Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage

[realibrad]

Those are good points, but he said "inherently prone to being more violent". I think that's a reasonable statement. When one corrects for things like socioeconomic status and single parent households, we're all pretty much the same.

We tend to think in terms of black culture and white culture, but in reality most of our culture is common to all of us. Even immigrants who don't speak English tend to pick up a lot of American culture. Jamaicans who bathed on the front porch in Jamaica usually don't do so in America in Compton. Russians who spent winter days in a trench coat and bathing suit waiting for rays of sun so that they can throw wide their coats and soak up some vitamin D probably don't do so in Traverse City. Even when we really don't understand why, we tend to emulate other people around us.

Reasonable sure. The problem is likely due to culture. While a lot of our cultures share common ground, they are still very different. It would probably be a lot different if the west was not so wealthy, but I think you and I both agree that the wealth comes partly from culture.

 

[werepossum]

Reasonable sure. The problem is likely due to culture. While a lot of our cultures share common ground, they are still very different. It would probably be a lot different if the west was not so wealthy, but I think you and I both agree that the wealth comes partly from culture.

I agree completely.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Reasonable sure. The problem is likely due to culture. While a lot of our cultures share common ground, they are still very different. It would probably be a lot different if the west was not so wealthy, but I think you and I both agree that the wealth comes partly from culture.

The environment also shaped that culture.

The gangs came before the glorification of the gangsta lifestyle.

 

[Rakehellion]

From 1980-2008 Blacks committed 52.5% of all homicides, whites 45.3%. Given the demographics of race in this country, it would be 100% factual to say that blacks commit more murders and more per capita as well. Do you think those stats are biased in any way?

40% of homicides are unsolved. Since blacks are targeted by police more, it's natural to assume that disproportionately more crimes committed by whites go unpunished. Correct?

Also, 99.9% of blacks never commit homicide. Unless you think those statistics lie, it's inappropriate to treat someone like a criminal just because they're black, right?

 

[realibrad]

40% of homicides are unsolved. Since blacks are targeted by police more, it's natural to assume that disproportionately more crimes committed by whites go unpunished. Correct?

Also, 99.9% of blacks never commit homicide. Unless you think those statistics lie, it's inappropriate to treat someone like a criminal just because they're black, right?

It's late and I'm sick but let's do some math.

45 million blacks.
197 million whites.
12664 murder victims in 2011.
52.4% of convicted were black.
45.2% of convicted were white.
Total black murderers 6783.
Total white murderers 5724.
1 for every 6,783 black people are a murderer.
1 for every 34,416 whites are a murderer.
A black person is 5 times more likely to be a murderer.

Also it's 33% not 40% that go unsolved. For your point that blacks are targeted more, well that is crap unless you have some data showing blacks get caught more. You would have to give the vast majority of unsolved to whites to catch up in rate.

Also, the point was not to treat anyone as criminals. I clearly said that a cop will be more defensive because of a much higher likelihood that a black person could be more violent.

No cop should assume a black person is guilty, but its reasonable to be more cautious. It's just simple math.

 

[Rakehellion]

It's late and I'm sick but let's do some math.

45 million blacks.
197 million whites.
12664

So 12664/45000000 = 0.028% of blacks ostensibly are murderers. So why treat all of them bad?

 

[realibrad]

So 12664/45000000 = 0.028% of blacks ostensibly are murderers. So why treat all of them bad?

Because that is 5 times higher. I had not finished my post but clicked submit. It's now a much longer post.

 

[elitejp]

FBI statistics point out the same. Its been a fact for a long time, and an unfortunate at that. Another thing to consider is just because an unarmed black man was shot and killed that does not mean that he was killed by a white cop. That statistic I still havent seen. I see statistics where it says cops killed x amount of unarmed blacks but it doesnt say whether or not the cop was black, white, red or yellow. And it doesnt help when someone is pointing or holding an object that might look like a weapon. Theres alot of things to factor. But to say cops are going around just killing to kill is far from reality.
One report I read recently explained that overall with murders black people killed black people and white people killed white people. It makes sense. Most victims of murder know their assailant, and live within the general vicinity of each other...same city/neighborhood etc. Ive always though that this would hold true with police shooting as well. A black neighborhood will have more black police monitoring it than white police. They grew up in that neighborhood and want to make a change. Plus I think police realize that 2 white police officers patrolling a black neighborhood really isnt the safest option for white police. Not only that but im sure that they dont need any more news publicity about a white cop killing a black teen.

