POLL: Is Kwanzaa a real holiday?

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
fact is, even if its real, that alone doesn't make it worth celebrating.

being oppressed doesn't justify racism.

Is it racism though? White Supremists celebrate Christmas, does that make Christmas Racist?

 

[0roo0roo]

its not guilt by association, but by foundation, context of its times.

 

"fact is, even if its real, that alone doesn't make it worth celebrating."

So again, I ask, who forces you to celebrate it? I haven't seen the White House celebrate it. I haven't seen a mandatory celebration. I have only seen people accommodate children whose families celebrate it.

P.S.: Who says oppression justifies racism? I was just saying that MacBain was begging the question by giving an ambiguous and implied definition--or lackthereof, so he could comfortably lump the cause of radical Black activists and the KKK.

"its not guilt by association, but by foundation, context of its times."

Oh, once again, should Christmas be banned for guilt by foundation since Constantine forced people to convert to Christianity or leave? Should it be banned because it was spread by means of colonialism?

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: luvly
"so one could argue that the meaning of Christmas is slowely being re-emphasized. The exchanging of presents is a century old tradition, which has naturally been assimilated by modern culture to boost retail sales. The loss of the 'Christmas spirit' has everything to do with your outlook on Christmas and how you choose to spend it."

MacBaine, do you realise how much you're grasping for straws? You keep saying, well, Christmas becoming secular makes it inclusive and puts it back to its heritage. Let's for a moment put aside the fact that the same leader, Constantine, who blended the the rituals of paganism with Christianity soon required people to convert to Christianity or leave. Do you know the difference between secularism and paganism? Paganism, in the context of old practices, is a belief system, but particularly attributed to mythologies, rituals and gods. In contrast, secularism leans toward indifference. Therefore, the secularisation of Christmas does not make it inclusive, nor does it take us back to the heritage of the holiday. Perhaps you fail to hear the Christians complaining about their holidays being stolen, and you fail to read articles about choirs being forbidden from singing any songs with the names "Jesus" and "Christ".

You are taking my argument out of context. My point was that Christmas was originally a celebration of the season. After it was Christianized, the cutoms and traditions of the two were blended, and its emphasis was put on religious celebration. Now that people are beginning to put less emphasis on the religious aspect of it, it is becoming more again a celebration of the season which people of all races/religions could celebrate should they choose. I would venture a bet that a good majority of people do not put much religious significance on Christmas, but rather take it as a time to be with loved ones and others in a non religious manner

Furthermore, using your logic, creed should be removed from the list of forbidden forms of discrimination. Your argument throughout has been that Christmas is about religion, whereas Kwanzaa is about race.

Again, you are wrong. My argument has been that Christmas was founded on centuries of tradition, being the culmination of many religious and cultural practices and customs, whereas Kwanzaa was found by one man with an agenda against white culture. The motives for the holiday are clearly to make it a means to seperate whites from blacks.

You say people have the option to convert to a specific religion, in order to escape ostracism--whereas you cannot change your race . . . so I wonder why the government has creed included in its list of forms of discrimination. Uhmm . . . as far as I know, religion has always been perceived as a sacred thing, which is why it's protected by the constitution. You can only say "Christmas is inclusive" because it's been yanked, but you will find the traditional Christians complaining.

Again, you are construing my arguement in a way not applicable to this argument. My point on religious holidays is that they can be exclusive of one religion, that's fine. I am not saying that Jews can't celebrate Chanuka, etc. Religious exclusiveness is far different from racial exclusiveness. Chanuka was not founded for the purpose of seperating Jews from Christians. It's a religous celebration of their cultural history. Kwanzaa was formed with the motive of seperating two races. Call me ignorant, but I for one refuse to accept this type of politically correct seperation.


By the way, can you show me where it says, "Other races not welcomed"? I have seen Whites in Kwanzaa events. Moreover, if you want to argue that Christmas was a diverse holiday during its inception and after, then why cannot you trace back the roots of Kwanzaa? So the Africans who did these rituals were racists? Uhmmm. . . . I suppose you also know that in order to spread Christmas universally, one had to use colonialism to convert people in other regions of the world to Christianity, or at least influence them significantly with the Christian beliefs? Thus, should Christmas be forbidden because colonialism was the means of spreading the news?

