Pledge . . . religious, patriotic, or religious patriotism?

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JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
I'm assuming your error is in the inability to separate people calling themselves Christians from Christianity.
Of course, those weren't TRUE Christians like yourself. Those were OTHER people. Do you Christians get together and use the same excuses?

 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The pledge is forced patriotism. Think about this instead -- wouldn't our children's patriotism be all that much stronger and more true if it came naturally? Derived from true pride in and respect for our nation and what we stand for rather than from some forced effort?
Exactly...anarchy. It would be much better than forcing 'American' beliefs on people simply because they're born in America.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
The inclusion of those words in the Pledge is a legacy to dark times in American history.
I know...the nightmare of Leave It To Beaver. *shudders sarcastically*
No the Nightmare of the Red Scare and the Witch Hunts by Senator "Tailgunner" Joe McCarthy and his henchmen like Roy Cohn and Robert Kennedy

 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
I'm assuming your error is in the inability to separate people calling themselves Christians from Christianity.
Of course, those weren't TRUE Christians like yourself. Those were OTHER people. Do you Christians get together and use the same excuses?
Where does your hostility towards Christianity come from? It hasn't affected you negativly a single bit.

How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.

Is this seriously such a difficult concept to grasp? Do you have similar hatred for all other religeons? Just curious on the last two.
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.
Last I heard . . . God told Bush to "fix" Iraq . . . by any means necessary. Apparently Commandment #5 has a footnote that only militant, Christian Presidents and their foot soldiers can read.

power of prayer
Robertson claims to have used the power of prayer to steer hurricanes away from his Virginia Beach, Virginia headquarters. He took credit for steering the course in 1985 of Hurricane Gloria, which caused millions of dollars of destruction in many states along the east coast. He made a similar claim about another destructive storm, Hurricane Felix, in 1995.
In various episodes of his 700 Club program during the months of June and July 2003, Robertson repeatedly supported Liberian President Charles Taylor. Robertson accuses the U.S. State Department of giving President Bush bad advice, and of trying "as hard as they can to destabilize Liberia". Robertson has also failed to mention in his broadcasts his $8 million investment in a Liberian gold mine. Taylor has been (and had been at the time of Robertson's support) indicted by the United Nations for war crimes. Freedom Gold, the Liberian gold mine was intended to help pay for humanitarian and evangelical efforts in Liberia, according to Robertson.
In Robertsons own words . . . Christian aggression is different from Muslim aggression.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
Hero, are you joking? How has Christianity ever killed someone?

Can you spell "inquisition?"
Can you spell "crusades?"
Can you spell "Salem witch trials?"
Can you spell "pogrom?"

EDITED: I forgot to inquire about the 200 years of religious war in Europe when one brand of Christians routinely killed another brand.

IMHO, it's a cop out to say that "Christianity" never killed anyone. You may be literally correct, but the agents of Christianity have sure done one hell of a job on death control. If Christianity never killed anyone, neither did Islam.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: Whitling
Hero, are you joking? How has Christianity ever killed someone?

Can you spell "inquisition?"
Can you spell "crusades?"
Can you spell "Salem witch trials?"
Can you spell "pogrom?"
Again...those were institutions which called themselves Christian which were doing those malicious things for the same self-serving reasons anybody not calling themselves a Christian would do them. How can you say people who are acting in opposition to the Bible, are acting on behalf of Christianity, because they say they are?

And the question remains. How has Christianity negativly affected you? The fact is, that it can't. Christians, not following the ways of Christianity can affect you negativly, but Christianity can never because there's no instruction in the Bible that harms anybody.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: Whitling
IMHO, it's a cop out to say that "Christianity" never killed anyone. You may be literally correct, but the agents of Christianity have sure done one hell of a job on death control. If Christianity never killed anyone, neither did Islam.
I don't know enough about the Koran to speak about it in an educated manner, but, my personal feeling from what I do know and from studies on Middle East society is that Islam is the same in that some Islamic people act out their malicious intentions under the veil of Islam and that Islam itself isn't to blame. Any Christian churches who condoned violence or persecution are in the same boat as Islamic clerics or states that call for violence and hatred.
 

