Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage

[DrPizza]

Well ignoring your overtly racist white guy comment...

The solution is pretty easy to see.

Some percentage of stops by police are unjustified, I'll call them "bullshit stops". Black people are more likely to be the target of these bullshit stops. Since they are unjustified stops, the 'victim' is very unlikely to be killed by the police.

So on an per encounter basis, since many stops of black people are bullshit stops, they're not as likely to be killed on any individual stop. But since they are stopped so much, their overall kill rate by police goes up.

One thing that contradicts the above is Victorian Grey's chart, which shows that a white person attacking a police officer is more likely to be killed than a black person attacking a police officer. I would bet that many police are more reluctant to use force, in general, on black people than on white people for very obvious reasons.

There was nothing "overtly racist" intended in my comments, I merely read the OP's sources and attempted to clarify what the OP was trying to say.

I found the rates to be pretty much spot on from murder conviction rates.

Why would you think whites would be more prone to commit suicide by cop? Or are you saying this may be a reason behind this stat?

But both of you are correct - perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought it was more common to "go out in a blaze of glory" or "they're not taking me alive" for white males than for black males. Perhaps I've been biased from so many movies where this happens. However, per CNN stats (might be older), white males were responsible for over 60% of the mass shootings, black males only 16% of the mass shootings. I'm thinking more of those types of incidents, where the perpetrator is very likely to be shot.

 

[buckshot24]

But both of you are correct - perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought it was more common to "go out in a blaze of glory" or "they're not taking me alive" for white males than for black males. Perhaps I've been biased from so many movies where this happens. However, per CNN stats (might be older), white males were responsible for over 60% of the mass shootings, black males only 16% of the mass shootings. I'm thinking more of those types of incidents, where the perpetrator is very likely to be shot.

Aren't those numbers pretty representative of the population?

 

[shady28]

Aren't those numbers pretty representative of the population?

Actually as a percentage of population, black people are more likely to act in a mass shooting than white people. Whites make up ~67% of the population and commit 60% of the mass shootings, while blacks make up 13.5% of the population and commit 16% of the shootings.

Doing the math on that, any individual black person is ~25% more likely to commit a mass shooting than a white person.

And a random white person is about 30% more likely to own a gun.

But we really know all of that already. What would be more interesting is if these stats were broken down for other factors.

For example, what if you only surveyed households with an income range of $80k - $100k. ie, control for income.

Or, what is the effect of working odd hours - do people who work 2nd shift and typically drive home from work after say 11PM have a greater likelihood of being shot by a cop? I have only been pulled over for "bullshit" a few times in my life, but they were all stops when I worked strange hours and was driving around at 1AM or some such. I was followed by cops *many* times driving home, and yeah I'm a white guy.

And if that's a factor, what % of black people work 2nd shift vs white people? I'd bet it's quite high.

Lots of factors to control for that are never looked at.

 

[smackababy]

Actually as a percentage of population, black people are more likely to act in a mass shooting than white people. Whites make up ~67% of the population and commit 60% of the mass shootings, while blacks make up 13.5% of the population and commit 16% of the shootings.



Doing the math on that, any individual black person is ~25% more likely to commit a mass shooting than a white person.



And a random white person is about 30% more likely to own a gun.



But we really know all of that already. What would be more interesting is if these stats were broken down for other factors.



For example, what if you only surveyed households with an income range of $80k - $100k. ie, control for income.



Or, what is the effect of working odd hours - do people who work 2nd shift and typically drive home from work after say 11PM have a greater likelihood of being shot by a cop? I have only been pulled over for "bullshit" a few times in my life, but they were all stops when I worked strange hours and was driving around at 1AM or some such. I was followed by cops *many* times driving home, and yeah I'm a white guy.



And if that's a factor, what % of black people work 2nd shift vs white people? I'd bet it's quite high.



Lots of factors to control for that are never looked at.

If wager income level is one of the biggest factors of participating in gun violence.

 

[Spungo]

If wager income level is one of the biggest factors of participating in gun violence.

Careful with that term. People on the extreme left tend to include suicide when talking about gun violence. The majority of gun deaths are actually caused by suicide.

It's the same bullshit as calling it "rape" when someone looks at you the wrong way. Then we get these absurd numbers like 1/4 women being raped. The stat is actually talking about someone being called a bad name, but the misuse of language is intended to make people thinking 1/4 are being held down and mouth fucked.

 

[blankslate]

It appears that per capita in the 2000s Non-hispanic white people were less likely to have a fatal incident during an arrest.

