POLL: AA and diversity

[DanceMan]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic
PC'ers don't like being forced to admit that AA (and similar forced diversity programs) are inherently racist because they (these programs) begin with the assumption that minorities are incapable of acheiving on their own merit.

That's incorrect -- you really don't know the true definition of AA. You are more describing quotas. Yes, there is a difference.

DanceMan

Well I am no more informed by incorrect than I was by the bald assertion of what the assumption behind AA was. I disagree with Vic too in this way. I believe that the assumption I would call a fact behind AA is that many minorities, far from not being able to achieve on their own merits, have actually suffered massively more damage to their belief in their merit than most other people. This is because minorities and especially blacks have been subjected to intense bigoted hate for centuries and have had their families and cultural values ripped apart, on average. AA is an attempt to redress the destruction that was done. The problem, of course, is that self esteem problems are hard to fix because nobody will admit to having them. And nothing pisses off those who feel worthless more than the thought that some other worthless-feeling person is getting help. "I feel worthless, God Damn it, I will never admit to myself, and I made it all on my own; why can't that other worthless son of a bitch do the same."

We all feel absolutely worthless deeply hidden within, but the absolute magnitude of the damage we suffered runs up and down a scale.

Oh BS. There are more poor "white trash" (most of whom have been that way for generations) in the US than there are black people. When do they get their redress?

Point being, you can't fix a person's self-esteem problem by giving them a free ride. "Here, we all know you don't deserve it *wink*wink*" Yeah, that works...

The problem is that people think that discrimination has only economic consequences. It has socio-economic consequences, and that is what is addressed by AA.

By the way, AA is not race (or any other category) specific. As a matter of fact, white people benefit from AA more than any other protected catagory.

DanceMan

 

[Satchel]

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic
PC'ers don't like being forced to admit that AA (and similar forced diversity programs) are inherently racist because they (these programs) begin with the assumption that minorities are incapable of acheiving on their own merit.

That's incorrect -- you really don't know the true definition of AA. You are more describing quotas. Yes, there is a difference.

DanceMan

Well I am no more informed by incorrect than I was by the bald assertion of what the assumption behind AA was. I disagree with Vic too in this way. I believe that the assumption I would call a fact behind AA is that many minorities, far from not being able to achieve on their own merits, have actually suffered massively more damage to their belief in their merit than most other people. This is because minorities and especially blacks have been subjected to intense bigoted hate for centuries and have had their families and cultural values ripped apart, on average. AA is an attempt to redress the destruction that was done. The problem, of course, is that self esteem problems are hard to fix because nobody will admit to having them. And nothing pisses off those who feel worthless more than the thought that some other worthless-feeling person is getting help. "I feel worthless, God Damn it, I will never admit to myself, and I made it all on my own; why can't that other worthless son of a bitch do the same."

We all feel absolutely worthless deeply hidden within, but the absolute magnitude of the damage we suffered runs up and down a scale.

Oh BS. There are more poor "white trash" (most of whom have been that way for generations) in the US than there are black people. When do they get their redress?

Point being, you can't fix a person's self-esteem problem by giving them a free ride. "Here, we all know you don't deserve it *wink*wink*" Yeah, that works...

The problem is that people think that discrimination has only economic consequences. It has socio-economic consequences, and that is what is addressed by AA.

By the way, AA is not race (or any other category) specific. As a matter of fact, white people benefit from AA more than any other protected catagory.

DanceMan

Prove it.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic
PC'ers don't like being forced to admit that AA (and similar forced diversity programs) are inherently racist because they (these programs) begin with the assumption that minorities are incapable of acheiving on their own merit.

That's BS. They begin with the assumption people are racist and won't outreach to minorities given half the chance. They hire thier own kind.

And you're ignorant to AA anyway. If it were a forced diversity program as you contend Denver would have hired a lot more than zero black FF in the last five years. There's nothing forced about it (other than you must be able to document outreach). Only a judge can do that after it's been shown a company/agency discrimminates.

