Planner of 9/11 attacks waterboarded 183 times-NYT

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: Craig234

The definition I've adopted is not to use any techniques causing suffering or disability which are designed to disable or overcome the person's ability to resist.

That leaves many options - building sympathy or trust, verbal pressure, threats of incarceration, relatively minor suffering - but short of measures designed to cause so much harm or suffering that the person wants to resist, but is unable to because of the suffering or disability.

But isnt that also a slippery slope? How do you define the level of harm a person would want to resist when that could be different for everyone. We will also need to define what suffering is. Is this just physical suffering or also mental suffering? This is a huge gray area. How should this be defined and who should be defining it on a regular basis in order to adapt new forms of interrogation.

Im interested in fleshing this out becuase I personally cant bring myself to make a clear definition. Yes there should be limits, but when you really get down to it, where does one end and the other begins. The closer you get to that line on either side, the grayer it gets.

 

[her209]

Do you guys think captured US personnel will now be more susceptible to waterboard by their captors?

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: her209
Do you guys think captured US personnel will now be more susceptible to waterboard by their captors?

Thats a hard question to answer. My feeling is that it wont simply becuase rarely are these other countries going to really follow the rules. I would not be suprised if waterboarding and alot worse are going on in other countries. Heck, we know for a fact that most terrorist groups already do alot worse to US personel.

Even if we were to avoid interrogation completely, that wouldnt stop other groups from doing it to us.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: her209
Do you guys think captured US personnel will now be more susceptible to waterboard by their captors?

1. Very possibly, if the enemy country that captures them is looking for some form of legitimacy in their "interrogations", what better way than to claim, "hey, this is how the US got its answers out of people"?

2. It doesn't matter. Most countries that hate the US would probably torture or kill our soldiers anyway, and the terrorist groups would cut their heads off regardless of how nicely we treated their detainees. The relevant point is that we do not and should not set our baseline for how we treat captives based on how Al Qaeda treats captives. "At least we're better than Al Qaeda" is a weak ass statement.

 

[brencat]

It seems many of you feel that the U.S. should take the moral high ground, as if our enemies will suddenly treat us similarly and our captured citizens/soldiers more humanly. Similarly, from other comments in this thread, many of you also believe the U.S. should simply accept massive collateral and or human losses to protect our moral standing. I believe you are dead wrong. All we did by taking a more aggressive stance in the aftermath of 9/11 is level the playing field a bit IMO. We didn't get to be top dog in the world by being passive, and war is dirty business. And of course, if I were in the military and facing capture, the thought of being interrogated harshly is always a possibility.

So of course, I have no problem with us having waterboarded the heck out of this heaping pile of dog sh*t.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it

The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.

What fucking difference does it make if it works or doesn't work?
The fact is it's inhumane and it's torture.
It goes against everything America stands for.

It is a horrible practice and no good will come of it.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: brencat
It seems many of you feel that the U.S. should take the moral high ground, as if our enemies will suddenly treat us similarly and our captured citizens/soldiers more humanly.

nice strawman there. who said that?

Similarly, from other comments in this thread, many of you also believe the U.S. should simply accept massive colateral and or human losses to protect our moral standing

False choice.

All we did by taking a more aggressive stance in the aftermath of 9/11 is level the playing field a bit IMO.

By turning world sympathy into world condemnation. Bravo.

I have no problem with us having waterboarded the heck out of this heaping pile of dog sh*t.

Yeah, what's the rule of law matter anyway? We should also torture kidnappers and murderers, at least they get a trial.

And forget that people under torture say anything, true, false, whatever, to get it to stop. Yeah, lets sacrifice our moral high ground to satisfy a desire for revenge. Terrific.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it

The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.

it worked so well, that they had to do it 183 times?

if it worked, shouldn't they have to do it less?

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
Okay for John McCain to have been tortured?

Apparently the people who captured him thought he did which is why they held and tortured him.

But then again, we were involved in a war, whereas this asshole planned the deaths of thousands of civilians in a cowardly slaughter. I would have no issues if they waterboarded him, his entire family, and all of his co conspirators and then killed them all.

first of all, thas for a court of law to decide, and second, torturing his family would be extremely unjust.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: cubby1223
Or maybe it *does* work and that's why they kept at it

The only thing I know is I will never trust the New York Times to provide an unbiased report on this subject.

it worked so well, that they had to do it 183 times?

if it worked, shouldn't they have to do it less?

and the CIA repeatedly lied about it. 35 seconds my ass. Doesn't seem to bother pro-torture proponents either. You'd think those most likely to support such actions would be concerned about the secret actions of a shadowy government organization straight out of 1984, but no, they're more concerned with the 3% tax hike on the richest americans as an unholy use of gov't power :roll:

 

[miketheidiot]

on top of it, as far as getting information goes, torture doesn't work.

