POLL: AA and diversity

[ExpertNovice]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
no the standards (as far as physical, and educational) should not be changed, but we should just educate minorities better.

BTW whites are no longer a majority here in TX. Those dumb white people should just read more so they can pass the test. (this is a joke )

Why not eductate everyone better, regardless of race? I understand this would defeat the current liberal movement for the same reason that slaves have always been denied an education. An educated person wants personal freedom not forced dependency.

 

[zebano]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I thought this was an Article on Alcoholics Anonymous!

What do you mean by the term AA, and what does it have to do with Fire Fighters?

Do they allow small Male Fire Fighters?

AA = Affirmative Action

for the other 2 questions, read the article.

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: ExpertNovice

Originally posted by: judasmachine
no the standards (as far as physical, and educational) should not be changed, but we should just educate minorities better.

BTW whites are no longer a majority here in TX. Those dumb white people should just read more so they can pass the test. (this is a joke )

Why not eductate everyone better, regardless of race? I understand this would defeat the current liberal movement for the same reason that slaves have always been denied an education. An educated person wants personal freedom not forced dependency.

that's what i meant. everyone (regardless of social status, race, religion, national origin, etc.) should be educated on a fairly equal basis. i would only support something like AA on the basis that it kick start true equality, but apparently it just breeds contempt from the ruling class.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: beyoku
bhaa, whatever. Jesus is white!? Racism is the underlying theme in the US when it comes to every form of human relation? Even in faith, example: Jesus is white. If white people think they dont have the upperhand in the US then they just simply dont want to believe.

I dare you to find just one culture in the entire history of the world where their deity/prophet/messiah is/was not the same race/color/whatever as the culture. Just one.
In fact, it's not terribly uncommon to see a black Jesus in a black church.

the aztecs - http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/spanish_conquest.html

Also, the Aztecs believed that the god Quetzalcoatl was going to return and destroy the Aztec empire. Quetzalcoatl was seen as a man with light hair, and light colored skin, and it was thought by the Aztec, that Cortez was the returning Quetzalcoatl.

That the Aztecs may have worshipped a white god prior to the arrival of Europeans is much debated. It's probably the only case you'll find btw.

My entire point was that beyoku's statement that the US is racist simply because Jesus is white is ignorant in the extreme. Jesus is white because the Europeans who invented Him were white. Are Asians racist because Buddha is a Asian?

Originally posted by: judasmachine
that's what i meant. everyone (regardless of social status, race, religion, national origin, etc.) should be educated on a fairly equal basis. i would only support something like AA on the basis that it kick start true equality, but apparently it just breeds contempt from the ruling class.

There is no ruling class in America. I invite you to prove that there is. Nor is education a prerequisite nor a guarantee of success in our society. The wealthiest man in the world did not complete his college education prior to making his first billion.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: beyoku
bhaa, whatever. Jesus is white!? Racism is the underlying theme in the US when it comes to every form of human relation? Even in faith, example: Jesus is white. If white people think they dont have the upperhand in the US then they just simply dont want to believe.

I dare you to find just one culture in the entire history of the world where their deity/prophet/messiah is/was not the same race/color/whatever as the culture. Just one.
In fact, it's not terribly uncommon to see a black Jesus in a black church.

the aztecs - http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/latinamerica/topics/spanish_conquest.html

Also, the Aztecs believed that the god Quetzalcoatl was going to return and destroy the Aztec empire. Quetzalcoatl was seen as a man with light hair, and light colored skin, and it was thought by the Aztec, that Cortez was the returning Quetzalcoatl.

That the Aztecs may have worshipped a white god prior to the arrival of Europeans is much debated. It's probably the only case you'll find btw.

My entire point was that beyoku's statement that the US is racist simply because Jesus is white is ignorant in the extreme. Jesus is white because the Europeans who invented Him were white. Are Asians racist because Buddha is a Asian?

Originally posted by: judasmachine
that's what i meant. everyone (regardless of social status, race, religion, national origin, etc.) should be educated on a fairly equal basis. i would only support something like AA on the basis that it kick start true equality, but apparently it just breeds contempt from the ruling class.

There is no ruling class in America. I invite you to prove that there is. Nor is education a prerequisite nor a guarantee of success in our society. The wealthiest man in the world did not complete his college education prior to making his first billion.

you said name one instance - i simply went for the one i learned about in 8th grade social studies - i could do more research but it's simply not worth the effort since you said to name one. i'm not arguing either way in your argument other than providing the example you requested.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Zebo

While racism and feelings of exclusion do exist all over the world and in many different professions, I vastly prefer sticking to the merit-only rating system, thanks very much

Good luck with that. Merit is a fantasy. Little, unquantifiable or subjective things like personaity, looks, vibes play a far more important role than grades or test scores. We're not machines but humans with all the faults that go with that. Not to mention even grades and experiance are subjective. Is a 4.0 from Boise State worth more than a 3.0 from Yale? I don't think so but some may. And this, is as bad as it, only get worse when you introduce friends, friend or son of friend, race relations, sex and a whole host of other human issues into the hiring equation.