The main reason that that more Non-hispanic white people have such encounters in absolute numbers than black people is that the there are many more non-hispanic white people in America than black people.
In 2010 Non-Hispanic White people (yeah that's a category) were 72.4% of the population while black people were 12.6% of the population.

Now if you go by percentage of the populations a higher percentage of black people (by population) die during an arrest than the percentage of non-hispanic white people.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...u07PYqa6aHKE/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1924376183

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf

http://www.infoplease.com/us/statistics/us-population-by-race.html

It depends on how you want to look at the data I guess.

Look at figure 2 and table 3 in the 2nd link. Then compare those numbers by dividing by the comparable populations 2010 or 2000 in the last link (posted above)


Even though Non-histpanic whites account for more arrest related deaths in absolute numbers (in table 2 of this link http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf) it appears that this is due to the number of non-hispanic whites in the U.S. compared to blacks.

However, if you divide the number of arrest related deaths, which is 2026, by the 2010 population of non-hispanic whites 223,553,265 you get 0.00000906271 or 0.0009%

Now if you divide number of arrest related deaths 1529, by the number of blacks in 2010, which is 38,929,319 you get the result of 0.0000392763 or 0.0039%

Or to look at the information another way there are well over 6 times as many whites in the U.S. than there are blacks as of 2010 yet according to the Bureau of Justice Statics there are not 6 times as many deaths of whites in relation to being arrested as there are deaths of blacks.


Maybe I'm interpreting the information wrong, but it appears that a black person is more likely to be the victim of an arrest-related death as a percentage of the population of blacks than a non-hispanic white person.


Maybe people interpret data in ways that favor their point of view?

probably.

*e2a*

I just noticed that the census information in the U.S. population table with information from 2000 and 2010 does not distinguish between Hispanic and Non-hispanic whites so I'll find another chart with the distinct groups or group those 2 groups from the Bureau of Justice tables together and redo the calculations later.

I doubt the per capita results will change all that much though.


________________

 

[smackababy]

Careful with that term. People on the extreme left tend to include suicide when talking about gun violence. The majority of gun deaths are actually caused by suicide.



It's the same bullshit as calling it "rape" when someone looks at you the wrong way. Then we get these absurd numbers like 1/4 women being raped. The stat is actually talking about someone being called a bad name, but the misuse of language is intended to make people thinking 1/4 are being held down and mouth fucked.

True, I should have used gun homicide. Though, I wouldn't be surprised if income level effected suicide rates as well.

 

[feralkid]

The OP clearly doesn't understand the issue. Police brutality and disproportionate profiling/arrests of black people are not the same thing. The OP illustrates precisely why minimizing black lives matter with all lives matters is a stupid thing to do.

OP has been revealing his general cluelessness at an advanced rate lately.

 

[nexus5rocks]

This doesn't address how blacks respond and react when confronted by LEO.
If you're combative, you're more likely to be shot.

What you might be missing is proportion.

"An analysis of the available FBI data by Vox's Dara Lind shows that US police kill black people at disproportionate rates: they accounted for 31 percent of police killing victims in 2012, even though they made up just 13 percent of the US population. Although the data is incomplete, since it's based on voluntary reports from police agencies around the country, it highlights the vast disparities in how police use force.

"Black teens were 21 times as likely as white teens to be shot and killed by police between 2010 and 2012, according to a ProPublica analysis of the FBI data. ProPublica reported: "One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica's analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring — 185, more than one per week."

And the study that Vox links:

"Young black males in recent years were at a far greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts – 21 times greater i, according to a ProPublica analysis of federally collected data on fatal police shootings.

The 1,217 deadly police shootings from 2010 to 2012 captured in the federal data show that blacks, age 15 to 19, were killed at a rate of 31.17 per million, while just 1.47 per million white males in that age range died at the hands of police.

One way of appreciating that stark disparity, ProPublica's analysis shows, is to calculate how many more whites over those three years would have had to have been killed for them to have been at equal risk. The number is jarring – 185, more than one per week."

http://www.propublica.org/article/deadly-force-in-black-and-white

 

[werepossum]

There was nothing "overtly racist" intended in my comments, I merely read the OP's sources and attempted to clarify what the OP was trying to say.

But both of you are correct - perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought it was more common to "go out in a blaze of glory" or "they're not taking me alive" for white males than for black males. Perhaps I've been biased from so many movies where this happens. However, per CNN stats (might be older), white males were responsible for over 60% of the mass shootings, black males only 16% of the mass shootings. I'm thinking more of those types of incidents, where the perpetrator is very likely to be shot.