 

[ProfJohn]

Cheney is calling for the CIA to declassify reports that detail what we learned via waterboarding.

This should be interesting. We have a lot of people making claims about how torture doesn't work, but none of them really know what we did or didn't learn via waterboarding.

Perhaps we should wait for the whole story to come out...
Cheney

?One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn't put out the memos that showed the success of the effort. And there are reports that show specifically what we gained as a result of this activity. They have not been declassified.?

?I formally asked that they be declassified now. I haven't announced this up until now, I haven't talked about it, but I know specifically of reports that I read, that I saw that lay out what we learned through the interrogation process and what the consequences were for the country.?

?And I've now formally asked the CIA to take steps to declassify those memos so we can lay them out there and the American people have a chance to see what we obtained and what we learned and how good the intelligence was, as well as to see this debate over the legal opinions.?

 

[trooper11]

Originally posted by: jonks
and the CIA repeatedly lied about it. 35 seconds my ass. Doesn't seem to bother pro-torture proponents either. You'd think those most likely to support such actions would be concerned about the secret actions of a shadowy government organization straight out of 1984, but no, they're more concerned with the 3% tax hike on the richest americans as an unholy use of gov't power :roll:

wether I agree with the treatment or not, I would point out that there is also goign to be secrets we know nothing about. That will never change, there will always be secret plans being carried out about a varies number of things. Most people either choose to live and not worry about it, or become so obssessed that they start seeing conspiracies everywhere.


oh and it is possible to be concerned about both at the same time. but lets be realistic here, what can we the people change/have a say in more easily? Taxes or secret government actions that are nto known to us until after the fact?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Cheney is calling out the Messiah.. if you are going to release the memos then release the results.. Lets imagine that the results of some of the waterboarding was that an attempt on Obama's life may have been averted. THEN what would the liberals do?

 

[brencat]

Originally posted by: jonks
Yeah, lets sacrifice our moral high ground to satisfy a desire for revenge. Terrific.

Here's a clue...no one gives a shit about our moral high ground. That's your own problem. Countries do/should look out for their own best interests, and the U.S. is no different in that regard. It's not about revenge, it's about not getting walked on based on some bullshit ideology that we're "above" it because we're the great perfect USA. Give me an effin break! And cry me a damn river for some worthless POS terrorist.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
Okay for John McCain to have been tortured?

Apparently the people who captured him thought he did which is why they held and tortured him.

But then again, we were involved in a war, whereas this asshole planned the deaths of thousands of civilians in a cowardly slaughter. I would have no issues if they waterboarded him, his entire family, and all of his co conspirators and then killed them all.

What about all the Vietnam citizens who were cowardly slaughtered? I love people like you that cowardly lack the ability to see issues from the other side. You cowardly act like a tough guy and at the same time cowardly pretend that you believe in freedom and rights.

The fact is, WE ARE THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. At one time we were the most powerful and most honorable country in the world. WE believed in doing what is right and working hard, and upholding freedom and liberty no matter what.

Now we are infested by cowardly people like yourself who do not really believe in things like liberty and justice, but instead use them to allow yourself to cowardly act like an asshole.

We were better than torture. But the cowards choose to take us in a different direction.

Stop ruining our country. Coward.

I dont think the US was ever the most honorable. The US has been doing shady things since WWII. We also turned a blind eye towards the USSR during WWII while they slaughtered more innocent people than the Nazi's.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: jonks
Yeah, lets sacrifice our moral high ground to satisfy a desire for revenge. Terrific.

Here's a clue...no one gives a shit about our moral high ground. That's your own problem. Countries do/should look out for their own best interests, and the U.S. is no different in that regard. It's not about revenge, it's about not getting walked on based on some bullshit ideology that we're "above" it because we're the great perfect USA. Give me an effin break! And cry me a damn river for some worthless POS terrorist.

Now this guy gets it!!!!

you need to post more.

 

[EXman]

Originally posted by: Wreckem

Originally posted by: SirStev0

Originally posted by: bozack

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
Okay for John McCain to have been tortured?

Apparently the people who captured him thought he did which is why they held and tortured him.

But then again, we were involved in a war, whereas this asshole planned the deaths of thousands of civilians in a cowardly slaughter. I would have no issues if they waterboarded him, his entire family, and all of his co conspirators and then killed them all.