Merit is a fantasy? Since when do subjective things like personality and vibes have nothing to do with merit? In interviews, on paper and in every business relationship you form, you must strive for a certain 'look' that's both professional and personable. You accomplish work to present yourself in the best possible light. That work you do on your image is a part of the merit-only system.

While a business may exist and even prosper for years or decades, those that don't emcumber themselves with arbitrary rules based on race are, on the average, going to pull ahead. They simply have a wider (thus, better) pool of candidates to cherry pick. Could Adobe have reached the pinnacle of photo editing software without employing minorities as part of its programming teams? Maybe, but it'd likely have been tougher when you purposely overlook a person of colour to find out who's not but is just as capable. Skilled professionals are just too rare for that bullsh!t and an ever greater number of employers know it.

 

[chrisms]

I hate affirmative action. How can anyone support that crap

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: yllus
While a business may exist and even prosper for years or decades, those that don't emcumber themselves with arbitrary rules based on race are, on the average, going to pull ahead. They simply have a wider (thus, better) pool of candidates to cherry pick. Could Adobe have reached the pinnacle of photo editing software without employing minorities as part of its programming teams? Maybe, but it'd likely have been tougher when you purposely overlook a person of colour to find out who's not but is just as capable. Skilled professionals are just too rare for that bullsh!t and an ever greater number of employers know it.

At least some people get it.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: yllus
While a business may exist and even prosper for years or decades, those that don't emcumber themselves with arbitrary rules based on race are, on the average, going to pull ahead. They simply have a wider (thus, better) pool of candidates to cherry pick. Could Adobe have reached the pinnacle of photo editing software without employing minorities as part of its programming teams? Maybe, but it'd likely have been tougher when you purposely overlook a person of colour to find out who's not but is just as capable. Skilled professionals are just too rare for that bullsh!t and an ever greater number of employers know it.

At least some people get it.

i don't think there is a shortage of white males for these sort of technical jobs. it would be an interesting experiment though.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: yllus
While a business may exist and even prosper for years or decades, those that don't emcumber themselves with arbitrary rules based on race are, on the average, going to pull ahead. They simply have a wider (thus, better) pool of candidates to cherry pick. Could Adobe have reached the pinnacle of photo editing software without employing minorities as part of its programming teams? Maybe, but it'd likely have been tougher when you purposely overlook a person of colour to find out who's not but is just as capable. Skilled professionals are just too rare for that bullsh!t and an ever greater number of employers know it.

At least some people get it.

i don't think there is a shortage of white males for these sort of technical jobs. it would be an interesting experiment though.

It's not about warm bodies. It's about hiring the absolute best, most talented, and most productive people to do the job, regardless of skin color or ethnicity (or gender or sexual orientation or religious beliefs [or lack of] or any other such criteria irrelevant to getting the job done). Doing anything else is quite simply bad for business.

 

[cquark]

AA is a bad idea, but the questions are ridiculously biased.

If you want to have a serious discussion, try answering this question: if you think AA doesn't work, how would you address racism in American society?

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: yllus
While a business may exist and even prosper for years or decades, those that don't emcumber themselves with arbitrary rules based on race are, on the average, going to pull ahead. They simply have a wider (thus, better) pool of candidates to cherry pick. Could Adobe have reached the pinnacle of photo editing software without employing minorities as part of its programming teams? Maybe, but it'd likely have been tougher when you purposely overlook a person of colour to find out who's not but is just as capable. Skilled professionals are just too rare for that bullsh!t and an ever greater number of employers know it.

At least some people get it.

i don't think there is a shortage of white males for these sort of technical jobs. it would be an interesting experiment though.

It's not about warm bodies. It's about hiring the absolute best, most talented, and most productive people to do the job, regardless of skin color or ethnicity (or gender or sexual orientation or religious beliefs [or lack of] or any other such criteria irrelevant to getting the job done). Doing anything else is quite simply bad for business.

i'm just saying the vast number of applicants (and most of them being white) means that purposefully hiring all whites will have negligiable effect on an individual business. in other fields this may not be the case.

 

[chrisms]

Originally posted by: cquark
AA is a bad idea, but the questions are ridiculously biased.

If you want to have a serious discussion, try answering this question: if you think AA doesn't work, how would you address racism in American society?

