Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
My point is there is nothing magical about Christmas. The Church created Christmas to replace a number of non-christian Roman holidays that occurred on or just after the winter solstice. In the US, for a lot of people Christmas is a secular holiday. IMO it is pleasant holiday and people can use some cheer during the darkest time of the year.
Christmas may be magical to you because you grew up with it.
Afro American segregationist thinking is based on the reality that even though most Afro-American families have been in the US for over 100 years they can never truly integrate into US society. They really look different from the majority. In the US the Greeks, Italians, and Irish have been pretty much integrated. For the most part you would not know or care that someone was Irish unless you heard their name or they told you.
The Afro American segregationist's model is based on how the Japanese, Chinese, and Jews function in the US. Afro-Americans need to develop their own social, cultural, and economic systems that benefit them instead of trying to belong to a society that rejects them. Most importantly grow the Afro-American economic base by doing commerce with their community as much as possible.
The thought behind
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
cept more or less all the buddist, agnostic, athiest chinese and japanese celebrate christmas. even in japan its celebrated, not in a christian sense, but in the secular sense. my relatives in hong kong send me gifts, and well, they aren't religious at all. but still, its not as if all of us feel its somehow a white holiday
much of that racial seperatism stuff was pretty insane. probably has some roots with the nation of islam which was also separatist and racial supremist to boot. religious claims that white people were the devil.... racist sh*t. one side of the black civil rights movement was dr king. peace, equality, and a christian. other side was violent(black panthers etc), division based, racial superiority of blacks(nation of islam etc), and rejection wholesale of everything.
Originally posted by: Sid59
Originally posted by: MacBaine
why should a school be MANDATED to teach history's of other countries and cultures??
my wife and i go out of our way to teach our kids korean history, language and culture and it never occurred to us that we should rely on the school system to do so.
the schools should focus on things that are important to most of the people and anything outside of that is the responsibility of the parents.
good luck finding any on ATOT.
there's maybe 3 blacks here, 1 of them being NFS4, who is more white than i am.
Saint Patty's Day yes. Columbus Day no, maybe Saint Anthony's day (the real Italian holiday). Why did they have to make Kwanza at Christmastime anyway? It's more of a "in your face whitey" thing than "celebrating African Heritage".
I don't, but considering it was started by the Black Nationalist Organization what else could it be? Wouldn't you think the same of a holiday started by the White Nationalist Organization?
I don't know anybody that celebrates Kwanzaa but if I did I would have no problem with them doing as they wish. I have no right to say it's a legitimate holiday any more than that of a Christian holiday. I choose not to celebrate but if they do more power to them. Who gives a sh!t if it doesn't affect anyone but them?
Also, although the holiday may have been founded under unusual circumstances and by an individual who was less than sane, the spirit of that holiday has gone beyond the bounds of what its creator had intended to simply represent an alternative to Christmas. By the same token the Christmas holiday could be seen as a corrupted shadow of its former self as it's now mostly a way for retailers to stuff merchandise down our throats instead of adhering to the Christian principles in which it was conceived.
Also, although the holiday may have been founded under unusual circumstances and by an individual who was less than sane, the spirit of that holiday has gone beyond the bounds of what its creator had intended to simply represent an alternative to Christmas. By the same token the Christmas holiday could be seen as a corrupted shadow of its former self as it's now mostly a way for retailers to stuff merchandise down our throats instead of adhering to the Christian principles in which it was conceived.
The BNO were not exactly benevolent.
http://www.gustavus.edu/news/weekly/03-04/09/commentary.cfm?a=paul
Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
Originally posted by: Sid59
Originally posted by: MacBaine
why should a school be MANDATED to teach history's of other countries and cultures??
my wife and i go out of our way to teach our kids korean history, language and culture and it never occurred to us that we should rely on the school system to do so.
the schools should focus on things that are important to most of the people and anything outside of that is the responsibility of the parents.
great. you didn't get the part i was replying too.
I have nothing against black people but IMO 90% of the black people in the United States know nothing about Africa or it's history.
that's what im reffering too.
yes, parents should take the responsibility to fill in what the schools miss. THIS IS PURELY IDEALISTIC. Just so you understand, i wasn't implying schools to teach the history of countries and cultures, it was an answer to his "90% of black people in the US know knothing aobut Africa"
Yes, by definition, it is a real holiday. I do agree with, oops, Jonmcc33 that most African-Americans hardly know anything about the continent of Africa and its people. When they try to dress like Africans, I laugh 'cuz their outfits are never like the real African outfits, and the outfits are so ugly.