If you had bothered to read anything I posted, the nature of Kwanzaa makes it quite clear that it is exclusively black. You can read the "Kwanzaa Message" from the founder himself on the webpage, which states that it is an African American holiday. Sure, there isnt a law that says a white person can't celebrate it, but that is certainly not the intention of the 'holiday'.

Oh, you also say the celebration is a combined tradition: Please show me how they are a mixed culture. So having Father Christmas (a.k.a, Santa Claus), giving gifts, having a particular tree for decoration, singing "Silent Night", TV networks all around the globe showing a movie of a Bible character is a diverse tradition? You don't think the pagan tradition was very different?


The Christians did not invent everything Christmas. Neither did the pagans. The traditions and customs we practice today are all from various sources, which have been added/adapted to the holiday over the centuries.

In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the winter solstice, through January.

Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the unconquerable sun, on December 25.

Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.

By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was celebrated.

Christmas became the time of year when the upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by entertaining less fortunate citizens.

It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas. Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia.

In Irving's mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status.

As Americans began to embrace Christmas as a perfect family holiday, old customs were unearthed. People looked toward recent immigrants and Catholic and Episcopalian churches to see how the day should be celebrated. In the next 100 years, Americans built a Christmas tradition all their own that included pieces of many other customs, including decorating trees, sending holiday cards, and gift-giving. Although most families quickly bought into the idea that they were celebrating Christmas how it had been done for centuries, Americans had really re-invented a holiday to fill the cultural needs of a growing nation.

From: The History Channel


I should also point out that your analogy of such holiday being founded by a former Black radical activist is extremely weak. The KKK members were never an oppressed people, people of their skin tone lynched without repercussions, their properties burned, the constitution interpreted as separate but equal so that they would be subjected to the underprivileged class. You can argue that the means by which the radical activists went by to reach their ends of civil rights was unjustified, but it is ridiculous to compare them to people who intentionally suppressed a group based upon their skin tone.

I really wish you read my posts, where I stated that I was not comparing the two groups to each other, nor was I trying to imply that the Black Radicals went about the same means to accomplish their agenda, but that the underlying theme of racial seperation is present in both.

 

[0roo0roo]

you don't need fallacy to comfortably lump the black racist activists with the kkk. its idea of the cause, not the numbers that matters.

and becoming like your worst nightmare as a means to an end? become your enemy....and deserve no more respect then they do.

black seperatism/supremist racism wasn't a means to an end, just as white racism wasn't a means to an end, it was a foundation. and just because they didn't get the chance to oppress, doesn't make them any better then those who did. they certainly would have if given the chance.


they were not without choice, some chose unity, and some chose a racist kind of black power ideology. thats how it goes.. seperatism for separatisms sake.

either way, its a wholly unacceptable corruption at the foundation of this "celebration".

its not about forcing anyone to celebrate it. we're simply judging it. and it isn't worthy of respect.

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you don't need fallacy to comfortably lump the black racist activists with the kkk. its idea of the cause, not the numbers that matters.

its not about forcing anyone to celebrate it. we're simply judging it. and it isn't worthy of respect.

Exactly. Everybody is so quick to say that it can be a holiday because it is cultural, thus we must be accepting of it. I am tolerant of people celebrating it, I am not saying you can't. I am not accepting of its foundation for existing. Tolerance and Acceptance are two completely different things.

 

[Spamela]

if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

 

[PowerMac4Ever]

Wow, I guess my thread wasn't enough for luvly. She just loves getting OWNED.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

if that were the intent, then clearly it's failed & you should be happier.
some people seem to be bothered a little excessively by it

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

if that were the intent, then clearly it's failed & you should be happier.
some people seem to be bothered a little excessively by it

would you be bothered ecessively at white seperatist celebrations? esp one that even though marginalized, people still tried to defend?

