Originally posted by: OIKOS
HELLLLL NO!! lol...i think anything other than x'mas = BANNN!! :|
Thanks for your input...
Thanks for your input...
"Even if the original African tribal traditions which Kwanzaa was losely based on were not race related, Krenga's incarnation of it in America is purely racial."
Yes, and when was Kwanzaa adopted by the majority/regular Blacks? Was it adopted in 1977? Were every words in the book of the author followed? It appears you have absolutely no experience with the rituals of the "Kwanzaa" that you're criticising. If you do, please tell me if the people who celebrate it have followed the law of the book you have referenced. I would love to see a complete match of both.
You are also giving credence to the statement of the psychiatrist that this man was schizophrenic, yet you still proceed to base your argument upon his racial philosophy. You don't think it's possible that his schizophrenia influenced his decision to join the radical movement, and he was hallucinating?
Also, I should ask again how you or anyone concluded that Kwanzaa and Chistmas (or any holidays) were mutually exclusive. Kwanzaa as far as I know is not a religion, so it isn't followed as a law with the founder worshipped. I have been to "Black" churches where both Christmas and Kwanzaa are celebrated.
By the way, do you think the Muslim holiday, Ramadan or Eid al-Fitr, is illegimate too, since only Muslims celebrate it (i.e, it hasn't obtained the secular status, unlike Christmas); and you know we have this circulating theory of how the founder told his followers to kill all infidels?
Yes, and when was Kwanzaa adopted by the majority/regular Blacks? Was it adopted in 1977? Were every words in the book of the author followed? It appears you have absolutely no experience with the rituals of the "Kwanzaa" that you're criticising. If you do, please tell me if the people who celebrate it have followed the law of the book you have referenced. I would love to see a complete match of both.
You are also giving credence to the statement of the psychiatrist that this man was schizophrenic, yet you still proceed to base your argument upon his racial philosophy. You don't think it's possible that his schizophrenia influenced his decision to join the radical movement, and he was hallucinating?
Also, I should ask again how you or anyone concluded that Kwanzaa and Chistmas (or any holidays) were mutually exclusive. Kwanzaa as far as I know is not a religion, so it isn't followed as a law with the founder worshipped. I have been to "Black" churches where both Christmas and Kwanzaa are celebrated.
By the way, do you think the Muslim holiday, Ramadan or Eid al-Fitr, is illegimate too, since only Muslims celebrate it (i.e, it hasn't obtained the secular status, unlike Christmas); and you know we have this circulating theory of how the founder told his followers to kill all infidels?
Originally posted by: luvly
"Even if the original African tribal traditions which Kwanzaa was losely based on were not race related, Krenga's incarnation of it in America is purely racial."
Yes, and when was Kwanzaa adopted by the majority/regular Blacks? Was it adopted in 1977? Were every words in the book of the author followed? It appears you have absolutely no experience with the rituals of the "Kwanzaa" that you're criticising. If you do, please tell me if the people who celebrate it have followed the law of the book you have referenced. I would love to see a complete match of both.
Why would any of this matter when the holiday was created with very little real substance solely as an effort to segregate blacks and whites?
You are also giving credence to the statement of the psychiatrist that this man was schizophrenic, yet you still proceed to base your argument upon his racial philosophy. You don't think it's possible that his schizophrenia influenced his decision to join the radical movement, and he was hallucinating?
If you would bother reading up on his history, you would understand why this is such a pointless comment.
Also, I should ask again how you or anyone concluded that Kwanzaa was mutually exclusive. Kwanzaa as far as I know is not a religion, so it isn't followed as a law with the founder worshipped. I have been to "Black" churches where both Christmas and Kwanzaa are celebrated.
Gee, I wonder how anyone could conclude such a thing
By the way, do you think the Muslim holiday, Ramadan, is illegimate too, since only Muslims celebrate it (i.e, it hasn't obtained the secular status, unlike Christmas); and you know we have this circulating theory of how the founder told his followers to kill all infidels?
There you go again... rehashing the same argument while ignoring whatever I may have said previously.
Maybe it's just hard for you to understand why I refuse to accept a segregationist holiday founded by a convicted felon, who was jailed for five years after torturing two black women by whipping them with electrical cords and beating them with a karate baton after stripping them naked... then placing a hot soldering iron in the mouth of one of the victims, also scarring her face with the device, then putting one of her big toes in a vise, and detergent and running water in both of their mouths. Oh, this was 5 years after he invented Kwanzaa... I'll be this was in the name of celebrating culture as well.