What about all the Vietnam citizens who were cowardly slaughtered? I love people like you that cowardly lack the ability to see issues from the other side. You cowardly act like a tough guy and at the same time cowardly pretend that you believe in freedom and rights.

The fact is, WE ARE THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. At one time we were the most powerful and most honorable country in the world. WE believed in doing what is right and working hard, and upholding freedom and liberty no matter what.

Now we are infested by cowardly people like yourself who do not really believe in things like liberty and justice, but instead use them to allow yourself to cowardly act like an asshole.

We were better than torture. But the cowards choose to take us in a different direction.

Stop ruining our country. Coward.

I dont think the US was ever the most honorable. The US has been doing shady things since WWII. We also turned a blind eye towards the USSR during WWII while they slaughtered more innocent people than the Nazi's.

I think you are confused with just after WWII. Stalins slaughter lasted alot longer. He kept killing until 1953.

 

[dwell]

I'll try to feel sorry for KSM while I am thinking about the people who had to choose between jumping off the WTC or getting burned alive.

 

[Jack Flash]

Originally posted by: Chris
I'll try to feel sorry for KSM while I am thinking about the people who had to choose between jumping off the WTC or getting burned alive.

It's not about feeling sorry for him, it's about regretting the lies and shame our government brought on us.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: EXman

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: jonks
Yeah, lets sacrifice our moral high ground to satisfy a desire for revenge. Terrific.

Here's a clue...no one gives a shit about our moral high ground. That's your own problem. Countries do/should look out for their own best interests, and the U.S. is no different in that regard. It's not about revenge, it's about not getting walked on based on some bullshit ideology that we're "above" it because we're the great perfect USA. Give me an effin break! And cry me a damn river for some worthless POS terrorist.

Now this guy gets it!!!!

you need to post more.

Neither of you get it.

 

[dwell]

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
It's not about feeling sorry for him, it's about regretting the lies and shame our government brought on us.

The only thing I regret is how this nation is being brought down by political correctness and faux-morality. Fifty years ago nobody would have batted an eye over KSM's treatment because back then we got shit done. Now we're at the mercy of every liberal whiner with a newspaper column or even worse, a blog.

 

[Jack Flash]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
It's not about feeling sorry for him, it's about regretting the lies and shame our government brought on us.

The only thing I regret is how this nation is being brought down by political correctness and faux-morality. Fifty years ago nobody would have batted an eye over KSM's treatment because back then we got shit done. Now we're at the mercy of every liberal whiner with a newspaper column or even worse, a blog.

Well I'm sure you don't mind when US Soldiers are tortured. Those terrorists are just 'getting shit done'

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Jack Flash

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
It's not about feeling sorry for him, it's about regretting the lies and shame our government brought on us.

The only thing I regret is how this nation is being brought down by political correctness and faux-morality. Fifty years ago nobody would have batted an eye over KSM's treatment because back then we got shit done. Now we're at the mercy of every liberal whiner with a newspaper column or even worse, a blog.

Well I'm sure you don't mind when US Soldiers are tortured. Those terrorists are just 'getting shit done'

Funny...I don't see any citizens of the countries where US soldiers were tortured protesting against their government...oh wait...

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Chris

Originally posted by: Jack Flash
It's not about feeling sorry for him, it's about regretting the lies and shame our government brought on us.

The only thing I regret is how this nation is being brought down by political correctness and faux-morality. Fifty years ago nobody would have batted an eye over KSM's treatment because back then we got shit done.

BZZZZZZT. Fail.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04...l?_r=2&pagewanted=2&hp

Government studies in the 1950s found that Chinese Communist interrogators had produced false confessions from captured American pilots not with some kind of sinister ?brainwashing? but with crude tactics: shackling the Americans to force them to stand for hours, keeping them in cold cells, disrupting their sleep and limiting access to food and hygiene.

?The Communists do not look upon these assaults as ?torture,? ? one 1956 study concluded. ?But all of them produce great discomfort, and lead to serious disturbances of many bodily processes; there is no reason to differentiate them from any other form of torture.?

Worse, the study found that under such abusive treatment, a prisoner became ?malleable and suggestible, and in some instances he may confabulate.?

People like you run around calling Obama a communist for raising taxes 3%, meaning it as a pejorative, and then turn around and criticize fellow Americans who morally object to pursuing tactics identical to communist China. Hypocrisy isn't a big enough word to describe people like you. Maybe Hippocrisy.