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

if that were the intent, then clearly it's failed & you should be happier.
some people seem to be bothered a little excessively by it

I'm not supposed to be bothered by something that I disagree with completely, yet is so blindly accepted by the forced politically correct American culture?

 

"The Christians did not invent everything Christmas. Neither did the pagans. The traditions and customs we practice today are all from various sources, which have been added/adapted to the holiday over the centuries."

All right, I'll ask again, tell me the diverse traditions. Tell me how much of this diversity has influence from third world customs and how many from other religions besides paganism and Christianity.

Again, I ask, MacBaine: Why are you willing to trace back Christmas but refuse to do so about Kwanzaa? Why do you keep on arguing that Kwanzaa is racist but you won't say Christmas is discriminatory? Again, is it irrelevant that Constantine was considered a mass-murderer and forced Christianity upon people, soon after he instituted things such as Christmas? Is it irrelevant that Christianity was spread by means of colonialism? If such past is irrelevant, then why is the past of the founder of Kwanzaa relevant? Throughout, I have not seen you show a specific part of the ritual that proves detrimental to the celebrators or the "excluded".

One more thing, wouldn't it be semantics you're playing here? If you want to argue that different people and of all religions have adapted to Christmas and contributed to it, then what stops you from calling Kwanzaa a Christmas tradition of a certain group of African Americans?

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: luvly
"The Christians did not invent everything Christmas. Neither did the pagans. The traditions and customs we practice today are all from various sources, which have been added/adapted to the holiday over the centuries."

All right, I'll ask again, tell me the diverse traditions. Tell me how much of this diversity has influence from third world customs and how many from other religions besides paganism and Christianity.

I posted some examples in my previous thread to you. Maybe you should have read it.

Again, I ask, MacBaine: Why are you willing to trace back Christmas but refuse to do so about Kwanzaa?

I am tracing it back, to when it was founded 40 years ago. See below.

Why do you keep on arguing that Kwanzaa is racist but you won't say Christmas is discriminatory? Again, is it irrelevant that Constantine was considered a mass-murderer and forced Christianity upon people, soon after he instituted things such as Christmas? Is it irrelevant that Christianity was spread by means of colonialism? If such past is irrelevant, then why is the past of the founder of Kwanzaa relevant? Throughout, I have not seen you show a specific part of the ritual that proves detrimental to the celebrators or the "excluded".

You can keep using this argument all you want, but the fact is that it's been disputed and covered several times in the posts above. I won't bether replying to it now because you seem to just keep rewording the same argument, unable to understand what I am talking about.

One more thing, wouldn't it be semantics you're playing here? If you want to argue that different people and of all religions have adapted to Christmas and contributed to it, then what stops you from calling Kwanzaa a Christmas tradition of a certain group of African Americans?

Are you really that desperate to use this as an argument? Kwanzaa was introduced to be a black alternative to Christmas, as stated by the creator himself. Kwanzaa is meant as a seperate holiday, not as a cultural adaptation to Christmas.

 

"I posted some examples in my previous thread to you. Maybe you should have read it."

I read it, but I notice the traditions are hardly as diverse as you claim. I don't see the Asian, African, Pacific Islander, or Native American influence. Everything reads the influence of a certain race! So does that make Christmas racist too?

"'Again, I ask, MacBaine: Why are you willing to trace back Christmas but refuse to do so about Kwanzaa?'

I am tracing it back, to when it was founded 40 years ago. See below."

No, Kwanzaa goes further than 40 years ago. It's an African tribal tradition that has nothing to do with race. You didn't stop your trace of Christmas at Constantine's decree, so why stop Kwanzaa at the African-American founder's institution of the tradition?

Edit: By the way, who says the two Kwanzaa and Christmas are mutually exclusive? I have been to "Black" churches where people celebrate both Christmas and Kwanzaa.

 

[Tom]

what about St Patrick's day ? Is it real ?

 

[Shawn]

no

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: luvly
"I posted some examples in my previous thread to you. Maybe you should have read it."