To stand here and say that the holiday represents something solely cultural, and that the founder's metal state shouldn't be questioned is absurd... the circumstances under which this holiday was created and the reasons for its creation are completely wrong.
Yes, I'm sure it doesn't matter when an idea is adopted. Adopting an idea in the 90s and by a majority is the same as doing so in the 70s at the time of racial tension.
"To stand here and say that the holiday represents something solely cultural, and that the founder's metal state shouldn't be questioned is absurd... the circumstances under which this holiday was created and the reasons for its creation are completely wrong."
No, you are the one saying his mental state shouldn't be questioned when you're giving credence to a psychiatrist's diagnosis of him, yet you are, in the same breath, arguing about his philosophy and stigmatising him as an intentional racist. So do we want to believe the psychiatrist's diagnosis or do we want to disregard the diagnosis? Schizophrenia is not the type of illness where the thoughts of the individual can be separated. The nature of the illness calls for the state of mind of the individual and confusion. If you want to argue the two in the same breath, then I hope you ask our system to drop the "not guilty" by reason of insanity plea, and take schizophrenics off the drug.
I'm afraid you're the one refusing to accept the fact that people have chosen to celebrate this holiday and believe it to be legitimate. You choose to believe that it is illegitimate does not make it so. Why can't you live and let live? Are you afraid it will be instituted and you'll be forced to accept it? If that happened, then you would see me defend your position. However, so far all you have done is evade questions posed that dare to challenge the rationality of your argument.
"To stand here and say that the holiday represents something solely cultural, and that the founder's metal state shouldn't be questioned is absurd... the circumstances under which this holiday was created and the reasons for its creation are completely wrong."
No, you are the one saying his mental state shouldn't be questioned when you're giving credence to a psychiatrist's diagnosis of him, yet you are, in the same breath, arguing about his philosophy and stigmatising him as an intentional racist. So do we want to believe the psychiatrist's diagnosis or do we want to disregard the diagnosis? Schizophrenia is not the type of illness where the thoughts of the individual can be separated. The nature of the illness calls for the state of mind of the individual and confusion. If you want to argue the two in the same breath, then I hope you ask our system to drop the "not guilty" by reason of insanity plea, and take schizophrenics off the drug.
I'm afraid you're the one refusing to accept the fact that people have chosen to celebrate this holiday and believe it to be legitimate. You choose to believe that it is illegitimate does not make it so. Why can't you live and let live? Are you afraid it will be instituted and you'll be forced to accept it? If that happened, then you would see me defend your position. However, so far all you have done is evade questions posed that dare to challenge the rationality of your argument.
He did it to spite White Christians. He's a black nationalist and a marxist, not to mention his torture of two women that landed him in jail. The sad thing is this nutcase became a professor at Cal State after his time in prison.
BTW, he went to jail for torturing two black women with 1) soldering irons in the mouth and on the face, 2) beating them with batons, 3) putting detergent in their mouths then forcing a water hose in their mouths, 4) tightening a vice on one lady's toe.
BTW, he went to jail for torturing two black women with 1) soldering irons in the mouth and on the face, 2) beating them with batons, 3) putting detergent in their mouths then forcing a water hose in their mouths, 4) tightening a vice on one lady's toe.
LOOK AT ANY MAP OF THE WORLD and you will see that Ghana and Kenya are on opposite sides of the continent. This brings up an obvious question about Kwanzaa: Why did Karenga use Swahili words for his fictional African feast? American blacks are primarily descended from people who came from Ghana and other parts of West Africa. Kenya and Tanzania?where Swahili is spoken?are several thousand miles away, about as far from Ghana as Los Angeles is from New York. Yet in celebrating Kwanzaa, African-Americans are supposed to employ a vocabulary of such Swahili words as "kujichagulia" and "kuumba." This makes about as much sense as having Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day by speaking Polish.
From: read about the loony Karenga here
You are in need of some good old fashion edification.
On December 24, 1971, the New York Times ran one of the first of many articles on a new holiday designed to foster unity among African Americans. The holiday, called Kwanzaa, was applauded by a certain sixteen-year-old minister who explained that the feast would perform the valuable service of "de-whitizing" Christmas. The minister was a nobody at the time but he would later go on to become perhaps the premier race-baiter of the twentieth century. His name was Al Sharpton and he would later spawn the Tawana Brawley hoax and then incite anti-Jewish tensions in a 1995 incident that ended with the arson deaths of seven people.