SillyMan

Senior member
Jan 25, 2001
295
0
0
I agree that people use religion for their own purposes ( killing and stirring hate of others )and the religion itself may not be bad.
BUT the people who claim to be religious and don't stand up and proclaim that what is being done in the name of their religion is wrong
and that don't do everything in their power to stop it
are partly as guilty as the people doing the killing and stirring the hate in their religions name
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
I'm assuming your error is in the inability to separate people calling themselves Christians from Christianity.
Of course, those weren't TRUE Christians like yourself. Those were OTHER people. Do you Christians get together and use the same excuses?
Where does your hostility towards Christianity come from? It hasn't affected you negativly a single bit.

How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.

Is this seriously such a difficult concept to grasp? Do you have similar hatred for all other religeons? Just curious on the last two.
Where does my hatred come from? Let's see, let's turns things around here. How about everywhere you turn, people want to tell you how the Toothfairy will save you, and all you have to do is follow these rules of the Toothfairy. How about on your money you have "In the Tootfairy we trust." How about people constantly trying to get the Toothfairy prayer put back into schools so your children can listen to the other insane people worship the Tootfairy. How about everywhere you turn people are lying to your kids about how the Tootfairy and his twelve freinds got together and wrote a book about how much magic the Tootfairy had hundred of years ago, yet no magic tricks are done today. Shall I go on? Take yourself out of the little box you live in and see what others view you as.

And why do I know the Bible better than Christains?
How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.
Hmmm, the Bible says not to kill?
Matthew 15:4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Hmmm, that sounds like killing to me. Now be a good Christian and go kill your kids if they curse you. ;)

 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
0
0
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

I don't know enough about the Koran to speak about it in an educated manner, but, my personal feeling from what I do know and from studies on Middle East society is that Islam is the same in that some Islamic people act out their malicious intentions under the veil of Islam and that Islam itself isn't to blame. Any Christian churches who condoned violence or persecution are in the same boat as Islamic clerics or states that call for violence and hatred.
Indeed. That has been one of the biggest problems throughout history. Religions always get hijacked by fanatics. Neither Christianity nor Islam condone violance. But people will always corrupt any and all religions. Doesn't matter how many "saviors" or "prophets" we get, humankind always turns to violance in the end.

heh...when I think about it. Judas was most likely Christianities first fanatic. He never actuly listened to Jesus's words or atlest not the meaning of the words. He just wanted Jesus to destroy the Roman's. Poor guy was confused, he didn't realize that the god jesus spoke of was a god of compassion, not destruction. :p
 
Feb 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: JackStorm Poor guy was confused, he didn't realize that the god jesus spoke of was a god of compassion, not destruction. :p


You might want to read this little book called "The Old Testament" if you really believe what you just said.

Jason
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,872
4,216
126
Well, BBD I do have a bit of an issue on this.

Quote

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The government also questioned Newdow's right to bring the suit. The brief said that Newdow, who does not have custody of his daughter, does not have the authority to solely decide his child's religious upbringing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The daughter DID NOT WANT her father to do this. She has objected to him using her for his agenda. I agree with her. He does not have custody. It is against her wishes. If someone wants to contest it, be my guest, but not by this sleazy route.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
They should restore the original pledge. A pledge should be universal to all Americans, and you shouldn't have to acknowledge a God to pledge allegience to the flag of your own country.
To put "under God" which divides people into believers and nonbelievers, right before "indivisible" is very ironic.
 
May 16, 2000
13,526
0
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Like I said, put it at the end, and make it optional. Just like it is for oaths of enlistment, some oaths of office, etc.

I pledge allegience to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all (<--- original pledge up to this point), so help me God.

I'm telling you, make it optional, at the end of the originals, and everything works out for everybody. As for the money, hell it IS our God so I can't believe actual Christians argue to keep it on their...seems like sacriledge to me. But oh well...I'll just keep black magic markering every bill I ever get. Keeps me busy, amuses me, makes a good point...overall a worthy pasttime.
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex


You might want to read this little book called "The Old Testament" if you really believe what you just said.