Anyway, in spite of this fact, the point of Kwanzaa is to get people thinking for a moment. It mimics a certain African trible/people, who do something similar. You don't have to know much about the origin of the celebration in order to feel spiritually affected. You are building a relationship with your family first and foremost, so it isn't like it's just people wanting to party or make excuses. . . .
No Black person is obligated to subscribe to the holiday, just like no one, Black or White, should try sanctioning someone who chooses to dedicate that period to such activity. Why would people make an issue about something, unless it harmed the participants? In what way does Kwanzaa harm African-Americans? Have you witnessed them doing the usual rituals before drawing such conclusions? I think I have heard people claim that the founder was up to getting money from the members, but I really don't see how much money is gained, except for the candles and outfits. The founder certainly doesn't get the benefits, even if he once did.
If you call Kwanzaa not a real holiday, so is Christmas. First off, its origin was of paganism. As if that was not enough, the secular audience stole it. It appears that all traces of Christianity will soon be gone, and the holiday won't belong to pagans or Christians.
Edit: "my wife and i go out of our way to teach our kids korean history, language and culture and it never occurred to us that we should rely on the school system to do so."
Wait . . . now, Platinum Gold, you can proudly say Korean history. It appears you have so little to know. I should inform you that African-Americans aren't fortunate to know their specific origins . . . they would have to teach the history of the entire West African region and East Africa . . . and the tribes there and languages are abundant and rich in culture. Hence, all they could offer is a general lesson to their kids or adopt a false sense of heritage.
Anyway, in spite of this fact, the point of Kwanzaa is to get people thinking for a moment. It mimics a certain African trible/people, who do something similar. You don't have to know much about the origin of the celebration in order to feel spiritually affected. You are building a relationship with your family first and foremost, so it isn't like it's just people wanting to party or make excuses. . . .
No Black person is obligated to subscribe to the holiday, just like no one, Black or White, should try sanctioning someone who chooses to dedicate that period to such activity. Why would people make an issue about something, unless it harmed the participants? In what way does Kwanzaa harm African-Americans? Have you witnessed them doing the usual rituals before drawing such conclusions? I think I have heard people claim that the founder was up to getting money from the members, but I really don't see how much money is gained, except for the candles and outfits. The founder certainly doesn't get the benefits, even if he once did.
If you call Kwanzaa not a real holiday, so is Christmas. First off, its origin was of paganism. As if that was not enough, the secular audience stole it. It appears that all traces of Christianity will soon be gone, and the holiday won't belong to pagans or Christians.
Edit: "my wife and i go out of our way to teach our kids korean history, language and culture and it never occurred to us that we should rely on the school system to do so."
Wait . . . now, Platinum Gold, you can proudly say Korean history. It appears you have so little to know. I should inform you that African-Americans aren't fortunate to know their specific origins . . . they would have to teach the history of the entire West African region and East Africa . . . and the tribes there and languages are abundant and rich in culture. Hence, all they could offer is a general lesson to their kids or adopt a false sense of heritage.
"so one could argue that the meaning of Christmas is slowely being re-emphasized. The exchanging of presents is a century old tradition, which has naturally been assimilated by modern culture to boost retail sales. The loss of the 'Christmas spirit' has everything to do with your outlook on Christmas and how you choose to spend it."
MacBaine, do you realise how much you're grasping for straws? You keep saying, well, Christmas becoming secular makes it inclusive and puts it back to its heritage. Let's for a moment put aside the fact that the same leader, Constantine, who blended the the rituals of paganism with Christianity soon required people to convert to Christianity or leave. Do you know the difference between secularism and paganism? Paganism, in the context of old practices, is a belief system, but particularly attributed to mythologies, rituals and gods. In contrast, secularism leans toward indifference. Therefore, the secularisation of Christmas does not make it inclusive, nor does it take us back to the heritage of the holiday. Perhaps you fail to hear the Christians complaining about their holidays being stolen, and you fail to read articles about choirs being forbidden from singing any songs with the names "Jesus" and "Christ".