I don't know. But affirmative action only adds to racism in my experience.. I will be honest and say that I have less respect for the intelligence of the black people at the University I didn't get accepted to (I live right next to campus in a frat). Not because I think black people are inferior (I don't); I assume they got into the school only because of their race. Of course I have no idea if they were helped by AA or not, and if they weren't it seems they are being treated unfairly by people like me. If they were then they don't deserve to go there... since I was a borderline admissions decision I can't help but think that some middle class black kid with worse grades was chosen over me.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: chrisms

Originally posted by: cquark
AA is a bad idea, but the questions are ridiculously biased.

If you want to have a serious discussion, try answering this question: if you think AA doesn't work, how would you address racism in American society?

I don't know. But affirmative action only adds to racism in my experience.. I will be honest and say that I have less respect for the intelligence of the black people at the University I didn't get accepted to (I live right next to campus in a frat). Not because I think black people are inferior (I don't); I assume they got into the school only because of their race. Of course I have no idea if they were helped by AA or not, and if they weren't it seems they are being treated unfairly by people like me. If they were then they don't deserve to go there... since I was a borderline admissions decision I can't help but think that some middle class black kid with worse grades was chosen over me.

not that it happened to me - but i can understand your pain.

 

[piasabird]

Guess what? The instructors in colleges and in universities are more like lecturers. They expect you to study and actually learn the material before they go over it in class. He is doing them a favor, because the take-home test is telling the students what the important material is so the student knows what to expect when the test is given. Nothing wrong with study questions to complete. Every instructor will conduct class in a different manner. Figuring out what to expect is part of going to School. You can not expect all professors to be white boys from ivy league schools. One of my best math teachers spoke with a very difficult accent and was from Iran. However, he was very smart and knew exactly how to teach the class.

One very important aspect of going to a university or a college is to be exposed to people who do not act, think, and come from the same place you do. It exposes you to knew ways of thinking and broadens your range of intellect on a wide range of subjects. College can be fun if you get to know the people who are different from you and learn about their culture. I would urge you to be a little open minded. You dont have to blindly accept everything someone says, but by learning people's differences, you can learn to appreciate what they have to contribute to society.

 

[cquark]

Originally posted by: Stas
AA - African-American
This diversity is BS. Voted NO on every question. I am tired of people not doing anything but complaining about how it's because they're black/mexican/chinese. Apply some effort, damn it, this is not welfare, you have to LEARN AND WORK.

While you do have to learn and work,it really does help to be white. We have to acknowledge the fact of racism. A couple of years ago, a UChicago/MIT collaboration sent out 5000 resumes.for various jobs. Common white and black names were randomly assigned to identical resumes. Resumes with common white sounding names were responded to with a 50% greater frequency.

You can read details in the HR Magazine report at http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3495/is_2_48/ai_97873146

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: chrisms

Originally posted by: cquark
AA is a bad idea, but the questions are ridiculously biased.

If you want to have a serious discussion, try answering this question: if you think AA doesn't work, how would you address racism in American society?

I don't know. But affirmative action only adds to racism in my experience.. I will be honest and say that I have less respect for the intelligence of the black people at the University I didn't get accepted to (I live right next to campus in a frat). Not because I think black people are inferior (I don't); I assume they got into the school only because of their race. Of course I have no idea if they were helped by AA or not, and if they weren't it seems they are being treated unfairly by people like me. If they were then they don't deserve to go there... since I was a borderline admissions decision I can't help but think that some middle class black kid with worse grades was chosen over me.

Well i would hate for you, or people like you to be in the position to hire potential staff. It is ideas like this that give jobs to white felons vs black people with clean records and equal skills. You can base your feeling of "less respect for the intelligence of the black people" off of one event such as a University that you didnt get accepted to. But you cannot recognize the culture of institutionalized racism for the past 100's of years in the US that created this problem in the first place......

 

[RichPLS]

So as a result we will have to endure the next hundred years of reverse racism.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: cquark

Originally posted by: Stas
AA - African-American
This diversity is BS. Voted NO on every question. I am tired of people not doing anything but complaining about how it's because they're black/mexican/chinese. Apply some effort, damn it, this is not welfare, you have to LEARN AND WORK.

While you do have to learn and work,it really does help to be white. We have to acknowledge the fact of racism. A couple of years ago, a UChicago/MIT collaboration sent out 5000 resumes.for various jobs. Common white and black names were randomly assigned to identical resumes. Resumes with common white sounding names were responded to with a 50% greater frequency.

You can read details in the HR Magazine report at http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3495/is_2_48/ai_97873146

Screw the results, lets just figure out a way to bash this study.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: RichPLS
So as a result we will have to endure the next hundred years of reverse racism.

That is the plan. Remember that basic liberal math is wrong + wrong = right


edit: and oh, the sign says, "This land is private property."