De-whitizing Christmas
the minister said that .. please.
you not know how the media writes? they write to sway to their liberal or conservative views.
when you come up with an original thought. post back.
you not know how the media writes? they write to sway to their liberal or conservative views.
when you come up with an original thought. post back.
Nice way to obfuscate the issue by bringing in the KKK, which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Christmas. Last I checked, the KKK neither created Christianity nor were they in existence when Christmas was first celebrated (ie., not the driving force behind it in any way).
If Kwanzaa is such a racially inclusive holiday, then why are there only blacks in all Kwanzaa cards?
MacBaine is right -- it's a bullshit holiday to create separatism. Hell, the Japanese celebrate Christmas, though they have no clue about the religious meaning. I guess it's not divisive over here. I think I want to create a big holiday in February, to break up the work calendar between New Years and Memorial Day. Maybe March would be better. Any ideas?
i think he does. i think the description helps to make his point that all holidays are, essentially, made up and hold significance only so far as those who celebrate deem. there is nothing there but what you make of it.
"LOOK AT ANY MAP OF THE WORLD and you will see that Ghana and Kenya are on opposite sides of the continent. This brings up an obvious question about Kwanzaa: Why did Karenga use Swahili words for his fictional African feast? American blacks are primarily descended from people who came from Ghana and other parts of West Africa. Kenya and Tanzania?where Swahili is spoken?are several thousand miles away, about as far from Ghana as Los Angeles is from New York. Yet in celebrating Kwanzaa, African-Americans are supposed to employ a vocabulary of such Swahili words as 'kujichagulia' and 'kuumba.' This makes about as much sense as having Irish-Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day by speaking Polish."
First off, an article of such magnitude that fails to give reference is not credible, as far as I'm concerned. If they write their particular references (i.e., name of author, date and page of article), so I could access and read it myself, then no problem.
Secondly, so what if they adopted Kenya's culture? Yes, majority came from West Africa, and only a few from the East. However, not all West African cultures are guaranteed to have similar rituals. Most importantly, Swahili is universal, in contrast to West African languages. You will hardly find any languages in West Africa that are universal for Africans or even the locals. Within Nigeria, out to Togo, Ghana, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Niger, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Benin, etc. The only universal languages they share are from colonialism: English and French. In contrast, Swahili extends to other regions, including South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Burundi, Rwanda, Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly known as Zaire), Congo, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia and the Central African Republic. It stretches from the east region to the central region and to the south. It could easily be seen as a language of unity, since more Africans speak it than other languages.
P.S. The distance between Kenya and West African nations is not anything like LA to NY. It's much closer, but that's irrelevant.
That analogy is one crazy analogy, by the way. Irish-Americans know what particular country of origin they are from, whereas the African-Americans do not know. They only know that majority of them are from the West and a few from the East. Irish-Americans don't have a possible mixture of Polish people, nor is Ireland a collection of countries (unlike West Africa).
First off, an article of such magnitude that fails to give reference is not credible, as far as I'm concerned. If they write their particular references (i.e., name of author, date and page of article), so I could access and read it myself, then no problem.
Secondly, so what if they adopted Kenya's culture? Yes, majority came from West Africa, and only a few from the East. However, not all West African cultures are guaranteed to have similar rituals. Most importantly, Swahili is universal, in contrast to West African languages. You will hardly find any languages in West Africa that are universal for Africans or even the locals. Within Nigeria, out to Togo, Ghana, Senegal, Mali, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Niger, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Benin, etc. The only universal languages they share are from colonialism: English and French. In contrast, Swahili extends to other regions, including South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Burundi, Rwanda, Democratic Republic of Congo (formerly known as Zaire), Congo, Madagascar, Malawi, Mozambique, Zambia and the Central African Republic. It stretches from the east region to the central region and to the south. It could easily be seen as a language of unity, since more Africans speak it than other languages.
P.S. The distance between Kenya and West African nations is not anything like LA to NY. It's much closer, but that's irrelevant.
That analogy is one crazy analogy, by the way. Irish-Americans know what particular country of origin they are from, whereas the African-Americans do not know. They only know that majority of them are from the West and a few from the East. Irish-Americans don't have a possible mixture of Polish people, nor is Ireland a collection of countries (unlike West Africa).
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
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The argument that Kwanzaa should not be a holiday because it's racist is flawed...who said it has to be racist?
I am not African nor black, I am a white male who was born Catholic. I will tell you this, more people have been outright killed and excluded due to not believing in Christmas than any other 'racist' type celebration.
Is Christmas for Buddists, Jewish, or any of the other non-christian followers? Yet they have to incorporate their holidays in to the time off given specifically for Christmas.