Jason
Well, I have read it. But it was quite some time ago. So I might have forgoten some of the details. Feel free to point out where you think I was wrong, paste or link whatever you have to say if you need/want to(since I don't care enough to read the book again). But before you point out whatever you think I was wrong about, know that short of Jesus's own words, I don't really put much faith or validity in the bible or any other "book". Let's put it this way. I belive Jesus _MIGHT_ have been a "prophet" or "savior" whatever you wanna call it, but the rest is just a nice little collection of stories from people who had their own agendas.
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
They should restore the original pledge. A pledge should be universal to all Americans, and you shouldn't have to acknowledge a God to pledge allegience to the flag of your own country.
To put "under God" which divides people into believers and nonbelievers, right before "indivisible" is very ironic.
heh, ironic indeed.
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
1
0
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: JackBurton
Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Need to change our currency also.
And reprint the history books to say the Puritans were looking for a place to practice volleyball and say it was their firm belief in tolerance of the profane and degenerative that made America great.

I do not want to live in a country that forces religeon on people...nobody does...that's the Taliban. I DO however, believe that the acknowledgement of the beliefs that strengthened our forefathers and aided them in making this the greatest country on earth cannot be a bad thing even if it's only token. You may not be a Christian, but no Christian belief harms you in any way and the morality of even that token visage could only help the country at best and do nothing at worst.

Christianity doesn't hurt anybody. It is not, nor has it ever been, nor will it ever be forced on anybody in this country...Christianity, in fact, CANNOT be forced on anybody or it ceases to be Christianity. But its acknowledgement may just give us a reminder that morality is a good thing...not a required thing...just a good thing.
Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
I'm assuming your error is in the inability to separate people calling themselves Christians from Christianity.
Of course, those weren't TRUE Christians like yourself. Those were OTHER people. Do you Christians get together and use the same excuses?
Where does your hostility towards Christianity come from? It hasn't affected you negativly a single bit.

How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.

Is this seriously such a difficult concept to grasp? Do you have similar hatred for all other religeons? Just curious on the last two.
Where does my hatred come from? Let's see, let's turns things around here. How about everywhere you turn, people want to tell you how the Toothfairy will save you, and all you have to do is follow these rules of the Toothfairy. How about on your money you have "In the Tootfairy we trust." How about people constantly trying to get the Toothfairy prayer put back into schools so your children can listen to the other insane people worship the Tootfairy. How about everywhere you turn people are lying to your kids about how the Tootfairy and his twelve freinds got together and wrote a book about how much magic the Tootfairy had hundred of years ago, yet no magic tricks are done today. Shall I go on? Take yourself out of the little box you live in and see what others view you as.
Would depend on what the toothfairy wanted and did and also whether or not faith in the toothfairy has been a strenthening force for the building of our nation. I still wouldn't believe in the toothfairy, but if it was harmless and most people believed in the toothfairy then I'd have no problem.
And why do I know the Bible better than Christains?
How has Christianity, which epxlicitly says not to kill, ever killed anyone? Somebody can call themselves a Christian and maybe be right and still do bad things...but they aren't doing them for "Christianity" they're doing those bad things for the same reasons anybody else would do those things.
Hmmm, the Bible says not to kill?
Matthew 15:4
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Hmmm, that sounds like killing to me. Now be a good Christian and go kill your kids if they curse you. ;)
You don't. ;) You quoted Jesus quoting God's commandments to the Jews in Exodus. I'm sure you knew that though since you know the Bible better than me. Here's that scripture in context.