I think its very difficult to be a police officer. Even if you get pulled over or stopped for no reason what ethnicity is more likely to cause an uproar over the matter? And for some reason ive never even had a problem with any cop that has pulled me over. Probably because I turn the lights on inside the car and put my hands where they are easily seen. I dont start fooling around looking for my license that dropped under the seat next to me. The cop comes over asks for my license and im polite. I dont start cussing him out because he frivolously stopped me. If I want to cause him some problems I will get his badge number and file a complaint. Enough of those and he will most likely lose out on a promotion. We got people acting like idiots and being overly aggressive and then want to get on tv with there pastor and talk about how they were unfairly treated.

 

[elitejp]

Exactly, and well put. I totally understand this from the cops' point of view. This issue is the basic unfairness to a person who simply happens to be black. To go back to Homer and I, we are both individuals; statistics about crime have nothing to do with us personally. Yet we will be treated differently when cops have to make instant life and death decisions. That is prejudice; we have both been pre-judged based solely on superficial things we can't change. (Also on superficial things we can change, such as clothing and tattoos, but it's the things we can't change that form the basis of society's unfairness.)

This isn't easily changed. One thing that will help is better training. Cops should get the same training as do soldiers and Marines preparing for peacekeeping duty deployment in hostile areas. This should be a periodic requirement too; people do change, skills do get lost. Another thing that should change is police recruiting. An absolute requirement of the job is the willingness to run toward the shooting rather than away. But that isn't the only requirement; there is also a need for restraint, so that after running toward the shooting, the cop doesn't shoot the wrong people. Or for that matter, anyone who doesn't absolutely have to be shot. To effectively do their jobs, police officers are entrusted with deadly force and the presumption (barring evidence to the contrary) of being justified in using it. That is a huge amount of power, and both selection, training, and ongoing monitoring are critical.

I think another thing that would help a huge amount is to get cops out of the cars and onto the sidewalks. Cops cruising by in a black area see only a sea of faces, most (to them) hostile. Same thing with the way the locals see the cops. Get them on foot, talking to the people, interacting with the people, they see them as individuals. This one is hostile, that one is friendly. This one is on drugs, that one is working two jobs and raising his grandchild. This one hates cops and is likely dangerous - but that one over there is his cousin and can talk him down. When you get to know people, even superficially, it's harder to think in terms of us and them rather than as individuals. That applies to both sides equally. When you don't know the cops but you do know the guy they shot, it's harder to admit that it might have been justified.


I call bullshit on your bullshit. Even where no one is arrested, race is often known. The most common victims of black violence are other black people, and it's just silly to argue that a dozen black people shot/shot at stereotyped a car of white guys committing a drive-by shooting into a car of black guys. Same with home invasions, carjackings, armed robbery, etc.

I completely agree that it's unjust to judge black people on the base of racial statistics. Groups don't commit crimes, individuals do, and individuals are not necessarily in any way similar to people they superficially resemble any more than guys who look like Bernie Madoff are necessarily scam artists looking to steal your life savings. I just don't see how to fix it as long as the underlying statistics don't change. We can however lessen it, with better cops and especially with better training and practices.

More black cops would also probably help. Even black cops assume black men are more likely to be threats than are men of other races. But if an officer (of any race) is riding a squad car every day with a black officer, that has to make him less likely to pre-judge a particular black man as threatening based solely on race.

I think this is a great post and agree with mostly everything. And I very much agree that you shouldnt judge based on race but thats easier said than done. Alot of problems are being fueled by black american rap stars. Many song lyrics are violent and offensive to cops which gets into the ears of pre teens and they go around singing it and thinking its cool not to be respectful to cops or anyone else for that matter. As time goes on cops are now an enemy whether or not a cop has ever given them a hard time or not.

 

[Rakehellion]

FBI statistics point out the same. Its been a fact for a long time, and an unfortunate at that. Another thing to consider is just because an unarmed black man was shot and killed that does not mean that he was killed by a white cop. That statistic I still havent seen. I see statistics where it says cops killed x amount of unarmed blacks but it doesnt say whether or not the cop was black, white, red or yellow.

Black cops discriminate against black people too and many white cops don't. It isn't a dichotomy.