Some freaking retard gets a bug up his tail about how anything blacks do is because they want to exclude whites, and then he starts a mission. Christians have got to be the most biased, self-centered, and prejudiced group on the face of the planet.
What would be the main issue making Kwanzaa a 'real' holiday? What gives any other holiday more right just because it's been around a few hundred years? That kind of logic would have us driving a horse and buggy still.
Å
I am not African nor black, I am a white male who was born Catholic. I will tell you this, more people have been outright killed and excluded due to not believing in Christmas than any other 'racist' type celebration.
Is Christmas for Buddists, Jewish, or any of the other non-christian followers? Yet they have to incorporate their holidays in to the time off given specifically for Christmas.
Some freaking retard gets a bug up his tail about how anything blacks do is because they want to exclude whites, and then he starts a mission. Christians have got to be the most biased, self-centered, and prejudiced group on the face of the planet.
What would be the main issue making Kwanzaa a 'real' holiday? What gives any other holiday more right just because it's been around a few hundred years? That kind of logic would have us driving a horse and buggy still.
Å
I'm dreaming of a black kwanzaa just like the ones i hope to get to know. . .
where the tree tops glisten . . .
damn, where is nat king cole when you need him.
where the tree tops glisten . . .
damn, where is nat king cole when you need him.
I don't think that Kwanzaa should be a real holiday because of the fact that it is a racial holiday. Christmas and Hannukah are not racial, they are religious.
alkemyst
No Lifer
- Feb 13, 2001
- 83,769
- 19
- 81
hmmm I don't know what you are trying to accomplish....attacking me doesn't hurt my feelings at all...for all I know I am retarded.....however that would leave many much more mentally diminished than I.
So tell us what is your point and your stand on this, or are you too much a COWARD to let your true beliefs be known on issues since you want to fit in with the MASSES, and let me guess because you own a macintosh you believe you are a REBEL? Like you believe you are some sort of computer badass spewing his überness across the internet saying "look at me! look at me! look at my cool mac! we can change people's quotes together! look look look!"
Go back to your mac and continue to cry about your pathetic life and think about what other bandwagon you can jump on in an attempt to gain acceptance and perhaps one day be one of the 'cool' people you idolize.
Å
Macbaine, you have failed because you have not answered the essential question.
Who the hell cares!?
why do you
Who the hell cares!?
why do you
Yes, it is a holiday. Not a major holiday, mind you, but a holiday for those that wish to celebrate it, as in Arbor Day, Earth Day, St. Patrick's Day, etc.
For those that say that it is not a holiday, why not not? Why can't people celebrate 7 principles that are basically good? Again, you do not have to celebrate it, but those that want to can.
As for the quote that 90% of African Americans do not know about Africa, while I think that 90% is high, I think that Kwanzaa does also provide an opportunity for peole to explore history and heritage. Do they need a holiday to do that? No, but if it helps guide someone to learn more about themselves, so much the better.
The fact that it was created by a 60s radical does not mean that it was intended to separate blacks and whites. In fact, it wasn't. It was created to promote self-awareness in a group of people that were relegated to 1 day (at that time) of societal recognition.
Do I personally celebrate it? No, I and my family do not. That said, I can still appreciate the priciples that it incorporates.
Lastly, I offer this comment: our children get out of school to celebrate a guy that admittedly bumped into the US, found that there were people already here (AKA "The Savages"), and then told somehow was given credit for his "discovery." If we can celebrate that travesty, I'd say leave Kwanzaa alone!
For those that say that it is not a holiday, why not not? Why can't people celebrate 7 principles that are basically good? Again, you do not have to celebrate it, but those that want to can.
As for the quote that 90% of African Americans do not know about Africa, while I think that 90% is high, I think that Kwanzaa does also provide an opportunity for peole to explore history and heritage. Do they need a holiday to do that? No, but if it helps guide someone to learn more about themselves, so much the better.
The fact that it was created by a 60s radical does not mean that it was intended to separate blacks and whites. In fact, it wasn't. It was created to promote self-awareness in a group of people that were relegated to 1 day (at that time) of societal recognition.
Do I personally celebrate it? No, I and my family do not. That said, I can still appreciate the priciples that it incorporates.
Lastly, I offer this comment: our children get out of school to celebrate a guy that admittedly bumped into the US, found that there were people already here (AKA "The Savages"), and then told somehow was given credit for his "discovery." If we can celebrate that travesty, I'd say leave Kwanzaa alone!
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