 

[Zebo]

While racism and feelings of exclusion do exist all over the world and in many different professions, I vastly prefer sticking to the merit-only rating system, thanks very much

Good luck with that. Merit is a fantasy. Little, unquantifiable or subjective things like personaity, looks, vibes play a far more important role than grades or test scores. We're not machines but humans with all the faults that go with that. Not to mention even grades and experiance are subjective. Is a 4.0 from Boise State worth more than a 3.0 from Yale? I don't think so but some may. And this, is as bad as it, only get worse when you introduce friends, friend or son of friend, race relations, sex and a whole host of other human issues into the hiring equation.

 

[Zebo]

Is lowering testing requirments to promote diversity a good idea?
--------------------------
Depends if those "testing requirments" are discrimminatory does'nt it? If fire departments made it you had to bench 300Lbs that would eliminate women from the applicant pool.



is disqualifying felons for civil service positions racist agains blacks?
----------------------------
Disqualifing ex-cons is bad idea anyway in a fair and just society. If we feel he'she is safe to be among general population and they have paid their time, why continue thier punishment as a free person? Either thier not safe so lock them back up, or they are safe and did thier time and should enjoy the rights of being a free citizen again. Purgatory is gods domain.



are minimum strengh/agility requirments in physical occupations sexist?
-------------------------------
Depends how "minimun" they are, 300Lb "minimum" benchpress? Yes.
10 min mile? No. 220 Lb dummy drag? no.

do education requirments discriminate against blacks/women/hispanics
-----------------------------------
usually not.


am i the only one that thinks even debating these issues is stupid?
-----------------------------
No, but your questions are stupid and vauge.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo
That's BS. They begin with the assumption people are racist and won't outreach to minorities given half the chance. They hire thier own kind.

And you're ignorant to AA anyway. If it were a forced diversity program as you contend Denver would have hired a lot more than zero black FF in the last five years. There's nothing forced about it (other than you must be able to document outreach). Only a judge can do that after it's been shown a company/agency discrimminates.

Ridiculous. I couldn't give a crap about the pigment content of an individual's skin provided he can do the job <edit: and that is highly quantifiable>.

Regardless, you prove my point. AA is either racist... or it's a nanny state program that assumes that the people are racist. Either way, it's time has come and gone.

DFD is corrupt? Wow, a corrupt govt. dept.... shocking. :roll: And your solution is to empower govt. much more? Never learn, do you people? btw, AA isn't after-the-fact (which I support).

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

While racism and feelings of exclusion do exist all over the world and in many different professions, I vastly prefer sticking to the merit-only rating system, thanks very much

Good luck with that. Merit is a fantasy. Little, unquantifiable or subjective things like personaity, looks, vibes play a far more important role than grades or test scores. We're not machines but humans with all the faults that go with that. Not to mention even grades and experiance are subjective. Is a 4.0 from Boise State worth more than a 3.0 from Yale? I don't think so but some may. And this, is as bad as it, only get worse when you introduce friends, friend or son of friend, race relations, sex and a whole host of other human issues into the hiring equation.

Yep, 'cause Edison was a loser. Everyone knows that.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: abj13

Originally posted by: Vic

Oh BS. There are more poor "white trash" (most of whom have been that way for generations) in the US than there are black people. When do they get their redress?

The point is the ratios:

2003 Census Poverty
White (not Hispanic): 8.2%
Black: 24.3%
Asian: 11.8%
Hispanic: 22.5%

Clearly there is something wrong in the certain cultures where minorities have a higher ratio of poverty. Unless of course, people truely believe that all it takes in America is hard work, irregardless of his/her environmental situation.

Fixed for ya.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zebo
That's BS. They begin with the assumption people are racist and won't outreach to minorities given half the chance. They hire thier own kind.

And you're ignorant to AA anyway. If it were a forced diversity program as you contend Denver would have hired a lot more than zero black FF in the last five years. There's nothing forced about it (other than you must be able to document outreach). Only a judge can do that after it's been shown a company/agency discrimminates.

Ridiculous. I couldn't give a crap about the pigment content of an individual's skin provided he can do the job <edit: and that is highly quantifiable>.

Regardless, you prove my point. AA is either racist... or it's a nanny state program that assumes that the people are racist. Either way, it's time has come and gone.

DFD is corrupt? Wow, a corrupt govt. dept.... shocking. :roll: And your solution is to empower govt. much more? Never learn, do you people? btw, AA isn't after-the-fact (which I support).