 

[ivwshane]

It's late and I'm sick but let's do some math.

45 million blacks.
197 million whites.
12664 murder victims in 2011.
52.4% of convicted were black.
45.2% of convicted were white.
Total black murderers 6783.
Total white murderers 5724.
1 for every 6,783 black people are a murderer.
1 for every 34,416 whites are a murderer.
A black person is 5 times more likely to be a murderer.

Also it's 33% not 40% that go unsolved. For your point that blacks are targeted more, well that is crap unless you have some data showing blacks get caught more. You would have to give the vast majority of unsolved to whites to catch up in rate.

Also, the point was not to treat anyone as criminals. I clearly said that a cop will be more defensive because of a much higher likelihood that a black person could be more violent.

No cop should assume a black person is guilty, but its reasonable to be more cautious. It's just simple math.

Are black people more likely to be convicted of a crime compared to white people?

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Are black people more likely to be convicted of a crime compared to white people?

Yes, because of the same stereotyping. Convictions are about perceived threat, and money, but we will ignore that for now. Which is why men and women get radically different outcomes. You're WAY better off being a black woman, than a white man in the judicial system.

If you want to argue the judicial system is racist, then you have to concede also misandrist as well. In fact, the misandry completely dwarfs the racism, and we should therefore solve that problem first, correct? It would go a lot further to help black men in the system, than tackling the race issue, and would have the added benefit of helping everyone else too.

Of course, cops don't convict people, so I am not sure how this was relevant to begin with.

 

[ivwshane]

Yes, because of the same stereotyping. Convictions are about perceived threat, and money, but we will ignore that for now. Which is why men and women get radically different outcomes. You're WAY better off being a black woman, than a white man in the judicial system.

If you want to argue the judicial system is racist, then you have to concede also misandrist as well. In fact, the misandry completely dwarfs the racism, and we should therefore solve that problem first, correct? It would go a lot further to help black men in the system, than tackling the race issue, and would have the added benefit of helping everyone else too.

Of course, cops don't convict people, so I am not sure how this was relevant to begin with.

Then you should be asking the person that posted that information.

 

[realibrad]

Are black people more likely to be convicted of a crime compared to white people?

Are you asking if white people get away with murder more than black people?

 

[justoh]

Religion of police

 

[realibrad]

Religion of police

I think once we get past the majority of people being religious, that will be the next big thing. I see that when I point out the figures I do, people use that to further their agenda. I say that black people commit more murders, and that fuels some for their racism. I think the main reason push back against what I say, is the worry that my facts will enable those who want to push their agenda, and they might be right.

I think far too many are dependent on others telling them what to do. We are growing the police state because people want it. People do not want to be responsible for things, and safety is one. We have given so much power to the police and its getting abused. When you see an old Indian man get slammed to the ground because the cop felt the guy was not listening, we have a problem.

We have officers that over react to situations, and civilians that overreact to incidents. We seem to have a problem for holding people accountable in stressful situations. A cop can shoot someone because he was afraid. A black teen can get into a fight with an officer, grab for his gun, run away, then charge the officer but be unarmed and people say cops are wrong. Everyone is way too polarized and can dismiss any criticism with "that's my opinion". We as a culture need to get better at challenging bad ideas, and not try to legislate them away. We all need to hold ourselves accountable.

 

[JEDIYoda]

The gangs came before the glorification of the gangsta lifestyle.

That's a dumb thing to say....

Of course they did!! Duh......

How can you glorify something that does not exist....

 

[realibrad]

How can you glorify something that does not exist....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Catholicism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
...
The list goes on for a while.

 

[werepossum]

I think this is a great post and agree with mostly everything. And I very much agree that you shouldnt judge based on race but thats easier said than done. Alot of problems are being fueled by black american rap stars. Many song lyrics are violent and offensive to cops which gets into the ears of pre teens and they go around singing it and thinking its cool not to be respectful to cops or anyone else for that matter. As time goes on cops are now an enemy whether or not a cop has ever given them a hard time or not.

Thanks. The gangsta rap part is a good point too - hearing music about killing cops and committing crimes probably does as much as anything to convince cops they are in a war zone.

Are you asking if white people get away with murder more than black people?