Everything involving being bat shit crazy is dominated by white guys. Some dude shoots up his workplace, could be white or black or brown or yellow. Some dude shoots up his workplace while wearing a dress, gorilla mask, and strap-on, he is invariably white. You don't see any black guys wearing Kleenex boxes as shoes, or Mexican guys insisting they are Napoleon reincarnated. We gots the cray-cray.

 

[highland145]

Everything involving being bat shit crazy is dominated by white guys. Some dude shoots up his workplace, could be white or black or brown or yellow. Some dude shoots up his workplace while wearing a dress, gorilla mask, and strap-on, he is invariably white. You don't see any black guys wearing Kleenex boxes as shoes, or Mexican guys insisting they are Napoleon reincarnated. We gots the cray-cray.

This guy was just a POS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings_Arthur_Wise

Hastings Wise was an ex-convict who had served prison time for bank robbery and receipt of stolen goods before obtaining a technical degree and, eventually, finding employment at R.E. Phelon. He had no criminal convictions for the approximately fifteen years between his release from prison and the murders of 1997. According to his pastor, in eleven years, he had "hardly ever" missed a week of Sunday services.
The motive for the murders was Wise's termination of employment with the factory following a confrontation with a supervisor eleven weeks earlier. Wise had worked there as a machine operator for more than four years until his firing in July 1997. After his dismissal, Wise told co-workers he would "be back."
Testimony was presented at trial that he had felt discriminated against for his African-American race all his life. The jobs he wanted were given to white employees by a white personnel director. Wise killed the director, and three other white workers as well.
On September 15, the day of the murders, Hastings Wise drove into the Phelon employee parking lot for a scheduled meeting to pick up a box of personal items from Stanley Vance, a security guard. Instead, he shot Vance in the chest with a semi-automatic pistol. Wise tore out the guard station's phone lines and told Vance, "I got things to do." Vance survived his injuries.
Wise then entered the main building, first going to the personnel office, where he fatally shot Charles Griffeth, the man who had fired him, twice in the back. Griffeth was 56 years old.
The next victims were in the tool and die area. He fired rapidly, killing David Wayne Moore, 30, and Ernest Leonard Filyaw, 31. Two other people were injured in this area. According to news reports, both Moore and Filyaw were engaged to be married at the time of their murders. According to court documents, Wise had wanted a promotion to the tool and die area where Moore and Filyaw worked, but had not gotten it.
The last victim was Esther Sheryl Wood, 27, who held a quality control position. He first shot her in the back and leg and then, in what Aiken County prosecutor Barbara Morgan described as "execution-style," shot her in the head. Contemporary news reports stated he had been denied a promotion to Wood's job.
Wise reloaded several times as he walked through the plant, shooting and screaming something incomprehensible to the witnesses who later testified at trial. Police recovered four empty magazines, each with a capacity of 8 bullets. There were also four full magazines and 123 more bullets.
After Wise reached the upper floor of the plant, he lay down and swallowed insecticide in a suicide attempt. He was semi-conscious when police located him.

 

[Rakehellion]

these: “Although black men make up only 6 percent of the US population, they account for 40 percent of the unarmed men shot to death by police this year.”

This ignores the fact that black violent-crime rates are far higher than those of whites. According to the Department of Justice, blacks committed 52.5 percent of the murders in America from 1980 to 2008, when they represented 12.6 percent of the population.

So it's okay for a black guy to get shot just because his next door neighbor is a murderer? In other words, stereotyping, is A-OK.

 

[buckshot24]

So it's okay for a black guy to get shot just because his next door neighbor is a murderer? In other words, stereotyping, is A-OK.

If whites didn't wear seat belts as often as Asians they would die more often in car accidents than Asians. Nobody is saying the white guy who wears a seat belt should die just trying to explain the facts.

 

[werepossum]

You "Really" Do live in a Fantasy Land.

This ignores the fact that black violent-crime rates are far higher than those of whites. According to the Department of Justice, blacks committed 52.5 percent of the murders in America from 1980 to 2008, when they represented 12.6 percent of the population.

http://nypost.com/2016/01/02/myth-of-the-cop-killing-epidemic/

So it's okay for a black guy to get shot just because his next door neighbor is a murderer? In other words, stereotyping, is A-OK.

Here we have two sides of the same coin, both with valid merits. Blacks are more violent, more likely to be murderers, and more likely to run from cops, be argumentative to cops, or flat-out attack cops. Blacks are more dangerous to cops and others. Even Jessie Jackson recounted how late at night he felt relief when he saw that the young men overtaking him one late night were white. I understand all those things. On the other hand, when seconds count and cops are making life and death decisions, cops evaluate individuals based on these group characteristics. If Homer and I are doing the exact same thing in the exact same place, he stands a greater chance than I of being shot by a cop who does not know either of us. Homer may have earned a Medal of Honor and a Noble Peace Prize and be halfway through his beatification and I may have been arrested every week for the last several decades except when I was in prison, but that differentiation still stands.