Well I proud of you Vic. Most people I know arn't as enlightend as you.. AA ain't going anywhere believe that. Both parties support it big time.. I'd say republicans even more who made the laws and who have the power.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Satchel

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic
PC'ers don't like being forced to admit that AA (and similar forced diversity programs) are inherently racist because they (these programs) begin with the assumption that minorities are incapable of acheiving on their own merit.

That's incorrect -- you really don't know the true definition of AA. You are more describing quotas. Yes, there is a difference.

DanceMan

Well I am no more informed by incorrect than I was by the bald assertion of what the assumption behind AA was. I disagree with Vic too in this way. I believe that the assumption I would call a fact behind AA is that many minorities, far from not being able to achieve on their own merits, have actually suffered massively more damage to their belief in their merit than most other people. This is because minorities and especially blacks have been subjected to intense bigoted hate for centuries and have had their families and cultural values ripped apart, on average. AA is an attempt to redress the destruction that was done. The problem, of course, is that self esteem problems are hard to fix because nobody will admit to having them. And nothing pisses off those who feel worthless more than the thought that some other worthless-feeling person is getting help. "I feel worthless, God Damn it, I will never admit to myself, and I made it all on my own; why can't that other worthless son of a bitch do the same."

We all feel absolutely worthless deeply hidden within, but the absolute magnitude of the damage we suffered runs up and down a scale.

Oh BS. There are more poor "white trash" (most of whom have been that way for generations) in the US than there are black people. When do they get their redress?

Point being, you can't fix a person's self-esteem problem by giving them a free ride. "Here, we all know you don't deserve it *wink*wink*" Yeah, that works...

The problem is that people think that discrimination has only economic consequences. It has socio-economic consequences, and that is what is addressed by AA.

By the way, AA is not race (or any other category) specific. As a matter of fact, white people benefit from AA more than any other protected catagory.

DanceMan

Prove it.

Easy. Women. AA is not only racist, it's sexist too.

You're a white male, Satchel. You're not only evil, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth and everything you have was given to you. Hell, you've probably never had to work a day in your life, nor ever struggle to pay bills.

Originally posted by: Zebo
Well I proud of you Vic. Most people I know arn't as enlightend as you.. AA ain't going anywhere believe that. Both parties support it big time.. I'd say republicans even more who made the laws and who have the power.

To the bolded part: bullsh!t. Business doesn't care about skin color. It cares about profits. That's not enlightenment, that's just business. White, black, brown, man or woman: do the job or get out, because if the job doesn't get done we all go bankrupt. It ain't rocket science.

To the rest, duh. Both parties love government control over business. Government loves power, and AA is a means to that end. Sometimes I think you forget what you write in some of your other, more intelligent posts.

 

[Zebo]

nanny state program

No more or less nanny state program than having a fire department. If were going have state employees milking it's citizens I think it should represent the people paying for it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

nanny state program

No more or less nanny state program than having a fire department. If were going have state employees milking it's citizens I think it should represent the people paying for it.

And I think it should have the best individuals qualified to the job that the people pay them to do.
In order to end racism, we must stop being racist. That works both ways. We must become absolutely color blind. Or else we are still being racist.

 

[Zebo]

Business doesn't care about skin color.

A Business can't hire anybody, hiring managers do and all human frailties which go with that.

It cares about profits. That's not enlightenment, that's just business. White, black, brown, man or woman: do the job or get out, because if the job doesn't get done we all go bankrupt. It ain't rocket science.

Dream on. You're living a fantasy world. You really expect anyone to believe some like Lachlan Murdoch when he was ~ 26 with no real education and limited experiance was qualified for head a multi-national multi-billion $ company over all those other experianced officers who where overlooked for the job or his dad had something to do with that? You think I got a directorship at my dad's company along with serveral other siblings because I'm such a businessman.. LOL Grow up. I'm a engineer.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zebo

nanny state program

No more or less nanny state program than having a fire department. If were going have state employees milking it's citizens I think it should represent the people paying for it.

And I think it should have the best individuals qualified to the job that the people pay them to do.
In order to end racism, we must stop being racist. That works both ways. We must become absolutely color blind. Or else we are still being racist.