MT 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
MT 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
MT 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
MT 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
MT 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
MT 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Makes more sense when you read it in context doesn't it? He was basically just pointing them out as hypocrits which is what he calls them in verse 7. As everybody who's read the entire New Testament--as you obviously must have to make such a brash statement--knows we are no longer subject to ancient Jewish law. The Old Testament has the Jews killing all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons...but, as I'm sure you know, Christ came to die and offer spiritual freedom and life for all...not just the chosen people. I'll be happy to explain any other verses you find that conern you through PMs but I suggest to read, or reread, the entire chapter and see if the verse makes more sense before posting. ;)
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
1,013
126
Pledge . . . religious, patriotic, or religious patriotism?
Take it out or leave it in, i really don't care. Please do keep on fighting though, every moment your types keep on arguing about banalities like this is one less moment your liberal or conservative collegues can spend dreaming up ways to put your stupid whackjob ideas into place.
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
You don't. You quoted Jesus quoting God's commandments to the Jews in Exodus. I'm sure you knew that though since you know the Bible better than me. Here's that scripture in context.
Makes more sense when you read it in context doesn't it? He was basically just pointing them out as hypocrits which is what he calls them in verse 7. As everybody who's read the entire New Testament--as you obviously must have to make such a brash statement--knows we are no longer subject to ancient Jewish law. The Old Testament has the Jews killing all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons...but, as I'm sure you know, Christ came to die and offer spiritual freedom and life for all...not just the chosen people. I'll be happy to explain any other verses you find that conern you through PMs but I suggest to read, or reread, the entire chapter and see if the verse makes more sense before posting.
So you are saying the Old Testament doesn't count? And you are saying Jesus is right and God is wrong?
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
0
The daughter DID NOT WANT her father to do this. She has objected to him using her for his agenda. I agree with her. He does not have custody. It is against her wishes. If someone wants to contest it, be my guest, but not by this sleazy route.
Admittedly, that's quite true and I agree. But I would hate for this issue (our freedom to practice or not practice religion) to fizzle on a legal technicality. There was nothing wrong with the Pledge before 1950. Arguably it's a useful form of early indoctrination of children . . . plus it's a jump start on the verbal skills . . . despite the poor syntax.

No one is arguing America does not have monotheistic roots . . . of course no one argues America did not have racist, sexist, class-biased roots as well. In a country that makes little attempt to provide children with a holistic view of American history . . . why bother with the propaganda of the Pledge?

So you are saying the Old Testament doesn't count? And you are saying Jesus is right and God is wrong?
Although it's quite a contentious issue even amongst early Christianity scholars . . . some do believe Jesus delivered a "new Covenant" . . . making that which came before irrelevant or certainly less important. Others say Jesus was a Jew who fulfilled the prophecy of the Old Testament.
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
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Originally posted by: JackStorm

Well, I have read it. But it was quite some time ago. So I might have forgoten some of the details. Feel free to point out where you think I was wrong, paste or link whatever you have to say if you need/want to(since I don't care enough to read the book again). But before you point out whatever you think I was wrong about, know that short of Jesus's own words, I don't really put much faith or validity in the bible or any other "book". Let's put it this way. I belive Jesus _MIGHT_ have been a "prophet" or "savior" whatever you wanna call it, but the rest is just a nice little collection of stories from people who had their own agendas.


Jack, you should check out the Jefferson Bible. My point about the Old Testament would simply be this: It is FILLED with death, destruction, genocide, brutality and all kinds of horrible, violent acts, with 99% of them perpetrated or ordered by GOD. You know, that loving, compassionate guy who likes to drown people by the millions and set their cities on fire? :)

Jason
 

JackStorm

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2003
1,216
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: JackStorm

Well, I have read it. But it was quite some time ago. So I might have forgoten some of the details. Feel free to point out where you think I was wrong, paste or link whatever you have to say if you need/want to(since I don't care enough to read the book again). But before you point out whatever you think I was wrong about, know that short of Jesus's own words, I don't really put much faith or validity in the bible or any other "book". Let's put it this way. I belive Jesus _MIGHT_ have been a "prophet" or "savior" whatever you wanna call it, but the rest is just a nice little collection of stories from people who had their own agendas.
Jack, you should check out the Jefferson Bible. My point about the Old Testament would simply be this: It is FILLED with death, destruction, genocide, brutality and all kinds of horrible, violent acts, with 99% of them perpetrated or ordered by GOD. You know, that loving, compassionate guy who likes to drown people by the millions and set their cities on fire? :)

Jason
Oh yeah, and killing the babies of his chosen peoples enemies (the whole Moses/Egypt thing). Yeah, It's all comming back to me now. But that's the thing. I have problems beliving that the god who Jesus spoke of is the same as the one in the old Testament. Granted, I'll most likely get flamed for saying this by the bible fanatics, but compare Jesus words about his god and his ways, to the one in the old Testament and you'll start to wonder if god might have some sorta personaly disorder. You know, nasty and vengeful one day and then suddenly warm and fuzzy and giving up his son for humanity the next. I never liked the god of the old Testament. But that's just me, as you pointed out, he was a vengeful SOB, I won't deny that.
 

