care to say on them already.
Sweet name calling there. Seems to me that you are uncomfortable with what I, and a good number of people here, believe. I am uncomfortable with a holiday because it is based on principals which I disagree with. I stated my argument, others stated theirs, we are having a rather civil debate compared to some flame fests which usually occur here. Of course there are occasionally trolls such as yourself which find it necessary to resort to name calling and personal attacks. Looks like you win this debate!
[AndrewR:] "If Kwanzaa is such a racially inclusive holiday, then why are there only blacks in all Kwanzaa cards?"
Wow, let's apply your logic, AndrewR: If Christmas is such racially and universally inclusive holiday, how come all traditions adopted to symbolise Christmas are of European or White origin, and the Jesus depicted is always White even though he's of Middle Eastern origin?
[Moral Panic:] "These are blacks, who are normally not Christians, wanting a day to celebrate with the rest of the nation at the same period, but wanting their own meaning to it. This is VERY similar to how Christmas was founded if you're ignorant of it."
So one doesn't get a false impression from this post: Christmas and Kwanzaa are not mutually exclusive. I have been to Black churches where both are celebrated. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, so Christians can and do celebrate it.
Also, the holiday starts on the 26th until the 1st of January. So if the intent of those who adopted it was to "spite the White man" or his holiday, they would not have picked the 26th and dragged it on to the first of January.
MacBaine, have you noted yourself that you keep on pulling this game of, "This has been discussed earlier. I'm not going to rehash it." People go back to read it and see that you evaded the questions posed earlier, so there really wasn't a discussion as you keep on saying.
"You can read through the official Kwanzaa website, or through his book on the origins of Kwanzaa and see how blatent this fact is."
By the way, I visited the official site, I don't see anything objectionable or of racist nature. Care to point out this blatant fact you speak of? It's amazing that I just learned from you that people who adopt ideas on books authored necessarily subscribe to all ideas in the books and the exact rules. Funny our founders didn't follow the exact ideas, word for word, of the great philosophers.
Wow, let's apply your logic, AndrewR: If Christmas is such racially and universally inclusive holiday, how come all traditions adopted to symbolise Christmas are of European or White origin, and the Jesus depicted is always White even though he's of Middle Eastern origin?
[Moral Panic:] "These are blacks, who are normally not Christians, wanting a day to celebrate with the rest of the nation at the same period, but wanting their own meaning to it. This is VERY similar to how Christmas was founded if you're ignorant of it."
So one doesn't get a false impression from this post: Christmas and Kwanzaa are not mutually exclusive. I have been to Black churches where both are celebrated. Kwanzaa is not a religious holiday, so Christians can and do celebrate it.
Also, the holiday starts on the 26th until the 1st of January. So if the intent of those who adopted it was to "spite the White man" or his holiday, they would not have picked the 26th and dragged it on to the first of January.
MacBaine, have you noted yourself that you keep on pulling this game of, "This has been discussed earlier. I'm not going to rehash it." People go back to read it and see that you evaded the questions posed earlier, so there really wasn't a discussion as you keep on saying.
"You can read through the official Kwanzaa website, or through his book on the origins of Kwanzaa and see how blatent this fact is."
By the way, I visited the official site, I don't see anything objectionable or of racist nature. Care to point out this blatant fact you speak of? It's amazing that I just learned from you that people who adopt ideas on books authored necessarily subscribe to all ideas in the books and the exact rules. Funny our founders didn't follow the exact ideas, word for word, of the great philosophers.
Originally posted by: luvly
[AndrewR:] "If Kwanzaa is such a racially inclusive holiday, then why are there only blacks in all Kwanzaa cards?"
Wow, let's apply your logic, AndrewR: If Christmas is such racially and universally inclusive holiday, how come all traditions adopted to symbolise Christmas are of European origin?
Applying your own argument to yourself, if Kwanzaa is racially inclusive holiday, how come all traditions adopted to symbolize Kwanzaa are of 'African' in origin?You can argue that the principals of Kwanzaa are universal, as I'm sure you will, but the same is true of Christmas, even more so. Pease on Earth and Goodwill toward men? Doesn't say anything about Goodwill toward White men only. Family and Friendship? See where I am going? What does the official site say Kwanzaa is?
Doesn't seem as racially inclusive as some people have suggested.
Also, the holiday starts on the 26th until the 1st of January. So if the intent of those who adopted it was to "spite the White man" or his holiday, they would not have picked the 26th and dragged it on to the first of January.
Seems like that was the intent
MacBaine, have you noted yourself that you keep on pulling this game of, "This has been discussed earlier. I'm not going to rehash it." People go back to read it and see that you evaded the questions posed earlier, so there really wasn't a discussion as you keep on saying.
What questions have I evaded which I haven't already stated my opinion on and argued over? If there are some questions which haven't been addressed by me, they have been addressed by others. Please bring the rest to my attention.
"You can read through the official Kwanzaa website, or through his book on the origins of Kwanzaa and see how blatent this fact is."
By the way, I visited the official site, I don't see anything objectionable or of racist nature. Care to point out this blatant fact you speak of?
This one caught my attention
It's amazing that I just learned from you that people who adopt ideas on books authored necessarily subscribe to all ideas in the books and the exact rules. Funny our founders didn't follow the exact ideas, word for word, of the great philosophers.
Seems like the official Kwanzaa organization stresses the fact that people should subscribe to all ideas in the books and the exact rules. Hm.
what's that got to do with Christmas. i was just clarifying that most African Americans are Baptist. did you ask? i answered. throw out Christmas and you're statement is just adding fuel to another fire.
no, but it can be applied to make any event 'racist'.
So if someone outlined a webpage and said "officialchinesenewyear" and said Chinese people pay homage to ancestors. Chinese people hand out luck red envelopes to each other ....
if we replaced the ethnicity of CHinese to say "WHITE" ... is it racist?
is it excluively Chinese? do they seperate themselves?
Well, first off, if we had a White New Year, yes, it would be considered racist by a large majority of the population. Secondly, If the Chinese had invented Chinese New Year to be a Chinese alternative to the 'White' New Year, I would disagree with that as well.
It was created in the 60's by a black power activist. While some aspects of it are loosely based on ancient African tribal celebrations (which were never, for all our knowledge, considered any sort of African holiday), much of the customs and traditions are, by his own admittance, of his own invention.
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