I don't know how to fix it, but I see no value in trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

This guy was just a POS.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastings_Arthur_Wise

Yup. We whites got the cray-cray, but evil is an equal opportunity employer.

 

[realibrad]

So it's okay for a black guy to get shot just because his next door neighbor is a murderer? In other words, stereotyping, is A-OK.

Not okay to kill, but its far more reasonable for a cop to not give a little when dealing with a group that is more likely to be violent. If I am walking down the street at night, and a I see a small child maybe 5yo, I will not fear for my life. I would wonder what the hell the kid is doing, but not be fearful for my safety. If I were on the same street at night and a large man was walking near me, I would be a lot more afraid. I am in every way stereotyping men when I do this, because not all men will do anything. Most men will not do anything actually.

So when a cop finds himself in a situation where he is dealing with a group that is more likely to be violent, he is going to be far more defensive. That should not excuse a cop from over reacting, but it will mean he would be less likely to de-escalate if it means giving up his safety.

 

[Rakehellion]

Blacks are more violent

Bullshit. We've just established that they're arrested more because they're targeted more due to stereotyping.

And even if this were the case, 99% of blacks are not criminals so it's unjust to treat them that way.

 

[Rakehellion]

If I am walking down the street at night, and a I see a small child maybe 5yo, I will not fear for my life.

Unless he's black, right? http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Control for demographics, drug use, criminal activity, and you get the fact that cop shootings per capita plummet. There is a small section of the population that causes the vast majority of cop issues. Fix that and you'll fix the cop issues.

There is some truth to this, assuming you mean we need to address the growing poverty issue in the us. But I kind of doubt that is what you meant.

 

[realibrad]

Unless he's black, right? http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2014/nov/26/cleveland-video-tamir-rice-shooting-police

Of everything I said in my post, that is the one part you choose to actually make a response to.

No, I would not be afraid of a child no matter their race. The very reason I did not specify the race of the child was because it did not matter to me. It is interesting that you choose to take it there, but that's your deal I guess.

Now, as for your comment saying Blacks are not more violent...can you explain what you mean?

From 1980-2008 Blacks committed 52.5% of all homicides, whites 45.3%. Given the demographics of race in this country, it would be 100% factual to say that blacks commit more murders and more per capita as well. Do you think those stats are biased in any way?

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Of everything I said in my post, that is the one part you choose to actually make a response to.

No, I would not be afraid of a child no matter their race. The very reason I did not specify the race of the child was because it did not matter to me. It is interesting that you choose to take it there, but that's your deal I guess.

Now, as for your comment saying Blacks are not more violent...can you explain what you mean?

From 1980-2008 Blacks committed 52.5% of all homicides, whites 45.3%. Given the demographics of race in this country, it would be 100% factual to say that blacks commit more murders and more per capita as well. Do you think those stats are biased in any way?

African Americans aren't inherently prone to being more violent, at least not by any significant amount. The issue is environmental. If you are concerned about inner city violence, then we have to change that environment.

 

[werepossum]

Not okay to kill, but its far more reasonable for a cop to not give a little when dealing with a group that is more likely to be violent. If I am walking down the street at night, and a I see a small child maybe 5yo, I will not fear for my life. I would wonder what the hell the kid is doing, but not be fearful for my safety. If I were on the same street at night and a large man was walking near me, I would be a lot more afraid. I am in every way stereotyping men when I do this, because not all men will do anything. Most men will not do anything actually.

So when a cop finds himself in a situation where he is dealing with a group that is more likely to be violent, he is going to be far more defensive. That should not excuse a cop from over reacting, but it will mean he would be less likely to de-escalate if it means giving up his safety.

Exactly, and well put. I totally understand this from the cops' point of view. This issue is the basic unfairness to a person who simply happens to be black. To go back to Homer and I, we are both individuals; statistics about crime have nothing to do with us personally. Yet we will be treated differently when cops have to make instant life and death decisions. That is prejudice; we have both been pre-judged based solely on superficial things we can't change. (Also on superficial things we can change, such as clothing and tattoos, but it's the things we can't change that form the basis of society's unfairness.)