Bitdog

Member
Dec 3, 2003
143
0
0
My favorite post are:

SillyMan:
hahahaha what planet have you been living on
all through history people have have been trying to force christianity onto others
any religion should be CHOOSEN by an adult without ANY cohersion

JackBurton:
It is REALLY annoying to be taught fairy tales by moronic adults as if they were fact. Stop the brainwashing!

BaliBabyDoc:
the indoctrination of children should stop.
My problem is we are forced to learn and recite before we have any notion of what it means . . . and what it doesn't mean.

DealMonkey:
The pledge is forced patriotism. Think about this instead -- wouldn't our children's patriotism be all that much stronger
and more true if it came naturally? Derived from true pride in and respect for our nation and what we stand for rather than from some forced effort?

JackBurton:
Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone. Are you fvcking out of your mind? Do you know how many people in history have been KILLED in the name of God (Christian God)? Homosexuals have been shund, people speaking against God have been put to death, Native American were given the ultimatum to FIND God (Christian God) or be killed, doctors performing legal abortions have been killed in the name of God, shall I go on? But, hey Christianity never hurt anyone.
No thank you. I don't believe in invisible magic people that live in the clouds.

JackBurton:?
Where does my hatred come from? Let's see, let's turns things around here. How about everywhere you turn, people want to tell you how the Toothfairy will save you, and all you have to do is follow these rules of the Toothfairy. How about on your money you have "In the Tootfairy we trust." How about people constantly trying to get the Toothfairy prayer put back into schools so your children can listen to the other insane people worship the Tootfairy. How about everywhere you turn people are lying to your kids about how the Tootfairy and his twelve freinds got together and wrote a book about how much magic the Tootfairy had hundred of years ago, yet no magic tricks are done today. Shall I go on? Take yourself out of the little box you live in and see what others view you as.

PrinceofWands:
Like I said, put it at the end, and make it optional. Just like it is for oaths of enlistment, some oaths of office, etc.
Just think how stupid the average person is. Then realize 50% of the people are stupider than that guy. - George Carlin


-------------------------
ME:
Optional sounds like a workable compromise. But religious people don't appear to think it is.
I believe it's illegal to make a contract with a minor, let alone a life time contract, like a pledge of aledgence.
In the 7th grade they made us fill out social security cards, took our money for 40 years, spent it all and more,
and now they've left us billions in debt. There is no money in reserve for actual social security. And Bush #2 is
spending money like it grows on trees, or he can just print up some more, or doesn't care about running out kids
into debt before they even get their first job, like Regan and Bush #1 before him did.
History has proven that when religions have armys they kill each other. That is the foundation of middle east turmoil.
When we got Bush #2 the religious president, he didn't hesitate to lie and get in there with our army fighting on the
side of his god. Iraq was supporting Palisine freedom fighters & suicide bombers. The reason why people take the law
into their own hands is because the justice system that is in power does not deliver justice.
I believe that world war over religion will go on for years, and that is one very powerfull reason to believe religion is not a good thing. Why can't you be a good person with out believeing in the ToothFerry or magic invisible people living the the clouds ? Reality is not faith based. Bush the faith man has made many a horrendous error. One of his tactics
is to put as head of departments people who don't believe in the mission but believe in the opposite. Like putting
an industialist as head of the environment.
Any way, since religion is a personal relationship between a person and their god, any religious person who groups,
involves money, begs for money, trys to influence government, trys to remove rights from other based on self imposed
moralities they can't even obey, & the rest of the perfect world movement inhumanities
needs to stay home & keep their lying mouth shut.


The reptilian aliens said that when they first visited earth the planet was sterile,
they dumped their toilet tank, the process of evolution began, and here we are.

 

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