You hav'nt shown, how AA is rasict. Outreach is hardy rasict just the opposite.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Business doesn't care about skin color.

A Business can't hire anybody, hiring managers do and all human frailties which go with that.

It cares about profits. That's not enlightenment, that's just business. White, black, brown, man or woman: do the job or get out, because if the job doesn't get done we all go bankrupt. It ain't rocket science.

Dream on. You're living a fantasy world. You really expect anyone to believe some like Lachlan Murdoch when he was ~ 26 with no real education and limited experiance was qualified for head a multi-national multi-billion $ company over all those other experianced officers who where overlooked for the job or his dad had something to do with that? You think I got a directorship at my dad's company along with serveral other siblings because I'm such a businessman.. LOL Grow up. I'm a engineer.

Well... I guess this post explains a lot about the differences between you and me. You're not self-made.

Oh, and I didn't say businessman. I said get the job done. There is a difference. I've known a lot of "businessmen" (some with fancy MBA's) who couldn't find the bathroom without help, much less get the job done.

edit:

Originally posted by: Zebo
You hav'nt shown, how AA is rasict. Outreach is hardy rasict just the opposite.

Yes, I did. In my first post.

 

[Zebo]

You're not self-made

You're Right, no one is.. Don't fool yourself into think that. You're not Robinson Crusoe as proven you did'nt live the way he did. I will say I was lucky enough the be given wonderful opportunites and always tried to take advantge of them. That's all that's going on here. Giving women and minorities equal opportunity.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

You're not self-made

You're Right, no one is.. Don't fool yourself into think that. You're not Robinson Crusoe as proven you did'nt live the way he did. I will say I was lucky enough the be given wonderful opportunites and always tried to take advantge of them. That's all that's going on here. Giving women and minorities equal opportunity.

The doublethink is strong with you.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: beyoku
Why does every single question has some dumb answer for yes that puts the black person in an lower position everytime?
And yes, i will keep bringing this up. Since a white male with a felon has more qualification that a black male with no criminal records does that make the system inherently racist?
I can tell you this, of the black people that do pass the test, none of them will get the job anyway because as studies put it, they are at the bottom of the scale as far as "attractivness" as an applicant - even lower than you average white felon,. There was a long thread where we brough up AA, racism and all that good stuff. NOBODY in this entire forum could even admit it as being a problem. Save you energy.

ORZ - Vic, this is not a perfect world.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zebo

You're not self-made

You're Right, no one is.. Don't fool yourself into think that. You're not Robinson Crusoe as proven you did'nt live the way he did. I will say I was lucky enough the be given wonderful opportunites and always tried to take advantge of them. That's all that's going on here. Giving women and minorities equal opportunity.

The doublethink is strong with you.

You call a program which makes justice and equality, rascist. When there is no valid reason for blacks not to equaly represent the population they serve other than racism. I think we know who double thinks.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Zebo

You're not self-made

You're Right, no one is.. Don't fool yourself into think that. You're not Robinson Crusoe as proven you did'nt live the way he did. I will say I was lucky enough the be given wonderful opportunites and always tried to take advantge of them. That's all that's going on here. Giving women and minorities equal opportunity.

The doublethink is strong with you.

You call a program which makes justice and equality, rascist. When there is no valid reason for blacks not to equaly represent the population they serve other than racism. I think we know who double thinks.

BS. You're a poor little rich kid with a guilty conscience who, unwilling to part with any of his own, supports a system that makes others do the charity of your guilty conscience for you. Dirt-poor white males in trailer parks who can't get a good job because of AA thank you for forcing them to sacrifice for you.
Yaknow, welfare is the same thing. Once upon a time, the rich actually had to give to the poor. Now they have the perfect system to make the middle class do that for them.

 

[Moonbeam]

God Vic, you can be such an idiot. You want to be race blind after the black horse got capped. You want to cry about how people can't benefit from handouts but look at all the damage done by deprivation. We're not talking handouts but opportunity an expanded chance to succeed. You bury people and tell them to dig themselves out. You suffer the conceit of the imagined self made who need to assume from self hate that they made it on merit. You are what you are as a result of accident you know nothing about.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
God Vic, you can be such an idiot. You want to be race blind after the black horse got capped. You want to cry about how people can't benefit from handouts but look at all the damage done by deprivation. We're not talking handouts but opportunity an expanded chance to succeed. You bury people and tell them to dig themselves out. You suffer the conceit of the imagined self made who need to assume from self hate that they made it on merit. You are what you are as a result of accident you know nothing about.

