Pledge . . . religious, patriotic, or religious patriotism?

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
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Bushies are confused

WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration defended two words in the Pledge of Allegiance -- "under God" -- in asking the Supreme Court to declare the daily recitation constitutional. "Reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is a patriotic exercise, not a religious testimonial," the administration said.
The government also questioned Newdow's right to bring the suit. The brief said that Newdow, who does not have custody of his daughter, does not have the authority to solely decide his child's religious upbringing.
 
May 16, 2000
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Like this administrations zealotous bigotry has EVER been in question...or their hypocrisy and double standards. Of course, the only real difference between this administration and most of the previous ones is these guys are just worse at covering up their BS.

ALL references to religion in pledges/etc should be covered by the OPTION of adding 'so help me god' at the end. Solves EVERYTHING.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: SillyMan
under god is a generic term and doesn't point to a specific religion
under gods is more generic. Under god doesn't cover for example Hindus
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
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The inclusion of those words in the Pledge is a legacy to dark times in American history.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
 
Dec 27, 2001
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
The inclusion of those words in the Pledge is a legacy to dark times in American history.
I know...the nightmare of Leave It To Beaver. *shudders sarcastically*
 
Feb 3, 2001
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You might have a point --if a) the founding fathers had had *anything* to do with In God We Trust being put on our coins, or if, indeed they had been Christians. Certainly there *were* Christians among the men at the Constitutional Convention (the most important being John Adams, who was firmly *against* the union of church and state) but the most important men to our founding, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, were *NOT* Christians. Jefferson was a Deist, who believed in the existence of God but didn't believe in the Christian teaching of God. Nor did he believe that Jesus was teh messiah, though he did believe that Jesus was a great moral teacher. He wrote that "The teachings of Jesus in the [New Testament] are as diamonds in what is otherwise a pile of dung." James Madison, who authored the Bill of Rights, was not a Christian and, in fact, many scholars believe he may have been a broom-closet Atheist. In any case, ALL of these men, Adams, Jefferson and Madison, were firmly in favor of separation of Church and State.

As for those words on the currency, "In God We Trust" first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin, but then disappeared for another 40odd years. It has been used continuously on the one-cent coin only since 1909, and on dimes since 1916. Since July 1, 1908,"In God We Trust" has also been stamped on gold coins, silver dollars, quarters and half-dollar coins

So to claim that it has anything to do with the Founding Fathers is a dream at best, a lie at it's face.

Personally I don't care if it's on there or not, because it does have an important anti-religious effect: Those words have now become so commonplace and expected that they have lost their meaning, much as the church itself has for the American people.

Jason
 

SillyMan

Senior member
Jan 25, 2001
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hahahaha what planet have you been living on
all through history people have have been trying to force christianity onto others
any religion should be CHOOSEN by an adult without ANY cohersion
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.

 
Feb 3, 2001
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Ummm...OK. I think it's fairly common knowledge that the wacky extremists of various religions have tried to force their beliefs on others. You're right: Religious belief should be consciously CHOSEN by an adult who has studied the various systems of belief, as well as philosophy in general, and reached their own conclusions. Unfortunately we don't get an education in any of these disciplines in the public school system because we're too busy with Social Studies and sensitivity training.

Jason

EDIT to EagleKeeper: It's true that Christianity hasn't been *forced* on anyone in the US, but it's not true that no one has been hurt or murdered in the name of Christianity. It happens more frequently than I feel happy about, and in the time of the Crusades it happened so much as to make Adolph Hitler's holocaust seem like a schoolyard brawl in comparison.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
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DragonMaster. You're doomed to disappointment if you think education comes from public schools.
 

TheBDB

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2002
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"The reference to a `nation under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance is an official and patriotic acknowledgment of what all students -- Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or atheist -- may properly be taught in the public schools," the administration argued in its 63-page filing.
This sounds to me like they are saying students should be taught in school that there is a god.
 

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
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I was about 9 when the 'Under God' was inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance.
It was under Eisenhower in 1954 as a nod to Religeous Conservatism of the time.
==============================================================
Pledge of Allegiance changed in 1954
It was the 1950s. The Korean War. And the cold war was an issue in national politics.
People and politicians were looking for ways to distinguish God-fearing Americans from those Atheistic Communists in Russia.
On April 22, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Roman Catholic men's group, the Knights of Columbus,
mounted a campaign to add the words "under God," after the words "one nation," in the Pledge.
Some 15 resolutions were sent before Congress to change the Pledge.
But none passed until President Eisenhower happened to hear a sermon by Rev. George Docherty on 7 February 1954.
===================================================================
Confusing to young kids who after many years had to learn a new concept in their pledge.
Kids stumbled over the recitation for years.
 