I read it, but I notice the traditions are hardly as diverse as you claim. I don't see the Asian, African, Pacific Islander, or Native American influence. Everything reads the influence of a certain race! So does that make Christmas racist too?

"'Again, I ask, MacBaine: Why are you willing to trace back Christmas but refuse to do so about Kwanzaa?'

I am tracing it back, to when it was founded 40 years ago. See below."

No, Kwanzaa goes further than 40 years ago. It's an African tribal tradition that has nothing to do with race. You didn't stop your trace of Christmas at Constantine's decree, so why stop Kwanzaa at the African-American founder's institution of the tradition?

Even if the original African tribal traditions which Kwanzaa was losely based on were not race related, Krenga's incarnation of it in America is purely racial.

"...I did not mean to suggest in any way that Kwanzaa was a continental African holiday rather than Afro-American one. On the contrary. I have always stressed that although Kwanzaa has some historical roots in Africa, it is essentially a product of the particular social conditions and self-determined needs of the Afro-American people."
-p 12 Kwanzaa: origin, concepts, practice. Dec. 1977

"...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society."
-p. 21 Kwanzaa: origin, concepts, practice. Dec. 1977

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
what about St Patrick's day ? Is it real ?

Was it founded on the grounds of racial inequality?

 

[slackerinabox]

Hell,
Do you have any idea how many B.S. holidays are out there? ST. Patrick's day (come on, why should we care that some dude got rid of some snakes in ireland), all those " x days" (mother's, father's, secretaries, take your daughter to worrk, etc. etc. etc.), groundhog day.... .. There are so many b.s. holidays so why should we get all anal about Kwanzaa? MANY races have their days - let black people celebrate their idiotic holiday as well (I consider xmas a waste of time as well)... why should you care? i doubt that you have any black friends that you have to buy gifts for... it's all just bullsh1t ways to boost the economy - let people buy their cards and little trinkets..

 

[PatboyX]

as real as the rest of these holidays.

 

[Spamela]

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

if that were the intent, then clearly it's failed & you should be happier.
some people seem to be bothered a little excessively by it

I'm not supposed to be bothered by something that I disagree with completely, yet is so blindly accepted by the forced politically correct American culture?

if it were based on hate/intolerance, then it wouldn't have the millions
of celebrants it has now, but i guess only a select few have the
insight to see how it's really "seperating" blacks from whites.

it's good to see that you feel that things that "seperate" blacks from
whites are bad - i assume you must feel that it's bad that blacks were fscked
over for so long - if they hadn't been, then Ron Karenga would've never
created Kwanzaa & it would've never taken off.

 

[OIKOS]

HELLLLL NO!! lol... i think anything other than x'mas = BANNN!! :|

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela

Originally posted by: MacBaine

Originally posted by: Spamela
if enough people accept & celebrate Kwanzaa, then it's "real."

i don't care whether anybody celebrates it or not, & the fact that
the originator was a black militant is irrelevant.

i don't see how people could get too upset about the
Kwanzaa 7 principles- it's like wanting "world peace."

I don't see how people can't get upset that it was founded with the intention of further seperating blacks from whites.

if that were the intent, then clearly it's failed & you should be happier.
some people seem to be bothered a little excessively by it

I'm not supposed to be bothered by something that I disagree with completely, yet is so blindly accepted by the forced politically correct American culture?

if it were based on hate/intolerance, then it wouldn't have the millions
of celebrants it has now, but i guess only a select few have the
insight to see how it's really "seperating" blacks from whites.

it's good to see that you feel that things that "seperate" blacks from
whites are bad - i assume you must feel that it's bad that blacks were fscked
over for so long - if they hadn't been, then Ron Karenga would've never
created Kwanzaa & it would've never taken off.

So now you are going back to painting me as a racist. Way to take my argument way out of context... looks like you win this one!

 

[MacBaine]

Originally posted by: freedomsbeat212
Hell,
Do you have any idea how many B.S. holidays are out there? ST. Patrick's day (come on, why should we care that some dude got rid of some snakes in ireland)

Since you obviously have no idea what St. Patrick's day is about, we can count you out of this argument.