Furthermore, using your logic, creed should be removed from the list of forbidden forms of discrimination. Your argument throughout has been that Christmas is about religion, whereas Kwanzaa is about race. You say people have the option to convert to a specific religion, in order to escape ostracism--whereas you cannot change your race . . . so I wonder why the government has creed included in its list of forms of discrimination. Uhmm . . . as far as I know, religion has always been perceived as a sacred thing, which is why it's protected by the constitution. You can only say "Christmas is inclusive" because it's been yanked, but you will find the traditional Christians complaining.
By the way, can you show me where it says, "Other races not welcomed"? I have seen Whites in Kwanzaa events. Moreover, if you want to argue that Christmas was a diverse holiday during its inception and after, then why cannot you trace back the roots of Kwanzaa? So the Africans who did these rituals were racists? Uhmmm. . . . I suppose you also know that in order to spread Christmas universally, one had to use colonialism to convert people in other regions of the world to Christianity, or at least influence them significantly with the Christian beliefs? Thus, should Christmas be forbidden because colonialism was the means of spreading the news?
Oh, you also say the celebration is a combined tradition: Please show me how they are a mixed culture. So having Father Christmas (a.k.a, Santa Claus), giving gifts, having a particular tree for decoration, singing "Silent Night", TV networks all around the globe showing a movie of a Bible character is a diverse tradition? You don't think the pagan tradition was very different?
I should also point out that your analogy of such holiday being founded by a former Black radical activist is extremely weak. The KKK members were never an oppressed people, people of their skin tone lynched without repercussions, their properties burned, the constitution interpreted as separate but equal so that they would be subjected to the underprivileged class. You can argue that the means by which the radical activists went by to reach their ends of civil rights was unjustified, but it is ridiculous to compare them to people who intentionally suppressed a group based upon their skin tone.
MacBaine, do you realise how much you're grasping for straws? You keep saying, well, Christmas becoming secular makes it inclusive and puts it back to its heritage. Let's for a moment put aside the fact that the same leader, Constantine, who blended the the rituals of paganism with Christianity soon required people to convert to Christianity or leave. Do you know the difference between secularism and paganism? Paganism, in the context of old practices, is a belief system, but particularly attributed to mythologies, rituals and gods. In contrast, secularism leans toward indifference. Therefore, the secularisation of Christmas does not make it inclusive, nor does it take us back to the heritage of the holiday. Perhaps you fail to hear the Christians complaining about their holidays being stolen, and you fail to read articles about choirs being forbidden from singing any songs with the names "Jesus" and "Christ".
Furthermore, using your logic, creed should be removed from the list of forbidden forms of discrimination. Your argument throughout has been that Christmas is about religion, whereas Kwanzaa is about race. You say people have the option to convert to a specific religion, in order to escape ostracism--whereas you cannot change your race . . . so I wonder why the government has creed included in its list of forms of discrimination. Uhmm . . . as far as I know, religion has always been perceived as a sacred thing, which is why it's protected by the constitution. You can only say "Christmas is inclusive" because it's been yanked, but you will find the traditional Christians complaining.
By the way, can you show me where it says, "Other races not welcomed"? I have seen Whites in Kwanzaa events. Moreover, if you want to argue that Christmas was a diverse holiday during its inception and after, then why cannot you trace back the roots of Kwanzaa? So the Africans who did these rituals were racists? Uhmmm. . . .
I suppose you also know that in order to spread Christmas universally, one had to use colonialism to convert people in other regions of the world to Christianity, or at least influence them significantly with the Christian beliefs? Thus, should Christmas be forbidden because colonialism was the means of spreading the news?Oh, you also say the celebration is a combined tradition: Please show me how they are a mixed culture. So having Father Christmas (a.k.a, Santa Claus), giving gifts, having a particular tree for decoration, singing "Silent Night", TV networks all around the globe showing a movie of a Bible character is a diverse tradition? You don't think the pagan tradition was very different?
I should also point out that your analogy of such holiday being founded by a former Black radical activist is extremely weak. The KKK members were never an oppressed people, people of their skin tone lynched without repercussions, their properties burned, the constitution interpreted as separate but equal so that they would be subjected to the underprivileged class. You can argue that the means by which the radical activists went by to reach their ends of civil rights was unjustified, but it is ridiculous to compare them to people who intentionally suppressed a group based upon their skin tone.
FelixDeCat
Lifer
- Aug 4, 2000
- 30,976
- 2,677
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