The first flaw in your argument, Moonie, is that it is not I who has buried anyone. I feel no self hate. Simply pity and disgust for those misguided individuals who cannot tell the difference between choice and coercion... between opportunity and the point of a gun. That is all.

 

[DanceMan]

Originally posted by: Satchel

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: DanceMan

Originally posted by: Vic
PC'ers don't like being forced to admit that AA (and similar forced diversity programs) are inherently racist because they (these programs) begin with the assumption that minorities are incapable of acheiving on their own merit.

That's incorrect -- you really don't know the true definition of AA. You are more describing quotas. Yes, there is a difference.

DanceMan

Well I am no more informed by incorrect than I was by the bald assertion of what the assumption behind AA was. I disagree with Vic too in this way. I believe that the assumption I would call a fact behind AA is that many minorities, far from not being able to achieve on their own merits, have actually suffered massively more damage to their belief in their merit than most other people. This is because minorities and especially blacks have been subjected to intense bigoted hate for centuries and have had their families and cultural values ripped apart, on average. AA is an attempt to redress the destruction that was done. The problem, of course, is that self esteem problems are hard to fix because nobody will admit to having them. And nothing pisses off those who feel worthless more than the thought that some other worthless-feeling person is getting help. "I feel worthless, God Damn it, I will never admit to myself, and I made it all on my own; why can't that other worthless son of a bitch do the same."

We all feel absolutely worthless deeply hidden within, but the absolute magnitude of the damage we suffered runs up and down a scale.

Oh BS. There are more poor "white trash" (most of whom have been that way for generations) in the US than there are black people. When do they get their redress?

Point being, you can't fix a person's self-esteem problem by giving them a free ride. "Here, we all know you don't deserve it *wink*wink*" Yeah, that works...

The problem is that people think that discrimination has only economic consequences. It has socio-economic consequences, and that is what is addressed by AA.

By the way, AA is not race (or any other category) specific. As a matter of fact, white people benefit from AA more than any other protected catagory.

DanceMan

Prove it.

Edited: Somehow, it posted before I wanted it to!

I'm not sure which you're asking me to prove, but's let's take each statement that I made above:

1) AA is not race or any category specific. That's tough to prove, but as I learned it (as part of a corporate training class), this is the definition that I know: When there are two candidates that are equally qualified, the underrepresented person shoud be given the consideration. I see a lot of definitions with the word 'minority' instead of 'underrepresented', but even in this case, I still think it works, because white people can be in the minority, too, depending on the situation. And we do see this happening in a number of cases. I have always stated that AA should be applied in this cases also.

2) As for how white people benefit more from AA than any other protected class, here's the response that I gave to a previous P&N forum discussion on AA:

As to how white people mostly benefit from AA, a little known fact is that white (or any) females are covered by AA guidelines. This is a very important concept to understand. There are slightly more females than males in the U.S. population, therefore AA actually applies to the majority of the population -- not just some small minority segment, as many people believe. Secondly, having women (white or otherwise) in the workforce has had a profound impact on our economy and society. It has been said that women have been an integral part of the 80's and 90's economic boom. Working women have allowed families to afford (and spend more) with two-incomes rather than one, and all of the benefits (and as some point out, drawbacks) that that entails. And, very recently we have now seen a crop of women CEO's that have done well leading Fortune 500 companies. Well, although they might be very talented and capable, they owe a lot of success to AA. Finally, realizing this, this should squelch the feeling that many white males have that they will be passed over for employment, promotions or education for an un-qualfied minority. They would be more statistically likely to be passed over for a white female than any other AA-represented person.

DanceMan

 

[Tab]

I have absolutely no idea what you're discussing, but it seems like it's interesting. What the hell is the AA?

 

[DanceMan]

Yep, I had to re-edit it. Somehow, when I was typing, it went and posted. See my edited comment above.

DanceMan