Pretty much all crime. Blacks enjoy only one advantage - the race card. Most of the time that probably works against them rather than for them. Beyond that, the biggest single factor is probably wealth - how much lawyerin' you can buy. There are simply more wealthy whites by percentage, so as a race white people enjoy an advantage there. It's also additive - a black man is more likely to live in a high crime area, more likely to be stopped, more likely to be arrested, and more likely to be convicted. Once one has been convicted of anything serious - and even victimless crimes such as personal drug use are often felonies - one's employment prospects are severely reduced, making it even less likely that one can hire enough attorney to get probation or dismissed charges or more likely, diversion into a "treatment" facility. Also, private third party probation & monitoring is catching on and its pretty expensive. This also increases the temptation to break the law. When, say, someone's child's birthday is coming up, Anyone is more likely to steal or rob when if they have nothing in the bank and thirty dollars a week after bills for groceries and presents than if they have tens of thousands in the bank and three hundred dollars a week.

It's a vicious circle. Some people simply aren't bright enough or industrious enough to escape a really bad situation. Others would be if given some guidance and help. Still others are bright enough and industrious enough to escape but aren't convinced that "people like them" really have a shot. All these people perpetuate the problem unless someone breaks the cycle.

 

[werepossum]

I think once we get past the majority of people being religious, that will be the next big thing. I see that when I point out the figures I do, people use that to further their agenda. I say that black people commit more murders, and that fuels some for their racism. I think the main reason push back against what I say, is the worry that my facts will enable those who want to push their agenda, and they might be right.

I think far too many are dependent on others telling them what to do. We are growing the police state because people want it. People do not want to be responsible for things, and safety is one. We have given so much power to the police and its getting abused. When you see an old Indian man get slammed to the ground because the cop felt the guy was not listening, we have a problem.

We have officers that over react to situations, and civilians that overreact to incidents. We seem to have a problem for holding people accountable in stressful situations. A cop can shoot someone because he was afraid. A black teen can get into a fight with an officer, grab for his gun, run away, then charge the officer but be unarmed and people say cops are wrong. Everyone is way too polarized and can dismiss any criticism with "that's my opinion". We as a culture need to get better at challenging bad ideas, and not try to legislate them away. We all need to hold ourselves accountable.

Well said.

 

[realibrad]

It's a vicious circle. Some people simply aren't bright enough or industrious enough to escape a really bad situation. Others would be if given some guidance and help. Still others are bright enough and industrious enough to escape but aren't convinced that "people like them" really have a shot. All these people perpetuate the problem unless someone breaks the cycle.

I grew up in a pretty poor area in CA. Many people I knew then were in gangs. Some are dead, some are paralyzed ect. Violence is a cycle.

Here is a sick sad story of a friend of mine.

Her brothers were drug dealers. House got shot at multiple times. One of her sisters was convinced at 14 to sleep with the brothers when she was 14. Mom could not care less about what is going on. My friend started dating her brothers friends at the age of 14 when the guys were all 20+. She could only date her brothers friends because they would not let her date anyone else. She got tired of her brothers and started dating a guy who was 30 when she was 17. Got married to him just so she could move out of the house. Is now split from him and is a HS dropout. No future, no hope.

Her situation is not biological, its cultural. Sad.

 

[realibrad]

I grew up in a pretty poor area in CA. Many people I knew then were in gangs. Some are dead, some are paralyzed ect. Violence is a cycle.

Here is a sick sad story of a friend of mine.

Her brothers were drug dealers. House got shot at multiple times. One of her sisters was convinced at 14 to sleep with the brothers when she was 14. Mom could not care less about what is going on. My friend started dating her brothers friends at the age of 14 when the guys were all 20+. She could only date her brothers friends because they would not let her date anyone else. She got tired of her brothers and started dating a guy who was 30 when she was 17. Got married to him just so she could move out of the house. Is now split from him and is a HS dropout. No future, no hope.

Her situation is not biological, its cultural. Sad.

Looks like I have killed another thread.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Sounds like a mix of poverty & the drug war to me.

 

[Rakehellion]

Are black people more likely to be convicted of a crime compared to white people?

More likely to be arrested, more likely to be convicted, and given harsher sentences for the same crimes.

 

[Rakehellion]

Thanks. The gangsta rap part is a good point too - hearing music about killing cops and committing crimes probably does as much as anything to convince cops they are in a war zone.

I'm just taking a wild guess here, but I don't think many cops listen to rap music.