Pledge . . . religious, patriotic, or religious patriotism?

[0roo0roo]

Hmm Baptist minister must have forgot to put under God in the original pledge.

bingo

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: JackStorm

Well, I have read it. But it was quite some time ago. So I might have forgoten some of the details. Feel free to point out where you think I was wrong, paste or link whatever you have to say if you need/want to(since I don't care enough to read the book again). But before you point out whatever you think I was wrong about, know that short of Jesus's own words, I don't really put much faith or validity in the bible or any other "book". Let's put it this way. I belive Jesus _MIGHT_ have been a "prophet" or "savior" whatever you wanna call it, but the rest is just a nice little collection of stories from people who had their own agendas.

Jack, you should check out the Jefferson Bible. My point about the Old Testament would simply be this: It is FILLED with death, destruction, genocide, brutality and all kinds of horrible, violent acts, with 99% of them perpetrated or ordered by GOD. You know, that loving, compassionate guy who likes to drown people by the millions and set their cities on fire?

Jason

The Old Testament is only half the book. The Old Testament was the world before the grace and forgiveness brought by Jesus' death. There are numerous thoughts on the divine purpose of the Old Testament, but, regardless, every Christian denomination agrees that mankind's relationship with God changed with the birth and death of Christ. There is an incredibly powerful image of the curtain in the temple that separated the congregation from the part of the temple where the priests convened with God being torn in half the moment Christ died. It's not that the Old Testament doesn't matter because Jesus himself referred to it numerous times suggesting that its purpose may be allegorical, but nobody knows the complete and true role the Old Testament plays except God.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: JackStorm

Well, I have read it. But it was quite some time ago. So I might have forgoten some of the details. Feel free to point out where you think I was wrong, paste or link whatever you have to say if you need/want to(since I don't care enough to read the book again). But before you point out whatever you think I was wrong about, know that short of Jesus's own words, I don't really put much faith or validity in the bible or any other "book". Let's put it this way. I belive Jesus _MIGHT_ have been a "prophet" or "savior" whatever you wanna call it, but the rest is just a nice little collection of stories from people who had their own agendas.

Jack, you should check out the Jefferson Bible. My point about the Old Testament would simply be this: It is FILLED with death, destruction, genocide, brutality and all kinds of horrible, violent acts, with 99% of them perpetrated or ordered by GOD. You know, that loving, compassionate guy who likes to drown people by the millions and set their cities on fire?

Jason

The Old Testament is only half the book. The Old Testament was the world before the grace and forgiveness brought by Jesus' death. There are numerous thoughts on the divine purpose of the Old Testament, but, regardless, every Christian denomination agrees that mankind's relationship with God changed with the birth and death of Christ. There is an incredibly powerful image of the curtain in the temple that separated the congregation from the part of the temple where the priests convened with God being torn in half the moment Christ died. It's not that the Old Testament doesn't matter because Jesus himself referred to it numerous times suggesting that its purpose may be allegorical, but nobody knows the complete and true role the Old Testament plays except God.

It would definately take a lot of faith to believe that baloney!

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Oh yeah, and killing the babies of his chosen peoples enemies (the whole Moses/Egypt thing). Yeah, It's all comming back to me now. But that's the thing. I have problems beliving that the god who Jesus spoke of is the same as the one in the old Testament. Granted, I'll most likely get flamed for saying this by the bible fanatics, but compare Jesus words about his god and his ways, to the one in the old Testament and you'll start to wonder if god might have some sorta personaly disorder. You know, nasty and vengeful one day and then suddenly warm and fuzzy and giving up his son for humanity the next. I never liked the god of the old Testament. But that's just me, as you pointed out, he was a vengeful SOB, I won't deny that.

Makes you wonder what in the *hell* people were thinking when they decided the old testament and the new testament *belong* together. Also gives you a little more insight on why those people in the middle east are so hell-bent on such violent expressions of their religion: the part they *Accept* is the Old Testament chunk. Yikes.

Jason

EDIT: You can buy the Jefferson Bible at Amazon for about $11

 

[JackStorm]

heh, I often wondered that myself. The dramatic personality change and change in messages from god was so dramatic I just said to myself "ah to hell with trying to understand the logic behind this religion" and lo and behold I was a christian no more.

And thanks for pointing to a cheap place to buy the bible, but I'm sure I can dig my old one up from the basement where I left it ages ago, if I feel like reading it again

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

You already have the Jefferson edition? It's a very cool version. In the early 1800's (around 1804, as I recall, with a more concerted effort toward the 1820's) Jefferson went through the Bible in 4 languages, chopping out contradictions, errors and idiocy like the Virgin birth, resurrection, other supernatural nonsense, etc. What he ended up with was what he called "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," and it's a much easier to understand collection of Jesus' teachings. It shows, if nothing else, that the man was an interesting philosopher of the time (though hardly original; most of what Jesus taught outside of his supernatural nonsense had been discussed --and in greater detail -- by Aristotle, nearly 500 years before

Jason