Feb 3, 2001
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LOL, Whitling you are *absolutely* right ;) I'll say that it SHOULD come from the public schools, we pay for it richly, we're just not getting it. That's a good reason to privatize the school system; when private industries fail to deliver, they end up going out of business ;)

Jason
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
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It is REALLY annoying to be taught fairy tales by moronic adults as if they were fact. Stop the brainwashing!
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Way to shout it from the mountain. I'd beg to differ on a few points, however:

Conflict (Religions Involved)
-----------------------------------
Bosnia (Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic, Muslims)
East Timor (Christians & Muslims)
Kosovo (Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims)
Kurdistan (Christians, Muslims)
Macedonia (Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims)
Nigeria (Christians, Animists, & Muslims)
Northern Ireland (Protestants, Catholics)
Chechnya (Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims)
Sudan (Animists, Christians & Muslims)

Just a few from our planet's recent history. Don't make me go back a few centuries. ;) Seriously, Christianity has been involved in some of our planet's major hotspots in the last decade. Other religions too, of course, are to blame, but don't tell me that Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. How many have died or been injured in just the few conflicts I've already mentioned?
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
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DragonMaster, you say, "That's a good reason to privatize the school system; when private industries fail to deliver, they end up going out of business."

Going out of business like Chrysler ($4 billion loan), Harley-Davidson (prohibitive tax on import of large bore motorcycles), the steel industry (too much protection to mention, the last of which is on its way out for now), the farmers with price supports, and Boeing? Those few, proud, conservatives don't recognize this as welfare, but the U.S. (and all other industrial countries of which I know) is rife with it
 
Feb 3, 2001
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You're right, Whitling, I should have prefaced my statement with "In a Free Market Economy" businesses that fail to deliver will go out of business. Nice point-out on the number of government bailouts of large businesses (and they do it with small businesses as well, but the $$ is less obvious...) going on, *especially* under Conservative government. The only difference in the welfare plans of modern Conservatives and Liberals appears to be the beneficiaries. I'd prefer they just cut ALL of it out ;)

Jason
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Umm, Blue laws? Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage . . . I guess that's based on the rampant spread of chlamydia amongst lesbians.

I do agree that American Christians ceased to be practicing Christians a long time ago. I vehemently disagree that Christianity represents morality (or your implied reference to good morals). It represents a tradition of shifting morality much like the shifting morality of many other religious groups. But unlike your protestations a more accurate depiction of Christianity in modern America is a political force of the opportunistic. Miscegenation between church and state to produce "faith-based" funding of ineffective programs. Miscegenation between church and state to codify discrimination (Salvation Army).

Lieberman wears Judaism like a badge of honor . . . while conservative Christians (GOP) flock to his defense and hail all actions by Sharon/Likud . . . then they go home and pray to God that Lieberman (in fact, all Jews) see the fallacy of their ways before God condemns them to eternal damnation.

I think our coinage is OK b/c nobody really cares. But the indoctrination of children should stop. Personally, I'm opposed to pledges particularly when they have been rendered meaningless . . .

I pledge Allegiance to the Flag (technically a Christian no no) of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands . . . one Nation . . . in divisible (Election 2000) with Liberty and Justice for All (except enemy combatants, accused criminals without private represenation, and anyone without a lobby).

:music:My country tis of thee . . . sweet land of liberty . . . :music:

My problem is we are forced to learn and recite before we have any notion of what it means . . . and what it doesn't mean.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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The pledge is forced patriotism. Think about this instead -- wouldn't our children's patriotism be all that much stronger and more true if it came naturally? Derived from true pride in and respect for our nation and what we stand for rather than from some forced effort?
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
I'm assuming your error is in the inability to separate people calling themselves Christians from Christianity.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Think about this instead -- wouldn't our children's patriotism be all that much stronger and more true if it came naturally? Derived from true pride in and respect for our nation and what we stand for rather than from some forced effort?
States are gradually (sometimes precipitously) phasing out history/social studies b/c . . . well there's no high stakes accountability testing for it. I guess we will have to rely on the home environment where some consider JFK and Black Hawk Down historically accurate while others still simmer about the War of Northern Aggression.

very brief history of the pledge
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Hmm Baptist minister must have forgot to put under God in the original pledge.


In 1892 Francis Bellamy was also a chairman of a committee of state superintendents of education in the National Education Association. As its chairman, he prepared the program for the public schools' quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day in 1892. He structured this public school program around a flag raising ceremony and a flag salute - his 'Pledge of Allegiance.'
 

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