This isn't easily changed. One thing that will help is better training. Cops should get the same training as do soldiers and Marines preparing for peacekeeping duty deployment in hostile areas. This should be a periodic requirement too; people do change, skills do get lost. Another thing that should change is police recruiting. An absolute requirement of the job is the willingness to run toward the shooting rather than away. But that isn't the only requirement; there is also a need for restraint, so that after running toward the shooting, the cop doesn't shoot the wrong people. Or for that matter, anyone who doesn't absolutely have to be shot. To effectively do their jobs, police officers are entrusted with deadly force and the presumption (barring evidence to the contrary) of being justified in using it. That is a huge amount of power, and both selection, training, and ongoing monitoring are critical.

I think another thing that would help a huge amount is to get cops out of the cars and onto the sidewalks. Cops cruising by in a black area see only a sea of faces, most (to them) hostile. Same thing with the way the locals see the cops. Get them on foot, talking to the people, interacting with the people, they see them as individuals. This one is hostile, that one is friendly. This one is on drugs, that one is working two jobs and raising his grandchild. This one hates cops and is likely dangerous - but that one over there is his cousin and can talk him down. When you get to know people, even superficially, it's harder to think in terms of us and them rather than as individuals. That applies to both sides equally. When you don't know the cops but you do know the guy they shot, it's harder to admit that it might have been justified.

Bullshit. We've just established that they're arrested more because they're targeted more due to stereotyping.

And even if this were the case, 99% of blacks are not criminals so it's unjust to treat them that way.

I call bullshit on your bullshit. Even where no one is arrested, race is often known. The most common victims of black violence are other black people, and it's just silly to argue that a dozen black people shot/shot at stereotyped a car of white guys committing a drive-by shooting into a car of black guys. Same with home invasions, carjackings, armed robbery, etc.

I completely agree that it's unjust to judge black people on the base of racial statistics. Groups don't commit crimes, individuals do, and individuals are not necessarily in any way similar to people they superficially resemble any more than guys who look like Bernie Madoff are necessarily scam artists looking to steal your life savings. I just don't see how to fix it as long as the underlying statistics don't change. We can however lessen it, with better cops and especially with better training and practices.

More black cops would also probably help. Even black cops assume black men are more likely to be threats than are men of other races. But if an officer (of any race) is riding a squad car every day with a black officer, that has to make him less likely to pre-judge a particular black man as threatening based solely on race.

 

[werepossum]

African Americans aren't inherently prone to being more violent, at least not by any significant amount. The issue is environmental. If you are concerned about inner city violence, then we have to change that environment.

Environmental and cultural. When you don't believe you have a real chance at success within the system, you aren't going to put in much effort to succeed within the system. That virtually guarantees you won't succeed within the system, which merely reinforces your initial belief. And if the deck is stacked against you, the only way to not lose is to break the rules.

 

[realibrad]

African Americans aren't inherently prone to being more violent, at least not by any significant amount. The issue is environmental. If you are concerned about inner city violence, then we have to change that environment.

The environment is partly created by those who live in it. Black culture promotes behavior that influences the violence. Western culture for all of its faults is for the most part non-violent. I don't want to get into a culture debate in their totality, but in terms of violence, whites are less violent. What causes that may be many things, but try criticizing black culture and you will be called a racist.

 

[LegendKiller]

African Americans aren't inherently prone to being more violent, at least not by any significant amount. The issue is environmental. If you are concerned about inner city violence, then we have to change that environment.

Then shut down immigration. That is a huge part of the problem. We have too many lower educated people than we can afford, too many than our economy can support, and too many for the job base we have. We keep importing droves of uneducated immigrants when we are offshoring the only jobs they can take. This has displaced african americans.

We had a 50yr halt on immigration before and wages rose and Americans largely profited in the middle as they were integrated and enriched.

 

[werepossum]

The environment is partly created by those who live in it. Black culture promotes behavior that influences the violence. Western culture for all of its faults is for the most part non-violent. I don't want to get into a culture debate in their totality, but in terms of violence, whites are less violent. What causes that may be many things, but try criticizing black culture and you will be called a racist.

Those are good points, but he said "inherently prone to being more violent". I think that's a reasonable statement. When one corrects for things like socioeconomic status and single parent households, we're all pretty much the same.

We tend to think in terms of black culture and white culture, but in reality most of our culture is common to all of us. Even immigrants who don't speak English tend to pick up a lot of American culture. Jamaicans who bathed on the front porch in Jamaica usually don't do so in America in Compton. Russians who spent winter days in a trench coat and bathing suit waiting for rays of sun so that they can throw wide their coats and soak up some vitamin D probably don't do so in Traverse City. Even when we really don't understand why, we tend to emulate other people around us.